Is this parking charge considered excessive?

[mangos]

silverfoxcc said:

I have just seen this, but have a VERY good look at POFA 2012 Section 9

If that letter is all they sent you they seemed to have failed on several points which should be a winner at POLPLA

Remember that have to abide with this all the way through

Of it isnt all of their letter please post it up back and front, with names and references redacted, we might be able to get something out of this

That was all the letter I received.

My appeal has already been submitted though so I don't think there's much I can do now. I did appeal on keeper liability but the parking companies response to that was that they had met all the POFA conditions.

In general my opinion is that the charge either way is unfair as can be demonstrated by the countless reviews left on the Port Of Wells carpark showing that the signage can't be clear as so many people are getting stung by these charges.

I have just checked streetview and it is up to date, but Im not too sure how I could have used that and right now its too late for me anyway.

Im usually so careful with parking. I have 4 parking apps on my phone and don't take risks by not paying just for the fun of it.

[ST2]

Today, 1 March received penalty notice 60/100 pounds for this car park on 14 February saying “ payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage “. Although I paid the £4.50 fee and still have the ticket. I can only assume this is because the payment was outside of the 10 min period ( ticket doesn’t explain)because I have a serious illness and urgently needed the toilet . A look on Wells Harbour site seems this has happened to many others who have paid late because of various problems. Is there any point in appealing this? Others have and it’s not been upheld

[S11Steve]

ST2 said:

Today, 1 March received penalty notice 60/100 pounds for this car park on 14 February saying “ payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage “. Although I paid the £4.50 fee and still have the ticket. I can only assume this is because the payment was outside of the 10 min period ( ticket doesn’t explain)because I have a serious illness and urgently needed the toilet . A look on Wells Harbour site seems this has happened to many others who have paid late because of various problems. Is there any point in appealing this? Others have and it’s not been upheld

I've yet to see any operator agree to an appeal on the first attempt, but they are then overturned at appeal to POPLA.

If you have a ticket (and it is always worthwhile keeping them) then by all means appeal on the grounds that there was no breach of contract as the ticket covers the period the vehicle was parked..
I'm pretty certain that the T&Cs will not state that the ticket must be purchased in the first 10 minutes or whatever.

I've dealt with an appeal against Parking Eye for a friend who paid on exit as she was having a hair cut that she paid the full amount for when she returned to her car as she didn't know how long it would take. PE refused the appeal, but it was upheld by POPLA as the payment she made covered the period of time she was in the car park, and the ticket was purchased whilst the car was there.

[mangos]

My POPLA appeal was unsuccessful

It’s no longer offering me a reduced £60 charge but saying I have to pay the full £100

[S11Steve]

Ok you have two options and only you will know what's best for you.

You can pay it, and it will go away. How much is your time and peace of mind worth?

Or, you can tough it out, and continue to contest it, but CEL are litigious, granted, not the most successful in court, and you do have some valid defence points that I would be happy to stand in front of a judge with. But out is a long and messy process. CEL will often fold before it goes as far as a hearing, but it's still a lot of hassle, especially if it's all a bit new to you.

Personally speaking, I'm not afraid of these companies, I know their tricks and I'm also paid to do this as part of my role, so I'd be happy to run up their legal bills.

[Red Devil]

S11Steve said:

Ok you have two options and only you will know what's best for you.

You can pay it, and it will go away. How much is your time and peace of mind worth?

Or, you can tough it out, and continue to contest it, but CEL are litigious, granted, not the most successful in court, and you do have some valid defence points that I would be happy to stand in front of a judge with. But out is a long and messy process. CEL will often fold before it goes as far as a hearing, but it's still a lot of hassle, especially if it's all a bit new to you.

Personally speaking, I'm not afraid of these companies, I know their tricks and I'm also paid to do this as part of my role, so I'd be happy to run up their legal bills.

^^This^^

It might help others if we knew exactly what the OP put in the appeal and what the adjudicator's reason/s was/were for finding in favour of the PPC.

[mangos]

Red Devil said:

S11Steve said:

Ok you have two options and only you will know what's best for you.

You can pay it, and it will go away. How much is your time and peace of mind worth?

Or, you can tough it out, and continue to contest it, but CEL are litigious, granted, not the most successful in court, and you do have some valid defence points that I would be happy to stand in front of a judge with. But out is a long and messy process. CEL will often fold before it goes as far as a hearing, but it's still a lot of hassle, especially if it's all a bit new to you.

Personally speaking, I'm not afraid of these companies, I know their tricks and I'm also paid to do this as part of my role, so I'd be happy to run up their legal bills.

^^This^^

It might help others if we knew exactly what the OP put in the appeal and what the adjudicator's reason/s was/were for finding in favour of the PPC.

My appeal was nonsense. I realised after I had submitted it that I hadn't put the things I needed to.

The POPLA system unfortunately doesn't give a reason as to it failing so I don't know for sure.

I just called Civil Enforcemnt Ltd and spoke to an actual person and offered to pay £60 and saying that I am happy to put that in writing to them on the basis that I didn't see any signage, and that it is clear the signage isn't sufficient and I can demonstrate that others have had the same happen to them.

They were exceptionally rude and said that its £100 or a court summons. I probably should have just paid up when the ticket arrived rather than wasting time.

[Saudade]

S11Steve said:

I've yet to see any operator agree to an appeal on the first attempt, but they are then overturned at appeal to POPLA.

If you have a ticket (and it is always worthwhile keeping them) then by all means appeal on the grounds that there was no breach of contract as the ticket covers the period the vehicle was parked..
I'm pretty certain that the T&Cs will not state that the ticket must be purchased in the first 10 minutes or whatever.

I've dealt with an appeal against Parking Eye for a friend who paid on exit as she was having a hair cut that she paid the full amount for when she returned to her car as she didn't know how long it would take. PE refused the appeal, but it was upheld by POPLA as the payment she made covered the period of time she was in the car park, and the ticket was purchased whilst the car was there.

I've had CEL agree to my appeal on the first attempt. What most people get wrong is that they tell a story, such as "I tried to pay but didn't the app didn't work in time" or "I was having a poo and didn't pay in time".

Effectively admitting they have not paid in accordance with the terms on the signage.

Simply stating that you reject the PCN, won't be admitting who was driving and no assumptions can be made, that their signage is inadequate, and that they have no agreed contract with you is all you need to say.

Anything else is just going to hurt you rather than help, as far as you're concerned you weren't even out the house on the day in question. It's up to them to prove you were there, didn't pay, the signage is correct, the ANPR system is calibrated etc.

[Red Devil]

mangos said:

My appeal was nonsense. I realised after I had submitted it that I hadn't put the things I needed to.

Unfortunately this is an all too common problem and why people fail at the POPLA appeal stage.
The time to ask for advice is before discharging your pistol. By waiting until afterwards you may discover you have shot yourself in the foot.
I have seen it time and again.

Btw, you need to be aware that if the PPC fails at POPLA the decision is binding on it: game over:
Not so for the appellant. The matter can be decided by a judge should the PPC decide to issue a claim.
The choice of which way to jump (cave and pay or wait and, if necessary, defend) is entirely yours.

mangos said:

The POPLA system unfortunately doesn't give a reason as to it failing so I don't know for sure.

Trust me, the answer will be there: you just haven't realised or figured it out yet.

mangos said:

I just called Civil Enforcemnt Ltd and spoke to an actual person and offered to pay £60 and saying that I am happy to put that in writing to them on the basis that I didn't see any signage, and that it is clear the signage isn't sufficient and I can demonstrate that others have had the same happen to them.

They were exceptionally rude and said that its £100 or a court summons.

No surprised there then. What on earth possessed you to do that? You're making a fundamental mistake in thinking you're dealing with reasonable people.
The PPC in question is one of the bottom feeders as any proper research will demonstrate. It relies on people's ignorance of the rules of the game.
It is only interested in extracting the maximum amount of your money. S11Steve knows more than most on here about how to deal with them.
The majority of MoPs have little or no experience of court and are panicked/fazed by the prospect. PPCs know this and trade on that fact.

mangos said:

I probably should have just paid up when the ticket arrived rather than wasting time.

A typically human reaction to a (temporary) setback. Paul Anka wrote the lyrics of a very famous song about regrets.

YHPM.

[Pica-Pica]

About 4 years back, I got a demand from Parking Eye. The usual £60 now or £100 later. The times and pictures were correct. I simply wrote back saying that I had exited by stepping over a low wall and no signage was evident by that route. I enclosed a cheque for double what the council charge would have been (about £6). I said, cash it by 6 Jan (two weeks time) and I will deem you to have accepted this payment, if you do not cash it by then, I will deem you to have waived the payment and I will cancel the cheque. They cashed it.

I am not sure if that would work nowadays.

[WinstonWolf]

OP, was it this car park?

[S11Steve]

WinstonWolf said:

OP, was it this car park?

NR23 1AT - Port of Wells next to the Golf Course. The one in the picture I think is a council car park, a few hundred yards away.

[mangos]

WinstonWolf said:

OP, was it this car park?

Yes this is the car park , The car was parked right there looking out to sea

Edited by mangos on Tuesday 5th March 17:51

[S11Steve]

mangos said:

WinstonWolf said:

OP, was it this car park?

Yes this is the car park , The car was parked right there looking out to sea

Edited by mangos on Tuesday 5th March 17:51

If that's the site, then that sure is likely to be covered under bylaws, and CEL are unable to enforce that through the usual process.

We've had loads of tickets from CEL for the site further up from there, and I thought that is where you were.

That may be a curve ball that works in your favour, but I'll check in the morning when I'm back at my desk.

Edited by S11Steve on Wednesday 6th March 11:54

[mangos]

S11Steve said:

mangos said:

WinstonWolf said:

OP, was it this car park?

Yes this is the car park , The car was parked right there looking out to sea

Edited by mangos on Tuesday 5th March 17:51

If that's the free, then that sure is likely to be covered under bylaws, and CEL are unable to enforce that through the usual process.

Serve had loads of tickets from CEL for the site further up from there, and I thought that is where you were.

That may be a curve ball that works in your favour, but I'll check in the morning when I'm back at my desk.

Thanks so much Steve for checking tomorrow.

[S11Steve]

I'm leaving this here as a reminder to myself - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1440/made

[Red Devil]

Now that IS interesting: especially Section11(1)(a) which puts the Commissioners on the same footing as a local authority.
What powers do they have to bring in a private company which operates under PoFA 2012 rather than the statutory regime which applies to a LA?

It's the same type of 'not relevant land' issue which bedevils parking at railway stations where the TOC has sub-contracted car park 'management' out to a PPC.
The government simply wants to carry on delaying a solution - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/470450/resp...

I've just realised that I've been to that very car park just over a year ago. However I definitely don't recall there being any PPC signage back then.
Only the Harbour Commissioners blue ones that you can see in Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/meEkDyLJCWK2
Mind you the situation could easily have changed since then.

[mangos]

Red Devil said:

Now that IS interesting: especially Section11(1)(a) which puts the Commissioners on the same footing as a local authority.
What powers do they have to bring in a private company which operates under PoFA 2012 rather than the statutory regime which applies to a LA?

It's the same type of 'not relevant land' issue which bedevils parking at railway stations where the TOC has sub-contracted car park 'management' out to a PPC.
The government simply wants to carry on delaying a solution - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/470450/resp...

I've just realised that I've been to that very car park just over a year ago. However I definitely don't recall there being any PPC signage back then.
Only the Harbour Commissioners blue ones that you can see in Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/meEkDyLJCWK2
Mind you the situation could easily have changed since then.

I cant remember seeing any signage relating to a PPC.
The streetview looks the same as I remember it, but I haven't been able to go back to check.

[S11Steve]

Ok, bylaws are in place at the harbour, but I'm waiting on a reply from them with a map showing the exact coverage.

They seemed a bit upset when I explained that the private company may struggle to properly enforce parking restrictions when bylaws are in place.

If/when it is confirmed that the bylaws do cover that car park, there is nothing that CEL can do to enforce their £100 charge.

[xjay1337]

jm doc said:

S11Steve said:

jm doc said:

How did you pursue this, who awards the compensation?

Not something I have personally done as my fleet is registered to a Ltd company and different aspects of DPA come in to play, but I do know of 2 people that just went down the small claims route and each successfully claimed £750 + court fees. One was uncontested though I believe - the parking company paid up on receipt of the claim..
There is a precedent set at one of the higher courts that dictates that £750 is not an unreasonable figure for such a breach.

There's more background and info on the process here - https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/data-protection-a...

Thanks Steve, despite sending a cease and desist notice to a parking company who having been trying to claim money despite having written permission from the landowner to park there, they have continued to process my data unlawfully. Their shear arrogance is breathtaking, they clearly think they are bulletproof and unchallengable.

On a side note, my mrs went for a job - was accepted, had to provide the usual crap, 5 years of address history, bank account, passport , driving license.
the company have "lost" these. she could apply the same logic to that and sue them?

i wouldn't care but they make a bit point on their website about valuing private data, and haven't so much as apologised.