Employee crashes van in their own time

[Jag_NE]

FWIW said:

Strikes me as a bit stty to force the staff to take the van home (as the employer doesn’t have space to store them) and then prohibit personal use. Not to mention the amount of time your son must spend checking the tracker records for 10 vans... (he doesn’t really do that, does he...)

Yup. And those lovely vans will no doubt be bellied up on pavements and parked in streets not moving all weekend because the staff probably won’t have storage for them.

[roadsmash]

FWIW said:

shovelheadrob said:

Thanks for all the input so far, he does have trackers on all vehicles & the drivers taking the vehicles home works better for all concerned as it gives better coverage for reactive maintenance, which is the core demand of his business & he doesn't have storage/parking readily available for parking 10 vans. This is the first time anyone has done this, he regularly monitors the trackers & will be writing/emailing all employees to remind them that non business use is gross misconduct with the associated repercussions.
I'm done for tonight, supposed to be on holiday, I'll be back in the morning

Strikes me as a bit stty to force the staff to take the van home (as the employer doesn’t have space to store them) and then prohibit personal use. Not to mention the amount of time your son must spend checking the tracker records for 10 vans... (he doesn’t really do that, does he...)

Agreed.

OP tell your son to insure them for personal use.

It just makes everything easier.

[MDMA .]

FWIW said:

MDMA . said:

You'd just set the parameters to ping for certain events. Heavy acceleration/braking. Over certain mph in set zones etc. No need to monitor constantly. Daily/weekly reports are easy to print off.

Sure, but How would any of that highlight personal use?

The trackers will list all movements at all times. You can set them to report between certain hours too. So, before/after 7am - 7pm. Normal 9-5 jobs would have finished commuting by then. Finding out who uses a vehicle for personal use is easy.

[Countdown]

Jag_NE said:

FWIW said:

Strikes me as a bit stty to force the staff to take the van home (as the employer doesn’t have space to store them) and then prohibit personal use. Not to mention the amount of time your son must spend checking the tracker records for 10 vans... (he doesn’t really do that, does he...)

Yup. And those lovely vans will no doubt be bellied up on pavements and parked in streets not moving all weekend because the staff probably won’t have storage for them.

On the plus side the employee doesn’t have to drive back to base first thing in the morning / last thing before clocking off, he can drive directly between home and job location, so no time or fuel wasted on commute.

[shovelheadrob]

KungFuPanda said:

The insurer of your son's van has a duty under the Road Traffic Act to settle all third party claims whether that employee was legally driving the vehicle at the time of the accident or not.

If indeed the employee was driving outside of the course of his employment and outside of the terms of the insurgance coverage, the insurers will seek to recover their outlay from the driver.

Your son needs to collate all the evidence he has to confirm he had in place a system and records to prove the fact that all employees knew they were not allowed to use the vans outside of the course of business or commuting.

Thanks, I wasn't sure on the legal standing on this, we'll find out more today hopefully.

[SmoothCriminal]

Countdown said:

Jag_NE said:

FWIW said:

Strikes me as a bit stty to force the staff to take the van home (as the employer doesn’t have space to store them) and then prohibit personal use. Not to mention the amount of time your son must spend checking the tracker records for 10 vans... (he doesn’t really do that, does he...)

Yup. And those lovely vans will no doubt be bellied up on pavements and parked in streets not moving all weekend because the staff probably won’t have storage for them.

On the plus side the employee doesn’t have to drive back to base first thing in the morning / last thing before clocking off, he can drive directly between home and job location, so no time or fuel wasted on commute.

Isn't this just a way companies scrimp on yard space and clog up residential streets with sign written vans.

[shovelheadrob]

Countdown said:

On the plus side the employee doesn’t have to drive back to base first thing in the morning / last thing before clocking off, he can drive directly between home and job location, so no time or fuel wasted on commute.

This is the main reason for taking the vans home, no one is forced to do it, it probably saves over 50 hours of driving each week, more earnings for the employee (they earn far more working than travelling) & more profit for the company, less pollution etc etc.

[megaphone]

Very naive of your son not to have them fully insured, did he really think they would not be used outside of work? Not really fair on his workers. What happens if they need to move the van, off the drive or up the road to a different parking spot?

I'm actually surprised the insurance company offer such a policy. Hopefully for all involved it will be covered.

Are they actually employees? Or are they sub contractors?

Edited by megaphone on Wednesday 23 January 09:05

[shovelheadrob]

SmoothCriminal said:

Isn't this just a way companies scrimp on yard space and clog up residential streets with sign written vans.

That's one way to look at it, another way is that suitable yard space is neither cheap nor readily available, with adequate security, the costs saved mean more money in the pot for better wages/bonuses. The vans aren't sign written, not that it makes any difference, it's not like the streets aren't "clogged up" with company cars. Thanks for your input.

[NotBenny]

shovelheadrob said:

I've just had a conversation with my son & he's going to see if he can get the contact details for the hire company or the driver of the other vehicle so that he can speak to them directly. Depending on the amount of damage to their vehicle will decide whether to involve the insurers. He's not going to pretend that there was a job the driver could have been going to as that's just lying & opens up a whole world of pain, so the driver's on his own regarding insurance cover etc.
He's going to call the insurance company in the morning & put them in the picture & seek their advice on the matter.

Why is your son working so hard not to drop this guy in it? He used the van when he's not allowed to, shunted it, and now has to deal with the consequences.


Or... is there more to it? is the official rule "no personal use" but in reality all the drivers do this, and your son knows about it? I wouldn't be willing to bend the truth/withhold information from insurers in this way, since there is a potential conviction for driving without insurance, I wouldn't want to be making statements or be seen to be PCJ. So, not wanting to jump to conclusions, be honest, did your son know that the vans were being used in this way, hence uninsured?

[TwistingMyMelon]

Id insure them for personal, but ban personal use , maybe offer it to senior staff as a perk if they pay the tax

Otherwise sounds like gross misconduct on the guy that crashed even if he doesn't quit

Wont the vans insurer still cover the hire car damage by as of a 3rd part cover? In that the car wasnt insured for personal use, but they will cover any damage to another party 3rd party but not the van

I would just ring the insurer hard as it is, no avoiding this, might not be too bad, im sure they get this day in day out.

[FWIW]

MDMA . said:

The trackers will list all movements at all times. You can set them to report between certain hours too. So, before/after 7am - 7pm. Normal 9-5 jobs would have finished commuting by then. Finding out who uses a vehicle for personal use is easy.

From what the OP said they are often on call out so he would need to cross check against timesheets. There’s no automatic way of doing that. I’m not buying it.

[shovelheadrob]

NotBenny said:

Why is your son working so hard not to drop this guy in it? He used the van when he's not allowed to, shunted it, and now has to deal with the consequences.


Or... is there more to it? is the official rule "no personal use" but in reality all the drivers do this, and your son knows about it? I wouldn't be willing to bend the truth/withhold information from insurers in this way, since there is a potential conviction for driving without insurance, I wouldn't want to be making statements or be seen to be PCJ. So, not wanting to jump to conclusions, be honest, did your son know that the vans were being used in this way, hence uninsured?

He's not trying not to drop the guy in it, he's just trying to find out the best way to handle the situation, as I said in an earlier post, the other guys don't take the pee & neither has this guy before.
Insuring the vans for private use is not an option with the current insurer AFAIAA.

[shovelheadrob]

FWIW said:

MDMA . said:

The trackers will list all movements at all times. You can set them to report between certain hours too. So, before/after 7am - 7pm. Normal 9-5 jobs would have finished commuting by then. Finding out who uses a vehicle for personal use is easy.

From what the OP said they are often on call out so he would need to cross check against timesheets. There’s no automatic way of doing that. I’m not buying it.

All jobs are allocated via an app, I'm an old fart so don't know all the ins &outs of it, but I'm pretty sure that this combined with the tracker logs would show unauthorised use. The "no private use" is part of their contracts.

[XDA]

shovelheadrob said:

it's not like the streets aren't "clogged up" with company cars. Thanks for your input.

Company cars would move outside of work hours as they're used for personal use and a lot of people with company cars use them as their main vehicle so would probably park them on their drive.

[CoolHands]

If the driver has any sense he will say he was going to buy some materials from screwfix. What you going to do then?

[FWIW]

shovelheadrob said:

All jobs are allocated via an app, I'm an old fart so don't know all the ins &outs of it, but I'm pretty sure that this combined with the tracker logs would show unauthorised use. The "no private use" is part of their contracts.

Ah, I see, but surely that would still require manual checking of log vs jobs?

[Jimi.K.]

surveyor said:

gazza285 said:

shovelheadrob said:

surveyor said:

Would it cost much more to add private use? If it does not I would seriously consider doing this, even if he does not tell the staff that they are insured...

I don't know if it's even an option, worth looking into although a bit horse, bolt, door lol!

Might not cost much more for the insurance, but the van drivers all get taxed on the personal use rate, which is £3350 off your personal allowance, as it is seen as a benefit in kind. That might make them grumpy.

Not if they are still not allowed to use it for private use. Insurance is not the decider. With trackers etc. it would not be an issue.

I was forced into taking a company car (a basic ford mondeo) in a previous job, and had no option other than to pay the additional tax as a benefit in kind even though I had another car for personal use. I was told by the company there was no option to get out of paying the BIK as merely having access to the car out of work hours was a benefit and they couldnt guarantee to HMRC that I wasn't using it for personal use. Frustrating at the time, but would have prevented issues like the OPs son is finding.

[BrabusMog]

In a previous life I was running a fleet of vans which we asked the drivers to take home at night. They weren't supposed to use for personal but if they asked in advance, we would allow it. One of the guys left to join a rival but had to leave his van at their depot overnight. It didn't take long for him to ring me up and ask for his job back

[NotBenny]

shovelheadrob said:

He's not trying not to drop the guy in it, he's just trying to find out the best way to handle the situation, as I said in an earlier post, the other guys don't take the pee & neither has this guy before.
Insuring the vans for private use is not an option with the current insurer AFAIAA.

I don't understand the issue with just going ahead as per normal then? none of this "he's going to call the other insurance company", just report it to his own insurer, and the ball will roll from there. They'll ask for a description of how the incident occurred, where he was travelling from/to, they'll establish it wasn't for business/commuting and that he wasn't insured, and it'll all get sorted.

this isn't the first time someone has had an accident whilst under-insured, it won't be the last, and the insurance company will deal with it. Leave them to it.