Private car sale - Letter of court action

[moooooobss]

Hi everyone

Thanks for your replies. It's very reassuring to know that not one person in this thread agrees with the buyer. The more I have read your replies the more it makes sense that they have probably had their use out of the box over the summer and now don't want it anymore. It just always crosses your mind the worst case scenario in that a judge would side with them and this end up costing us money that we don't have.

A couple of people have said only reply if you receive a intended notice of court action which I guess we technically have in the form of their letter saying they will take my wife to court unless we pay up so I think a clear response is needed. (fYI after a bit of digging I found a template on the citizens advice website that exactly matches the letter sent to us so it's clear that they haven't got any legal advice from a solicitor)

It was sold as described
You viewed it twice and voiced no concerns
It's been under their ownership for nearly 3 months
See you in court

I will keep this thread updated with anymore progress

[alfabadass]

I think the person has a case of buyers remorse.

Taking it for another MOT is a silly and desperate move!

The st they've listed seems like fair wear and tear for a 14yr old vehicle...

[Jasandjules]

Do not say "see you in court" but "In the event that you resort to litigation it is beyond doubt that your claim has no prospects of success however for the avoidance of doubt we will have no alternative but to defend the same and seek any and all costs incurred in so doing" or somesuch.

IF they do lodge a claim, let us know on here......

[Antony Moxey]

moooooobss said:

A couple of people have said only reply if you receive a intended notice of court action which I guess we technically have in the form of their letter saying they will take my wife to court unless we pay up so I think a clear response is needed.

They haven't. They've said only reply if you're served papers from the court itself (or whatever the correct legal term is - IANAL). Theyve just told you what they're going to do (apparently), so until they actually do your clear response is no further communication.

[GT119]

I don't get the bit about the buyer claiming it couldn't have passed the MOT, surely it's there for all to see on the Gov.uk website?

[Durzel]

Stop replying to them.

Look at it this way - they are threatening you with court if you don't refund them. You presumably do not want to do this and don't feel obligated to (you shouldn't). Any reply to them that isn't "here's your money" isn't going to pacify them, but might give the impression further down the line that you were trying to negotiate, i.e. accepting a portion of blame.

If they're serious about taking you to court then that's going to happen regardless of anything you say short of caving to their demands. So let them fill their boots. There is no positive outcome to engaging them in dialogue.

The reality is that if they do seek actual legal advice they will find out how weak their claim is (though this might not stop the case, litigation and settlements happen even when it is never established who is "at fault").

Just sit tight and don't reply to their armchair lawyering.

[Croutons]

ralphrj said:

Breadvan72 drafted a template sale agreement anybody could use for private sales

Utterly wonderful self-aggrandisement as usual, when the AA and plenty of others offer something far less threatening than pompous arse speak and is perfectly fit for purpose.

http://www.theaa.com/car-buying/buyers-sellers-con...

[rallycross]

Croutons said:

Utterly wonderful self-aggrandisement as usual, when the AA and plenty of others offer something far less threatening than pompous arse speak and is perfectly fit for purpose.

http://www.theaa.com/car-buying/buyers-sellers-con...

When I buy cars from private sellers (who generally have no idea what they are doing) I always suggest they print off one of those AA sales forms for us to both fill in after we have agreed on the price.

Then I write on both copies 'no warranty given or implied, sold as seen as inspected by the buyer' (me).
I do this just so its clear for both parties that its a private sale and I am taking all the risk (that's why I got a good deal).

Hence threads like this really piss me off where people take this piss when buying privately with this sort of stuff and try to get one over the seller.

IF a buyer is not savvy enough to take on the risk of buying privately they should go to a dealer and pay a lot more but have some sort of warranty (which may turn out to be worth nothing but at least they do have a strong legal position in pursuing the seller as a trader/dealer 'expert').


I

[Dromedary66]

Croutons said:

ralphrj said:

Breadvan72 drafted a template sale agreement anybody could use for private sales

Utterly wonderful self-aggrandisement as usual, when the AA and plenty of others offer something far less threatening than pompous arse speak and is perfectly fit for purpose.

http://www.theaa.com/car-buying/buyers-sellers-con...

Well said and agreed. I have used the AA's template - works very well.

[EJH]

The AA draft works for a seller...but, in the absence of the vendor giving representation to the effect of, "unencumbered title to the Car," offers no protection to a buyer.

[Rovinghawk]

For your response refer them to the relevant legal case, which is Arkell vs Pressdram (1971)

[Mr2Mike]

EJH said:

The AA draft works for a seller...but, in the absence of the vendor giving representation to the effect of, "unencumbered title to the Car," offers no protection to a buyer.

The entire point is to protect sellers from the kind of time wasting oxygen thieves the OP is being pestered by. If you buy a car privately, it's up to you to ensure it's in the condition you wish.

[Sheepshanks]

rallycross said:

When I buy cars from private sellers (who generally have no idea what they are doing) I always suggest they print off one of those AA sales forms for us to both fill in after we have agreed on the price.

Then I write on both copies 'no warranty given or implied, sold as seen as inspected by the buyer' (me).
I do this just so its clear for both parties that its a private sale and I am taking all the risk (that's why I got a good deal).

How bizzare. Why on earth would you do that, unless you don't trust yourself not to try and take action against the seller in the future?

[TwistingMyMelon]

Dont worry OP, just keep stum and keep all paperwork / notes

There was a very long thread on here regarding a private sale, that ended up in court. The seller was in the same position as you and came on here for advice

Rather comically it ended up in court and from memory the judge threw it out and sided with the seller as it was a private sale, amongst other things

I find it really comical that the buyer of your horsebox is quoting consumer law to you, when you are not a business!

[cj2013]

TwistingMyMelon said:

Dont worry OP, just keep stum and keep all paperwork / notes

There was a very long thread on here regarding a private sale, that ended up in court. The seller was in the same position as you and came on here for advice

Rather comically it ended up in court and from memory the judge threw it out and sided with the seller as it was a private sale, amongst other things

I find it really comical that the buyer of your horsebox is quoting consumer law to you, when you are not a business!

There's probably a thread by the buyer on Mumsnet or Moneysavingexpert, where the internet equivalent of the gobste who props up the end of the bar has been quoting social justice laws that don't exist.

[AlasdairMc]

Rovinghawk said:

For your response refer them to the relevant legal case, which is Arkell vs Pressdram (1971)

Damn you! I was just about to post this.

[EJH]

Mr2Mike said:

The entire point is to protect sellers from the kind of time wasting oxygen thieves the OP is being pestered by. If you buy a car privately, it's up to you to ensure it's in the condition you wish.

Condition, yes…but “unencumbered title,” is written to ensure that the buyer has protection from unrecorded / unregistered liabilities (logbook loans and their ilk) which can’t be easily verified as being recorded against a car.

I have no time for those that buy a vehicle privately and make the spurious claims they have (in this case, some time after the purchase was made and after a season of use) but was merely looking to make the point that the agreement drafted by BV72 was, to my mind, a reasonable sales contract that protected the vendor against tedious buyers and the buyers against sellers engaging in unscrupulous practice (which is pretty much limited to title in a private sale unless specific representations have been made).

[xjay1337]

Nightmare situation. But fingers crossed in your favour (I would bet money on it being in your favour).

[Matty3]

Croutons said:

ralphrj said:

Breadvan72 drafted a template sale agreement anybody could use for private sales

Utterly wonderful self-aggrandisement as usual, when the AA and plenty of others offer something far less threatening than pompous arse speak and is perfectly fit for purpose.

http://www.theaa.com/car-buying/buyers-sellers-con...

Looks pretty reasonable to me and have saved it for my next sale if required

Must admit I am rather tired of selling cars privately - far too much hassle from JP

[jjr1]

Sheepshanks said:

rallycross said:

When I buy cars from private sellers (who generally have no idea what they are doing) I always suggest they print off one of those AA sales forms for us to both fill in after we have agreed on the price.

Then I write on both copies 'no warranty given or implied, sold as seen as inspected by the buyer' (me).
I do this just so its clear for both parties that its a private sale and I am taking all the risk (that's why I got a good deal).

How bizzare. Why on earth would you do that, unless you don't trust yourself not to try and take action against the seller in the future?

I agree. I go for the slightly less complicated approach. I give them the cash or count it depending upon whether buying or selling. I then take or give the V5 depending upon buying or selling.

FFS keep it simple.

Bought and sold a st load of cars privately and never once had comeback. The closest I had was a trader who bought off me a Porsche 911 and then admitting he hadn't properly understood my description of PCM and thought the car had Sat Nav. He sold the car at a huge loss but just laughed it off in a phone call to me sometime later.