Scratch on colleagues car
Discussion
I’m failing to see how there can be any shades of grey in all this. In my experience this can only be a binary situation, you either did scratch the car, or you didn’t.
I cannot remember a single situation in any car park, ever, where I’ve been unsure as to whether I’ve touched, let alone scratched, a car.
Maybe I’m weird though!
I cannot remember a single situation in any car park, ever, where I’ve been unsure as to whether I’ve touched, let alone scratched, a car.
Maybe I’m weird though!
Armadillo 43 said:
If it goes to court, they will surely have to give you/your lawyer the video under rules requiring disclosure of any evidence which might support you. Point this out, and they may see sense and show you now; the 'security reasons' stuff is codswallop.
Your story still sounds incomplete, but their claim sounds no more than a fishing expedition with nothing to back it up. It's tempting to say: tell them to take a running jump, but the sensible course is probably to seek a solicitor's opinion; if thats as far as it goes, it won't cost a lot.
Why do people keep bringing up courts and the police? It has nothing to do with that. It’s an employment matter and the burden of proof is much much lower. Your story still sounds incomplete, but their claim sounds no more than a fishing expedition with nothing to back it up. It's tempting to say: tell them to take a running jump, but the sensible course is probably to seek a solicitor's opinion; if thats as far as it goes, it won't cost a lot.
garyhun said:
I’m failing to see how there can be any shades of grey in all this. In my experience this can only be a binary situation, you either did scratch the car, or you didn’t.
I cannot remember a single situation in any car park, ever, where I’ve been unsure as to whether I’ve touched, let alone scratched, a car.
Maybe I’m weird though!
I’m completely with you on this. I keep going back to the OP saying that he remembers walking past and might have scratched it. I cannot remember a single situation in any car park, ever, where I’ve been unsure as to whether I’ve touched, let alone scratched, a car.
Maybe I’m weird though!
graylag said:
My take is the employers possibly have enough circumstantial evidence for a disciplinary but are hoping to avoid it by letting the OP confess and pay for the damage. The moment it gets to the stage of “show me the video and then I’ll decide whether I’m going to own up or not” tends to suggest that they’ll save that for disciplinary. It also sort of damns the OP as well. Equally the BMW owner may be happy with the damage being paid for rather than a disciplinary and no payment.
This is what is concerning me. Assuming it's not some made up load of nonsense either by the OP or his employer then there is some circumstantial evidence that could persuade an employer. As has been said this doesn't need to meet evidential thresholds, and doesn't need to lead to a dismissal either. The employer will be closer examined on whether they followed procedure than whether they should have come to the conclusion they did unless it is completely left field. If the sequence of events was BMW driver says "When I parked my car this morning there was no scratch, when I came back there was a scratch". Then they check CCTV and low and behold someone is at the car where the scratch is in a manner that they could have caused the scratch. It's only one person and that person appears to get into a car that means it's the OP. I take from that it's not an obvious route since the OP is the only person going that way. There is a lot to suggest it was the OP. Yes the BMW driver could be mistaken as to when the damage was caused but it wouldn't be completely unreasonable to be persuaded that the OP was responsible, especially given their strange response.
Equally it would be pretty hard for a vindictive employer to decide they want to sack the OP Then they decide to troll CCTV find them passing a car (But not to the extent that they can be directly identified) then rope in the car owner to lie about the damage. Which would mean they had existing damage in the right place, damaged it as part of the conspiracy or invented the damage as well.
Nothing would surprise me but they have no proof is seldom the way to go.
Well since contacting the BMW guy he has claimed the damage totals a couple of k worth of damage plus because it’s a limited edition paint job and panels might need to be taken off but he hasn’t provided the photos I asked for.
He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
Edited by Aiminghigh123 on Monday 17th December 21:46
Aiminghigh123 said:
Well since contacting the BMW guy he has claimed the damage totals a couple of k worth of damage plus because it’s a limited edition paint job and panels might need to be taken off but he hasn’t provided the photos I asked for.
He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
Based on that I stand by my original comment of tell both your colleague and employer should they become involved to get stuffed in the nicest possible way until you are presented with evidence you scratched the car He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
Edited by Aiminghigh123 on Monday 17th December 21:46
Aiminghigh123 said:
Well since contacting the BMW guy he has claimed the damage totals a couple of k worth of damage plus because it’s a limited edition paint job and panels might need to be taken off but he hasn’t provided the photos I asked for.
He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
You’re still not answering my question about whether the BMW was parked on a pedestrian walkway. Let me make this clearer. He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
Edited by Aiminghigh123 on Monday 17th December 21:46
In a car park there will be an exit point for pedestrians and there will usually be a gap where people shouldn’t park so that pedestrians can walk through. Most parking spaces don’t line up adjacent to these and simply are just bays with a brickwall at the back.
Was the BMW in one of these spaces adjacent to the walkway? If so it seems very strange that you’re the only one to walk past it on the day in question.
If not, why do you remember walking past it? Surely there’s no reason to, unless you were parked next to it.
graylag said:
You’re still not answering my question about whether the BMW was parked on a pedestrian walkway. Let me make this clearer.
In a car park there will be an exit point for pedestrians and there will usually be a gap where people shouldn’t park so that pedestrians can walk through. Most parking spaces don’t line up adjacent to these and simply are just bays with a brickwall at the back.
Was the BMW in one of these spaces adjacent to the walkway? If so it seems very strange that you’re the only one to walk past it on the day in question.
If not, why do you remember walking past it? Surely there’s no reason to, unless you were parked next to it.
Bull. There are many car parks where there are rows of cars and people just squeeze past.In a car park there will be an exit point for pedestrians and there will usually be a gap where people shouldn’t park so that pedestrians can walk through. Most parking spaces don’t line up adjacent to these and simply are just bays with a brickwall at the back.
Was the BMW in one of these spaces adjacent to the walkway? If so it seems very strange that you’re the only one to walk past it on the day in question.
If not, why do you remember walking past it? Surely there’s no reason to, unless you were parked next to it.
eg https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/abbey+wood,+b...
park in the middle of a row and squeeze past every car to get to the other side...
mbcx4jrh said:
graylag said:
You’re still not answering my question about whether the BMW was parked on a pedestrian walkway. Let me make this clearer.
In a car park there will be an exit point for pedestrians and there will usually be a gap where people shouldn’t park so that pedestrians can walk through. Most parking spaces don’t line up adjacent to these and simply are just bays with a brickwall at the back.
Was the BMW in one of these spaces adjacent to the walkway? If so it seems very strange that you’re the only one to walk past it on the day in question.
If not, why do you remember walking past it? Surely there’s no reason to, unless you were parked next to it.
Bull. There are many car parks where there are rows of cars and people just squeeze past.In a car park there will be an exit point for pedestrians and there will usually be a gap where people shouldn’t park so that pedestrians can walk through. Most parking spaces don’t line up adjacent to these and simply are just bays with a brickwall at the back.
Was the BMW in one of these spaces adjacent to the walkway? If so it seems very strange that you’re the only one to walk past it on the day in question.
If not, why do you remember walking past it? Surely there’s no reason to, unless you were parked next to it.
eg https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/abbey+wood,+b...
park in the middle of a row and squeeze past every car to get to the other side...
graylag said:
Aiminghigh123 said:
Well since contacting the BMW guy he has claimed the damage totals a couple of k worth of damage plus because it’s a limited edition paint job and panels might need to be taken off but he hasn’t provided the photos I asked for.
He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
You’re still not answering my question about whether the BMW was parked on a pedestrian walkway. Let me make this clearer. He has also just pushed it over to our manager and wants him to sort it. He also claims that the evidence is clear who walked past his car but hasn’t seen the evidence himself.
I have spoken with the car park security and honestly I doubt they have information as they don’t seem like they could organize a piss up in a brewery. The guy I spoke to wasn’t even sure if they keep the cctv for more than a couple of days and admitted half the car park isn’t actually covered by cctv. They only have 1 camera that can see the entrance and can scan round a bit but it’s mainly there to see if people get stuck leaving/entering the car park.
There is no walkway between any of the cars and you do have to walk between cars unless you park on row 1 which is always full. Ok you can walk around the cars following the road but that would be ridiculous the rows of cars are about 20 long before the first road.
I am certain this guy is trying to claim it happened at this car park when he hasn’t said he checked his car before work only after work when it was daylight.
I have never been late to work without letting them know, eg broke down on way to work which happened once. I have had a very small issue with a colleague at work but it wasn’t this person and that has been resolved between me and the person involved. If they are trying to take me down surely they would have me on disciplinary already? Anyway as it so happens I have already been looking at moving on so CVs are already out.
Just to add the police got notified at the time, this was 4 months ago apparently.
Edited by Aiminghigh123 on Monday 17th December 21:46
In a car park there will be an exit point for pedestrians and there will usually be a gap where people shouldn’t park so that pedestrians can walk through. Most parking spaces don’t line up adjacent to these and simply are just bays with a brickwall at the back.
Was the BMW in one of these spaces adjacent to the walkway? If so it seems very strange that you’re the only one to walk past it on the day in question.
If not, why do you remember walking past it? Surely there’s no reason to, unless you were parked next to it.
I don’t remember exactly walking past it I could have done. It is an M3 so when seeing a car like that usually think oh look M3/M5/AMG/GT2/Lambo/RS6/RS4/Porsche/Ferrari etc etc there not that rare but usually see at least 3-4 in the car park at any one time, and I did say before I didn’t know what car he had until manager told me. 9 times out of 10 I would be head down looking at my phone checking the roads before I get in my car and drive home.
Edited by Aiminghigh123 on Tuesday 18th December 08:15
Aiminghigh123 said:
I already said there are no walkways at all.
Right, so no walkways, which means you’re squeezing between cars, which I’m presuming are parked fairly close to each other like in the car park example given above by the other poster. If you’re carrying your bag / jacket / zip in such a way that it could scratch another car then it’s not that ridiculous to expect you to walk round is it? I wouldn’t dream of squeezing between cars for exactly this reason, you obviously see things differently. graylag said:
Aiminghigh123 said:
I already said there are no walkways at all.
Right, so no walkways, which means you’re squeezing between cars, which I’m presuming are parked fairly close to each other like in the car park example given above by the other poster. If you’re carrying your bag / jacket / zip in such a way that it could scratch another car then it’s not that ridiculous to expect you to walk round is it? I wouldn’t dream of squeezing between cars for exactly this reason, you obviously see things differently. graylag said:
Right, so no walkways, which means you’re squeezing between cars, which I’m presuming are parked fairly close to each other like in the car park example given above by the other poster. If you’re carrying your bag / jacket / zip in such a way that it could scratch another car then it’s not that ridiculous to expect you to walk round is it? I wouldn’t dream of squeezing between cars for exactly this reason, you obviously see things differently.
If you kept up and read the posts properly you would have already realised this. Would a bag/jacket/zip creat a scratch similar to being keyed down the full length of the car as you brush past?
Would you notice if your car had been "keyed" down the entire length?
How does the BMW driver know the damage occured that day?
Could the damage have occured at any other time?
Why did it take them 4 months to contact OP?
What happened in the 2 months between it allegedly happening and the OP going off on parental leave?
pavarotti1980 said:
graylag said:
Right, so no walkways, which means you’re squeezing between cars, which I’m presuming are parked fairly close to each other like in the car park example given above by the other poster. If you’re carrying your bag / jacket / zip in such a way that it could scratch another car then it’s not that ridiculous to expect you to walk round is it? I wouldn’t dream of squeezing between cars for exactly this reason, you obviously see things differently.
If you kept up and read the posts properly you would have already realised this. Would a bag/jacket/zip creat a scratch similar to being keyed down the full length of the car as you brush past?
Would you notice if your car had been "keyed" down the entire length?
How does the BMW driver know the damage occured that day?
Could the damage have occured at any other time?
Why did it take them 4 months to contact OP?
What happened in the 2 months between it allegedly happening and the OP going off on parental leave?
Aiminghigh123 said:
This is what I don’t understand coupled with the fact I haven’t seen any photos of the scratches despite asking and CCTV “evidence” can’t be shown to me, however since my initial posts I have asked the car park company and they’re not sure they even have the CCTV anymore. They don’t even remember an incident happening. Surely they would remember a complaint or have a record of it?
I stick with the shove it up their arse route. If he has multiple incidents which require insurance and then a nice scratch he is is hoping that someone coughs up for his excess and gets all damage done in one go.
At first I did feel bad thinking have I walked between someone’s car and scratched it by mistake not realizing, I’m sure I would remember!!!
If it happened to me I would have all photos evidence ready then go and ask the person and show them.
I have asked for photos CCTV and no one has sent me anything. Now I’m standing my ground with no evidence why am I being accused?
I got taken to court regarding a bar bill we never paid for a huge party we had, I had paid half but subsequently we had gone over the tab. I didn’t pay it due to disagreements relating to other things relating to the day. I demanded to see a bill for 10 months and it never materialized.
In court I had every email/correspondence and I had sent them copy’s.
The company which turns over millions every year turned up with nothing but a big shot lawyer, they didn’t even have the evidence I had sent them. Judge ruled in 5 mins on compensation for us.
Deja Vu?
If it happened to me I would have all photos evidence ready then go and ask the person and show them.
I have asked for photos CCTV and no one has sent me anything. Now I’m standing my ground with no evidence why am I being accused?
I got taken to court regarding a bar bill we never paid for a huge party we had, I had paid half but subsequently we had gone over the tab. I didn’t pay it due to disagreements relating to other things relating to the day. I demanded to see a bill for 10 months and it never materialized.
In court I had every email/correspondence and I had sent them copy’s.
The company which turns over millions every year turned up with nothing but a big shot lawyer, they didn’t even have the evidence I had sent them. Judge ruled in 5 mins on compensation for us.
Deja Vu?
Aiminghigh123 said:
At first I did feel bad thinking have I walked between someone’s car and scratched it by mistake not realizing, I’m sure I would remember!!!
If it happened to me I would have all photos evidence ready then go and ask the person and show them.
I have asked for photos CCTV and no one has sent me anything. Now I’m standing my ground with no evidence why am I being accused?
I got taken to court regarding a bar bill we never paid for a huge party we had, I had paid half but subsequently we had gone over the tab. I didn’t pay it due to disagreements relating to other things relating to the day. I demanded to see a bill for 10 months and it never materialized.
In court I had every email/correspondence and I had sent them copy’s.
The company which turns over millions every year turned up with nothing but a big shot lawyer, they didn’t even have the evidence I had sent them. Judge ruled in 5 mins on compensation for us.
Deja Vu?
How big was the bar bill If it happened to me I would have all photos evidence ready then go and ask the person and show them.
I have asked for photos CCTV and no one has sent me anything. Now I’m standing my ground with no evidence why am I being accused?
I got taken to court regarding a bar bill we never paid for a huge party we had, I had paid half but subsequently we had gone over the tab. I didn’t pay it due to disagreements relating to other things relating to the day. I demanded to see a bill for 10 months and it never materialized.
In court I had every email/correspondence and I had sent them copy’s.
The company which turns over millions every year turned up with nothing but a big shot lawyer, they didn’t even have the evidence I had sent them. Judge ruled in 5 mins on compensation for us.
Deja Vu?
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