Attacked by security guard - police blaming me!
Discussion
Alfa numeric said:
I read it that the OP went in on his own and paid. His OH was waiting outside, was given the shopping bag by the OP when he came out, and she found the receipt in it.
But I may be wrong.
The actual carry on. But I may be wrong.
We are moving into a new apartment in a few weeks. She had seen a bin on offer when she was doing some locuming for the supermarket. At the time she text me about it. I can't get excited about stuff like that so said lets leave it for now.
We were in the shop and the same bin was there - we assumed it was at the same price (no label). But when we went through the check out it was £30 rather than £15. So I asked for them to remove it and she went and put it back in it's rightful place. I then paid and was walking out and met her by the doors.
I passed some of the stuff to her (so I could get my keys etc). And the receipt was inside a none stick pan type thing we had brought for the new apartment. I didn't remember I'd even got one. I nearly always say no to a receipt no matter what I'm doing - getting fuel or anything. It's just a thing I do.
Unexpected Item In The Bagging Area said:
And you’d forgotten all about it in that time, and failed to remember even during the scuffle and arguement?
Have you ever looked for your wallet and realised it's in your pocket? Or couldn't find your glasses and realied you have them on your head? I didn't even think about it. It's never been a problem in the previous 30 years on this planet. It's just not something I'd register.
I don't think it matters either way. If the supermarket thought it was important they'd have signs saying to keep your receipt. They'd also not let you have the option to not print one. The receipt isn't that significant really. What is significant is if the bloke was legally entitled to make a citizens arrest because I didn't show him one. I don't think he did. Therefore he unlawfully detained me and my partner, and assaulted me.
This is going to be cleared up. But it won't be on here. I came for advice and got some good help. We shall see how it turns out with the Police and with any civil action I chose to take or not. I've said i'll post the footage and I will.
Either I'll be charged with Assault and be in the wrong. Or the Police will realise that I've not done anything wrong. Will have to accept that. And I'll complain to head office further again. But this time with the footage. At that point their reaction will determine what happens.
I originally only emailed them because I wanted to make them aware of what happened. And so that no one else had to be subjected to this. I'd still be happy with an apology and a promise that no one else will go through what I did.
JM said:
Do you not think the bit where you and your other half are seen meeting up and swapping stuff in or around a bag, may seem a bit suspicious to the security guy?
It doesn't matter - and there was no bag. Since you have to pay for them and I only had a small amount of shopping I didn't have one. The law is pretty clear in relation to when you can make a citizens arrest. And an offence had to have happened. You can't suspect an offence might happen. It had to have occurred. As I have a receipt for all the shopping which will be seen on cctv he has acted unlawfully. There was no offence so he had not legal authority to lay a finger on me. Nor did he have legal authority to stop me leaving.
The local copper who works with the secutity guard might not like that. But it is the law. They can't arrest people who might commit an offence. The Police can. Which is why they have special training and powers.
He messed up. He knows this. Which is why no report of theft has been made. His actions were unlawful. Both he, I and I suspect the copper knows this. Which is why she is trying to get it swept under the carpet. Although I could be wrong I suppose.
If the Police want to get arsey and the CPS decide to play along it's up to them to justify his arrest. It's up them to justify his use of force. And it's up to them to prove I was not lawfully defending myself. I think there is more chance of pigs flying than them actually being silly enough to try and do that.
Edit - he never even told me he was arresting me. He just got violent. I actually feel really confident about this after doing lots of reading today and speaking to a couple of solicitors. Time will tell if that confidence is misplaced.
Edited by milkround on Monday 15th April 17:46
768 said:
Maybe the OP and the guard were both being a bit of a dick.
But one of them was acting in a supposedly professional capacity.
No sign of CCTV footage?
Dude. The UK's biggest supermarket does not respond to SAR requests overnight. When I have it I'll post it. I have pretty much zero interest in suing anyone if I'm honest - so I'll post it up. But one of them was acting in a supposedly professional capacity.
No sign of CCTV footage?
kestral said:
I have been reading that stuff.The Police and the SIA have SCONE for a reason.
The reasonableness relates to if the person is guilty or not. So lets say your car is smashed up you hear the noise and see someone running away. An offence has been commited and you reasonably believe it's him. You can do an anyperson arrest and you are probably going to be fine. Even if he wasn't the person who smashed your car up.
But when no car has been smashed up. And you make an any person arrest because someone is running you are in hot water. As no offence has been committed.
Effectively you can't arrest someone for what might happen or what might have happened. It needs to have happened. And if it didn't happen you can't make a citizens arrest.
I'm sure there are some lawyers/police officers on here who can confirm if I'm talking total rubbish. I'm 100% sure he cannot justify trying to stop me leaving.
Car-Matt said:
bad company said:
kestral said:
But the security guy should have told the op if he was arresting him.If the guard told the police that he'd arrested me using his any person powers, and that I'd assaulted him to evade lawful custody. I'd be in a Police station sharpish. The idea that 6 days later I'd be exchanging phone calls and emails with the PC is laughable. As is the idea that I'd have an interview arranged for 9 days time!
Butter-face will no doubt have something to say about that. I'm just glad he is amusing himself.
The reality is that there was no arrest. The Police are not saying he arrested me. They need to explain why he tried to stop me leaving. Well actually the CPS do if they want to run with it. They need to explain the grounds for this action. It's up to them to justify the action. I reckon the chances of this security guard wanting to come to court as a witness are about a million to one.
Either way - I should have calmed it down. And I regret it got to this. The reality is that I can't change it so I have to move forward. Presently that means I need to assume a criminal prosecution is coming. I'm confident it will be fine.
Butter Face said:
If a security guard has reasonable suspicion of you shoplifting they can detain you, they can’t search your person but they can detain you with reasonable force and make a citizens arrest.
Refusing to show a receipt, walking out and having off goods to a 3rd party = reasonable suspicion to me.
But what you know could be fit on the back of a postage stamp. Refusing to show a receipt, walking out and having off goods to a 3rd party = reasonable suspicion to me.
If you are going to claim to be the expert I'd suggest you look up a bit of the case law.
The Met are good enough to put their student notes online. Page 24 onwards goes over citizen/any person arrests. Not really that relevant here but interesting for some maybe: http://www.met.police.uk/msctraining/documents/lon...
Cyberprog said:
And even if that footage does show the OP assaulting the guard, questions need to be asked as to why things got that far - the guard stopped him by the tills and then this escalated to a full on barney in the car park? The security guard cannot be blameless here, it's just not possible!
The guard will likely have been acting way outside of his companies procedures in handling this as well, not to mention the supermarket's own policies.
In fairness - and me playing devil's advocate. The guard will likely have been acting way outside of his companies procedures in handling this as well, not to mention the supermarket's own policies.
IF he's just broken some company policies I see that as having nothing to do with the Police or the Courts. And if he was attacked and his only crime was breaking company policy then it doesn't matter either. What really matters if what the law says.
The CCTV will clear it up. It will show who laid hands on who first. And it will show who was retreating and who was the attacker. It will show who was trying to get away from the aggression and who was charging towards it.
If they want to say he was reasonable to do this because he thought I was a thief. I'll expect them to tell me what I stole and why that suspicion was reasonable. Remember the SCONE thing. Well he either was following me throughout or he was watching me on CCTV. So there would be CCTV footage (or the CCTV will show he was not standing by the door throughout). I am super confident in this because I didn't nick anything.
Tbh I just want to get on with my life. But that doesn't mean I want to admit to something I truly believe I have not done. Got a new bike(well scooter actually) coming today. And have a window regulator coming for my car so all the windows do up and down with the roof - but need to fit it! Just looking forward to something positive and fun rather than this. I might even post some normal stuff about working on my car or enjoying a new bike.
LeoSayer said:
OP if this happened again (security guard asks you to come with him) would you behave differently?
Yeah. I'd have engaged a bit more. And I'd be asking why he wanted me to come with him. I'd also be asking what his problem was. The most pathetic thing is... I still don't really know why he stopped me. He never said. He just asked for a receipt. The copper on the phone just said it's common to steal stuff from the self-service. I asked her if she was accusing me of robbing and she said she was not. We were both idiots really. He didn't want to let it go and I ended up digging my heals in. I don't think it's right that the police are automatically taking one side - but neither of us came out of it looking well.
After asking why I'd sort out the specifics. If it was he said he saw me put something in my pocket I'd turn out the pocket. If it was because he didn't think there was something on the receipt I'd ask what thing it was.
I'd still not randomly walk around with someone. Nor would I be going into any back rooms if I had done nothing wrong. I'd also be on the phone to police before things got physical. But that is beside the point. I think there are some big lessons here - most importantly that if you are challenged and you have done nothing wrong you should be straight on the phone to 999 if they are getting physical. Even being in the right doesn't protect you from being attacked and the law seems to have no consideration for innocent people going about their business.
Centurion07 said:
They may not have, but I'm pretty sure most people, including the OP, wouldn't know one way or the other. Even if they don't, if the security guard THINKS you're trying to walk out with something then he's well within his rights to challenge that person and then when they respond in the way the OP did, it ends up escalating.
As a contractor for that company (posh way of saying self employed driver). I have access to more documentation than you'd think. But I agree that it doesn't really matter as company policy does not outweigh law. And I'm going to assume his guidance is grossly different to mine - doing different roles. Hypothetically. He thinks that I'm stealing so he gets physical. I havn't been stealing and think he is attacking so I get physical. Both people have reasonable belief in their actions so neither are found guilty. Which means it's a total waste of police time. I'm really not that proud of this. I still believe he didn't think I'd be stealing. And I do think he was well over the top. But I'm suspect no1 for a reason I suppose - and the female copper said I'd definately be going to court. I can't see her changing her mind on that.
I better enjoy the new bike whilst I still have my freedom. Joking aside I wish this all could go away and I could get on with my life. In the cold light of day I'm pretty mortified. Now I'm totally calmed down about it and my back has stopped hurting - I can't belive I got into this position.
Cyberprog said:
They are within their rights to ask you, but if you don't want to engage with them unless they pass SCONE then they won't have any further legal powers.
Any escalation at that point is squarely on the guard not the shopper, and puts them on a sticky wicket.
That may be. But it would be for a court to decide.Any escalation at that point is squarely on the guard not the shopper, and puts them on a sticky wicket.
In a few weeks me and my partner move into a new apartment. She is applying for post grad medicine. I'm looking for a professional graduate job. We both want to get on with our lives. I don't want this all hanging over me.
I've decided if I'm offered an out I'll take it. I'm not going to lie and say I attacked anyone. But I'm not going to be difficult for the sake of it. If they offer me a way of just enjoying my life I'll take it. What's more - I can't really afford the financial expense of paying for decent solicitors. The legal aid ones are less than impressive. And winning could cost me an awful lot.
Kuji said:
I don't think that makes it clear at all. But then, you may have some personal motivation for thinking that way.
What I think is clear is that the OP is the one who had ample opportunity to diffuse the situation, but repeatedly chose not to do so.
When he finally comes before the judge, he will likely have to account for why he was acting exactly in the same manner that a shoplifter does, when questioned.
This may be totally out of date but might provide some interesting reading for you. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/m...What I think is clear is that the OP is the one who had ample opportunity to diffuse the situation, but repeatedly chose not to do so.
When he finally comes before the judge, he will likely have to account for why he was acting exactly in the same manner that a shoplifter does, when questioned.
Note here that the bloke there is a barrister and he says you don't need to provide a receipt. Note also that after the receipt was seen that my partner was released and no allegation of theft has been made.
I'm not sure how a shoplifter acts. But I can assure you that competent security staff do not accost paying customers for no reason. Time will tell if he can provide a good reason.
As I've said I want this resolving. But let's not pretend there is all right or wrong on any side here.
And here is another example of the professional skills of security at supermarkets https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/n...
Note I know that most are probably great. And they face abuse and problems for not a lot of money. But it does not give then the right to go marching around behaving like that. He was accused of being violent as well.
Its easy for the rich and the powerful to sue and pit the story in national papers. B
Guys like me have to hope the police will sort things.. we shall see how that works out.
Note I know that most are probably great. And they face abuse and problems for not a lot of money. But it does not give then the right to go marching around behaving like that. He was accused of being violent as well.
Its easy for the rich and the powerful to sue and pit the story in national papers. B
Guys like me have to hope the police will sort things.. we shall see how that works out.
BertBert said:
As you're quite happy with the fact that there is fault on both sides, I'm interested in what resolution you want to see?
If you want some restorative position from the security guard/supermarket side, what is that and what restoration are you prepared to give?
Bert
Well I'm not overly convinced that I have any say in this. The police officer said on the phone that either I sign an apology letter or I'll be going to court for sure. Her words not mine. But I'll play along anyway.If you want some restorative position from the security guard/supermarket side, what is that and what restoration are you prepared to give?
Bert
In an ideal world we would both be told to stop acting like fools - I'd be told to always get a receipt and have it handy, and hed be told to not put his hands on anyone unless he was 100% sure they'd done something wrong. Perhaps we both give a hundred quid to charity. But I cant see that happening at all.
Now... whilst I accept I am complicit in all of this. I'm not sure I am willing to take the blame. By the officers own words the 'punch' looked like an instinctive reaction after I'd gotten up from being knocked down. This was after I'd been trying to retreat. How can I say I'm sorry and I'd never do it again when I never set out to do it in the first place?
I'm not really interested in an apology from him either. Or any form of compo. I'd rather just forget about it.
vonhosen said:
But the principles in dealing with it are the same, if you care about minimising impact on yourself & achieving the best outcome.
Like I said, there's a time for standing and fighting & this
isn't it. There are better ways to deal with this type of thing & I suggest any reasonable person can see that.
I actually agree with your way of approaching things. But you have to look at reasonable outcomes. I never expected in a million years that I'd be accosted like that outside the shop. Like I said, there's a time for standing and fighting & this
isn't it. There are better ways to deal with this type of thing & I suggest any reasonable person can see that.There are three parties at wrong here. Me, sec gaurd, shop. I'll say shop as they have created a device which offers you the option to not have something, and then employed people who demand that. I know in a concert I have to keep my ticket or armband because I'm told. But the shop is actively offering you the choice.
Easy solution. Everyone gets a receipt. Customers are told clearly to keep it. Everyone's receipt is checked on way out. No one feels victimised and no one is shocked. Plenty of cash and carries operate this system. Either that or don't expect people to be able to produce them! Especially when you are going to make the jump they are thieving if they cant/wont.
Mandat said:
I would say that having or not having a receipt is not really relevant to the situation that you have found yourself in.
Even without a receipt, there are simple ways in which proof of purchase can be confirmed by the store staff while you wait.
The kerfuffle arose because of your negative reaction when challenged by the guard, and not because the shop gave you an option to not print a receipt.
Perhaps. Even without a receipt, there are simple ways in which proof of purchase can be confirmed by the store staff while you wait.
The kerfuffle arose because of your negative reaction when challenged by the guard, and not because the shop gave you an option to not print a receipt.
I'm awfully sorry would you mind waiting two mins whilst my colleagues just check this.
Vs
Come with me.
One would have been fine and I'd have been sweet. The other seemed random and I didn't k know where I was meant to go or for what.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But here I am.
longblackcoat said:
Swallow your pride.
Write the letter - you don't have to mean it, you just have to say it - and make sure it's delivered.
Move on. Life's just way too short.
Don't think that option is still on the table. And its not one I'd taken until I've seen the CCTV footage either way. Write the letter - you don't have to mean it, you just have to say it - and make sure it's delivered.
Move on. Life's just way too short.
Once me and a solicitor have seen it then I'll think about my next steps. If I'm in the wrong from a legal perspective I'll accept the punishment. If not I'll fight it.
Some would argue you shouldn't need to see evidence to decide if you are guilty. I'd agree. But I honestly and sincerely do not think I assaulted anyone. But I'm being told differently. Ill have to see next Thursday unless the sar footage comes back sooner.
The more I think about it the less reason the police have to take sides. But even my partner is saying he grabbed me and was going mad. And she is not exactly the type to take my side when I'm in the wrong.
Red 4 said:
You need to explain what you mean by this or I'm calling bullst on this thread.
It's called restorative justice or something. I agree to never go to the shop and write a letter saying I'm sorry. And the police done interview or prosecute me. t on this thread.Youd need to ask someone who knows more about stuff like this if I'm just making it up.
Apparently you don't get a criminal record but it can be used against you. And you have to fully admit you were in the wrong etc.
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