Dual carriageway or no dual carriageway?

[anonymous-user]

The initial message was deleted from this topic on 14 November 2022 at 09:34

[ging84]

yes it is dual carriageway, you see the round blue arrow sign pointing left at the start, and the 2 way traffic red triangle sign at the end, so it is 70, but i wouldn't recommend it.

[Marcellus]

Regardless of signage as there are 4 kerbs then yes dual carriageway.

[Swervin_Mervin]

It's single lane dualling. It's not d/c. Limit is 60.

[ashleyman]

I’d have said it’s a DC as there’s a central reservations area so 70 but in the presence of Police or a speed camera I’d probably do 60 just to be safe.

[jchesh]

Swervin_Mervin said:

It's single lane dualling. It's not d/c. Limit is 60.

If there's a central reservation (kerbs or no kerbs) it's a dual carriageway, irrespective of number of lanes in each direction. Speed limit is 70. That said, I wouldn't be doing 70 here in all likelihood due to the junctions to the left and right.

[Pica-Pica]

jchesh said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

It's single lane dualling. It's not d/c. Limit is 60.

If there's a central reservation (kerbs or no kerbs) it's a dual carriageway, irrespective of number of lanes in each direction. Speed limit is 70. That said, I wouldn't be doing 70 here in all likelihood due to the junctions to the left and right.

..agreed, and there is also a bus stop, but in the absence of signs, that would be 70 on that stretch.

[Swervin_Mervin]

It is formally known as single lane dualling. It is not fully dualled D2AP. It is 60mph.

It's used at side roads on higher speed roads with hard strips in place of more simple ghost island right turn lane junctions

[Cat]

ging84 said:

yes it is dual carriageway, you see the round blue arrow sign pointing left at the start, and the 2 way traffic red triangle sign at the end, so it is 70, but i wouldn't recommend it.

If it was a dual carriageway the warning signs would be for end of dual carriageway not as they are for 2 way traffic.

Cat

[Cat]

Swervin_Mervin said:

It is formally known as single lane dualling. It is not fully dualled D2AP. It is 60mph.

It's used at side roads on higher speed roads with hard strips in place of more simple ghost island right turn lane junctions

Unless you can provide a link to the legislation I'd suggest you are making this up. The Road Traffic Regulation Act makes no mention of single lane dualling let alone specific speed limits for it.

Cat

[Pica-Pica]

I am converted.

I believe there would be a start of dual carriageway sign at beginning of the split, if it were a true dual carriageway. To be honest, I have never heard of the term ‘single lane dualling’ in any booklets for driving (on line or printed) aimed at the road user, nor anywhere else. Another school day.

As others have said, it appears too hazardous for 70mph, given the junctions, and I certainly would not accelerate up to 70 from 60. In fact if the road was clear and I was travelling at 60 and I approached that set-up, I would be lifting off and scanning the side roads.

Edited by Pica-Pica on Friday 11th January 00:50

[jchesh]

Nonsense. The Highway Code makes no distinction here: 'A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.' That's it. The section of road in the OP is way longer than those sorts of islands at junctions.

And what about this here: A5 https://goo.gl/maps/2zT32GstXtq ? There is no real warning or keep left arrow or other signage signifying the fact that it's a dual carriageway, which it nevertheless is. (The reason I've starred it in g. maps is because I once nearly massively crashed my bike at 70 mph at night in the rain there (heading onto the d.c.) and didn't see the muddy grass central reservation until I started riding onto it because the carriageway bears left slightly at that point.)

Edited by jchesh on Friday 11th January 01:34

[Cat]

jchesh said:

Nonsense. The Highway Code makes no distinction here: 'A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.' That's it.

And what about this here: A5 https://goo.gl/maps/2zT32GstXtq ? There is no real warning or keep left arrow or other signage signifying the fact that it's a dual carriageway, which it nevertheless is. (The reason I've starred it in g. maps is because I once nearly massively crashed my bike at 70 mph at night in the rain there (heading onto the d.c.) and didn't see the muddy grass central reservation until I started riding onto it because the carriageway bears left slightly at that point.)

Unfortunately the highway code isn't legislation though. The relevant definitions are in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions

A dual carriageway road is defined as:

TSRGD 2016 said:

a road which comprises a central reservation

A "central reservation" is defined as:

TSRGD 2016 said:

(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or

(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,

which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction

There is no definition of what constitutes a traffic island but is is clear from the wording that not all permanent works amount to a central reservation.

The signage in the 2 locations posted is different. The one you have posted has warning signs for end of dual carriageway the original link doesn't. The reason for that is because the first link has a series of traffic islands intended to protect traffic turning right as opposed to a central reservation.

Cat

[Red Devil]

^^This^^

In the A30 example some bright spark has reversed one of the triangular signs beside the oncoming carriageway.
https://goo.gl/maps/BvnGH53dQ1y

The sign is Diagram 521. If it were a D/C they would be Diagram 520.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedu...

[Riley Blue]

Cat said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

It is formally known as single lane dualling. It is not fully dualled D2AP. It is 60mph.

It's used at side roads on higher speed roads with hard strips in place of more simple ghost island right turn lane junctions

Unless you can provide a link to the legislation I'd suggest you are making this up. The Road Traffic Regulation Act makes no mention of single lane dualling let alone specific speed limits for it.

Cat

See page 1/2, (figure 1/3) here: http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/ha/standards...

[jchesh]

Riley Blue said:

See page 1/2, (figure 1/3) here: http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/ha/standards...

'...in which central reservation islands are shaped and located...'

I see nothing in any of this legislation that excludes these types of areas from the definition of 'carriageways separated by a central reservation'. Can someone point towards a piece of legislation or definition which explicitly excludes, in terms of speed limits, areas of single-lane dualling from being classified as dual-carriageway, or which specifies certain sign combinations as defining pieces of road as dual-carriageway and others as not? I would have thought there's a clue in the word 'dualling' as to whether these areas are areas of dual-carriageway.

Edited by jchesh on Friday 11th January 07:51

[Cat]

Riley Blue said:

See page 1/2, (figure 1/3) here: http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/ha/standards...

Thanks, however that is nothing to do with speed limits.

Cat

[Cat]

jchesh said:

'...in which central reservation islands are shaped and located...'

I see nothing in any of this legislation that excludes these types of areas from the definition of 'carriageways separated by a central reservation'. Can someone point towards a piece of legislation or definition which explicitly excludes, in terms of speed limits, areas of single-lane dualling from being classified as dual-carriageway, or which specifies certain sign combinations as defining pieces of road as dual-carriageway and others as not? I would have thought there's a clue in the word 'dualling' as to whether these areas are areas of dual-carriageway.

TSRGD 2016 said:

any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road

The legislation is quite clear, islands don't constitute central reservations.

Cat

[Marcellus]

Cat said:

A dual carriageway road is defined as:

TSRGD 2016 said:

a road which comprises a central reservation

A "central reservation" is defined as:

TSRGD 2016 said:

(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or

(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,

which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction

Cat

So the OPs example is a dual carriageway within a national speed limit therefore the limit is 70?

[Cat]

Marcellus said:

So the OPs example is a dual carriageway within a national speed limit therefore the limit is 70?

No, the road in the OP has traffic islands, not a central reservation, so is a 60mph limit.

Cat