Attacked by security guard - police blaming me!

[the tribester]

carinaman said:

The OP's job involves delivering to retail sites so he has some understanding of the CCTV used around self service tills and entrances of supermarkets.

My experience of deliveries at large supermarkets is that they use a 'goods in' entrance, usually away from the entrance and self service tills, so I doubt the OP had any understanding of the system.
I'm sure he does now though.

[carinaman]

Fair point tribester.

[The Mad Monk]

60 pages on my device. perhaps it's 120 pages on yours.

This thread just keeps giving, doesn't it?

[hutchst]

Chalkius said:

For reasonable suspicion to be valid, he needs to be able to articulate that suspicion, and have it be so essentially a reasonable person, or persons would feel it's valid. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being total and complete knowledge, reasonable suspicion is about a 2-3. While only you and the SG know exactly what has gone on, if he thinks you may have been stealing, and you then refuse to show a receipt, that's going to increase suspicion. If I, as a cop, thought someone had stolen something, and they neither wanted to, or couldn't show me proof of purchase, that's going to increase suspicion in my book. It's certainly in the realms of reasonable suspicion.

In terms of looking a bit dodgy and not obey commands not meeting that low bar, it would depend. If I have suspicion, genuinely held (even if mistaken), that they're involved, and they're trying to leave, they're getting nicked. If I see someone I know is a dodgy person but there's no offences I'm aware of and they decline to come talk to me, then there's little I can do.

(I'm not saying you were wrong in this situation, that's for a court to determine, just explaining the suspicion element. His claim of reasonable suspicion, if the footage shows it your way, may be shown to be plainly false. But obviously nobody else here can really comment)

It does seem as if a lot of weight is being given to CCTV footage, which might show that the security guard was wrong. But I don't see how that matters. As you say the bar is very low. It doesn't matter if he was wrong. He did not require prima facie evidence of an offence. All that matters is what he thought at the time of the (attempted) arrest or detention.

It's been said before, but probably worth repeating, that the facts supporting reasonable suspicion are not in dispute.

Did the security guard ask to see a receipt for goods in milkround's possession? Yes
Did milkround deny having a receipt? Yes
Did milkround actually have a receipt, despite saying he didn't? Yes
Did the security guard ask milkround to accompany him to the office? Yes
Did milkround refuse to accompany the security guard to the office, and attempt to leave the scene instead? Yes

Even if milkround proves with CCTV that he came down Aisle B, but the security guard thought he came down Aisle F, it will make no difference. The security guard is entitled to be wrong. All that matters is what was in his mind at the time of the attempted detention.

None of this is new, it has been settled by the Lords years ago.

[milkround]

Thesprucegoose said:

milkround said:

.. not fantasy tales of me ignoring him etc.
.. my ignoring him (proveably false).

You posted this at the start which kinda implies you did ignore him though...

milkround said:

so am told very firmly come with me. At this point, I have no inclination to come with anyone so walk out. I'd paid for my shopping. I'd done nothing wrong. If he'd asked nicely it might have been different - but I take my civil liberties very seriously.

In my book there is a difference between not doing as requested and ignoring.

I'm about to go to out of a secure warehouse. I'm currently being loaded. I can ask for a copy of the security notice (it will be emailed anyway - but I should have it really) if they say no I cant ring my office and say I've asked and I was blanked. I'd call and say I asked and they explained they didn't want to give me one. If I was asked to write a report afterwards I certainly wouldn't say 'they ignorws me and walked straight past without saying anything' as it would be untrue and I'd look a fool when the company said otherwise.

[Red Devil]

hutchst said:

It's been said before, but probably worth repeating, that the facts supporting reasonable suspicion are not in dispute.

Did the security guard ask to see a receipt for goods in milkround's possession? Yes
Did milkround deny having a receipt? Yes
Did milkround actually have a receipt, despite saying he didn't? Yes
Did the security guard ask milkround to accompany him to the office? Yes
Did milkround refuse to accompany the security guard to the office, and attempt to leave the scene instead? Yes

Even if milkround proves with CCTV that he came down Aisle B, but the security guard thought he came down Aisle F, it will make no difference. The security guard is entitled to be wrong. All that matters is what was in his mind at the time of the attempted detention.

None of this is new, it has been settled by the Lords years ago.

Point 2. Given that the self-service checkouts provide the customer with the option not to have one, the lack thereof cannot per se give rise to a reasonable suspicion.
Point 3. I asked the question a long time ago, how did the OP manage to forget, in such a short space of time, that he had in fact pressed 'yes' on the touch screen and taken the receipt?

I could be wrong (tbh I cba to go back through 100+ pages) but I don't think we have yet been given a satisfactory answer to that.

I'm really not sure why this aspect is still being so assiduously raked over. The OP is facing a charge of assault, not theft. Therefore I'm unclear how any of the above is relevant.
I'm fairly sure his legal advisor/s won't be wasting time on extraneous stuff. If I have understood correctly, the OP's argument will be self-defence.

[hutchst]

It may be relevant because milkround himself (26th July) has confirmed that he is still running with the argument that the security guard had no lawful grounds to try and arrest (detain) him, and is doggedly pursuing CCTV evidence that he believes will exonerate him.

[milkround]

hutchst said:

It may be relevant because milkround himself (26th July) has confirmed that he is still running with the argument that the security guard had no lawful grounds to try and arrest (detain) him, and is doggedly pursuing CCTV evidence that he believes will exonerate him.

Sort of. But I dont know the legal side of it.

My argument is he had no right to put his hands on me. He didn't say why he did so. And he acted in such a way because he lost his temper. All of which I truly believe.

I'm also arguing that he assaulted me repeatedly and the only level of force I used is a shove which I did after trying to back away from him. And I only did that as I'd been knocked down and believed a further more serious assault was imminent which I could not get away from.

I want the cctv as it will show conclusively if I did things which I dispute. Whilst people can be mistaken, and mistakes are an unfortunate part of life - I fail to see how you can mistake which way someone walks from when your purpose is to stand there and watch for it. I also think it brings into question the validity of other statements made.

Namely the same CCTV would show if the witness did indeed enter and leave the store as he states. The cctv I have seems to show that isn't possible. If the witness was not outside he could not see what he claims and that really is important.

I might be totally wrong. And the courts might decide I'm totally guilty. I've rolled the dice and will have to see.

[milkround]

Red Devil said:

Point 2. Given that the self-service checkouts provide the customer with the option not to have one, the lack thereof cannot per se give rise to a reasonable suspicion.
Point 3. I asked the question a long time ago, how did the OP manage to forget, in such a short space of time, that he had in fact pressed 'yes' on the touch screen and taken the receipt?

I could be wrong (tbh I cba to go back through 100+ pages) but I don't think we have yet been given a satisfactory answer to that.

I'm really not sure why this aspect is still being so assiduously raked over. The OP is facing a charge of assault, not theft. Therefore I'm unclear how any of the above is relevant.
I'm fairly sure his legal advisor/s won't be wasting time on extraneous stuff. If I have understood correctly, the OP's argument will be self-defence.

Point 3 I cant answer as I dont know.

All I can do is tell the truth. I didn't think I took one. I never did. All I liken it to is looking for your car keys and after ages finding them in your pocket. Or searching for your glasses and finding them on your head.

[milkround]

the tribester said:

My experience of deliveries at large supermarkets is that they use a 'goods in' entrance, usually away from the entrance and self service tills, so I doubt the OP had any understanding of the system.
I'm sure he does now though.

I'm not about to argue. But how great is your experience?

You are correct at large stores you will reverse onto a bay. And that will be a goods in entrance. At smaller stores you will pull up outside and the staff will take it from the tailift.

But do you not think we go through the back of the stores when we are going to the toilet or canteen? Or when we are on a break and want to walk into the actual store to buy a sandwich?

At tesco your paid one pound (I think) for a colleague card. That you loaded money on to but stuff from the canteens as they are cashless. You got free tea and coffee if you used this card in any staff area from the machines. As sainsburys they have closed down most of the in store staff canteens but again youd do to staff rooms just to get a cup of tea or to fill up your water.

So yes you do go past the security rooms where they hold suspects. You also go past the CCTV room (usually blacked out screen but left open a lot).

What's more I've never met a supermarket delivery driver who wasnt hot on where the cameras are. Back door staff usually tell you. Supermarkets have so many silly rules that you need to know just to get the job done. An example of which is sainsburys insisting to put safety straps around cages when in a yard... try tipping a tri axle if you follow that rule when the bay is down. Youd be there hours and would run out of hours.

[carinaman]

milkround said:

But do you not think we go through the back of the stores when we are going to the toilet or canteen? Or when we are on a break and want to walk into the actual store to buy a sandwich?

I suspect some large companies that employ many HGV drivers advise them to walk around the site during part of their break to help reduce risks of Deep Vein Thrombosis from being sat in a cab for hours at a time.

[Greendubber]

Tesco colleague cards are ace, full English for about £1.80.

[Red 4]

Greendubber said:

Tesco colleague cards are ace, full English for about £1.80.

1. What is this colleague card of which you speak ?

2. How did you get one ? Have you been moonlighting ?

3. What is included in the "full English" ?

[Greendubber]

Red 4 said:

Greendubber said:

Tesco colleague cards are ace, full English for about £1.80.

1. What is this colleague card of which you speak ?

2. How did you get one ? Have you been moonlighting ?

3. What is included in the "full English" ?

1. Its a pre paid card for buying food in the staff cafe. I put a tenner on mine and it never ran out.

2. When I was brand new and out of the box we had a massive Tesco on patch. We used to deal with the shoplifters so we're always in there getting CCTV etc. Our team had a good relationship with the manager so we used to pop into the regular punters cafe for refs or a quick coffee whilst taking statements, we also used to do neighbourhood meetings there with residents. The manager offered us the cards and said we were welcome to use the staff cafe if we wanted to.

3. You could have whatever you wanted,I think it was about 15p per item (this is a while ago) so if you wanted 2 slices of toast and 25 slices of bacon then so be it. The old dear on the till was the mum of a Sgt at our station so she loved us going in. I think she had a good relationship with the bakery as she always used to send us off with cakes to take back to the nick to dish out.

A few Morrisons allow the police use of their staff cafe these days too, you can get a decent breakfast and a brew for about £2.50 or at lunch time a proper meal such as lasagna and chips for about £3.00.

Good times (obviously declared and authorised)

[Vaud]

Nice to see big companies doing a sensible thing!

(and it should be allowed, though I am sort of surprised that it is)

[milkround]

Greendubber said:

1. Its a pre paid card for buying food in the staff cafe. I put a tenner on mine and it never ran out.

2. When I was brand new and out of the box we had a massive Tesco on patch. We used to deal with the shoplifters so we're always in there getting CCTV etc. Our team had a good relationship with the manager so we used to pop into the regular punters cafe for refs or a quick coffee whilst taking statements, we also used to do neighbourhood meetings there with residents. The manager offered us the cards and said we were welcome to use the staff cafe if we wanted to.

3. You could have whatever you wanted,I think it was about 15p per item (this is a while ago) so if you wanted 2 slices of toast and 25 slices of bacon then so be it. The old dear on the till was the mum of a Sgt at our station so she loved us going in. I think she had a good relationship with the bakery as she always used to send us off with cakes to take back to the nick to dish out.

A few Morrisons allow the police use of their staff cafe these days too, you can get a decent breakfast and a brew for about £2.50 or at lunch time a proper meal such as lasagna and chips for about £3.00.

Good times (obviously declared and authorised)

If you ever get the chance to go to a big dc then it's even better. Real cooks cooking all sorts of meals all at cheap cheap prices.

Sainsburys dcs were even better. Food was honestly above pub grade quality. At xmas it was free and management would serve us. Even got a cracker. And I was just longish term agency.

This is 1000% not meant as a dig. But your comments about management and staff relations are half my idea why the police were not so keen to really look at the sg. I might be totally wrong. But my feelings were they wanted to make it go away both because it was annoying for them, and also because it risked rocking the boat. Other things enforced this view- like the pc saying they dont go out for shoplifting so let their security gaurd colleagues deal with that.

Ps is anyone wants a free Tesco staff card with about 6 quid on it PM me your address and I'll bang it in the post. It's only useful to those who have access to the staff canteens.

[Red 4]

Cheers for the in-depth reply.

Good to see the troops are getting looked after.

[milkround]

carinaman said:

I suspect some large companies that employ many HGV drivers advise them to walk around the site during part of their break to help reduce risks of Deep Vein Thrombosis from being sat in a cab for hours at a time.

I suspect that if you tried walking around anything other than the drivers rooms at many big companies youd be banned and escorted from site.

I'm thinking about supermarkets and the amazons specifically. They take your keys. Lock your wheels. And confine you to a dingy room (not amazing that's a pretty nice room actually). You might be stuck in that room for very many hours with no chance of sleep or rest. And they wonder why people are not lining up to do the job.

Sainsburys was different. We had a gym onsite. We could use it on our breaks or even when waiting as a spare driver as long as you kept your phone on. But that was just for people working for them. Visiting drivers delivering got the usual inhumane treatment.

[Greendubber]

milkround said:

Greendubber said:

1. Its a pre paid card for buying food in the staff cafe. I put a tenner on mine and it never ran out.

2. When I was brand new and out of the box we had a massive Tesco on patch. We used to deal with the shoplifters so we're always in there getting CCTV etc. Our team had a good relationship with the manager so we used to pop into the regular punters cafe for refs or a quick coffee whilst taking statements, we also used to do neighbourhood meetings there with residents. The manager offered us the cards and said we were welcome to use the staff cafe if we wanted to.

3. You could have whatever you wanted,I think it was about 15p per item (this is a while ago) so if you wanted 2 slices of toast and 25 slices of bacon then so be it. The old dear on the till was the mum of a Sgt at our station so she loved us going in. I think she had a good relationship with the bakery as she always used to send us off with cakes to take back to the nick to dish out.

A few Morrisons allow the police use of their staff cafe these days too, you can get a decent breakfast and a brew for about £2.50 or at lunch time a proper meal such as lasagna and chips for about £3.00.

Good times (obviously declared and authorised)

If you ever get the chance to go to a big dc then it's even better. Real cooks cooking all sorts of meals all at cheap cheap prices.

Sainsburys dcs were even better. Food was honestly above pub grade quality. At xmas it was free and management would serve us. Even got a cracker. And I was just longish term agency.

This is 1000% not meant as a dig. But your comments about management and staff relations are half my idea why the police were not so keen to really look at the sg. I might be totally wrong. But my feelings were they wanted to make it go away both because it was annoying for them, and also because it risked rocking the boat. Other things enforced this view- like the pc saying they dont go out for shoplifting so let their security gaurd colleagues deal with that.

Ps is anyone wants a free Tesco staff card with about 6 quid on it PM me your address and I'll bang it in the post. It's only useful to those who have access to the staff canteens.

I've been to some brilliant 'staff cafes' in some big companies fairly recently when we've been doing work there and the food is brilliant. Went to a large car manufacturers place last autumn and the food was restaurant grade, all for about 4 quid.

I don't see it as a dig, in my experience security guards in big supermarkets are total Walt's and if I'm being honest, a bit of a pain in the arse. I certainly wouldn't expect anything to be brushed under the carpet for the sake of some agency guard. I'd imagine most places would just want shot of someone who's causing issues and they'd be replaced with someone else.

[Red 4]

milkround said:

This is 1000% not meant as a dig. But your comments about management and staff relations are half my idea why the police were not so keen to really look at the sg. I might be totally wrong. But my feelings were they wanted to make it go away both because it was annoying for them, and also because it risked rocking the boat. Other things enforced this view- like the pc saying they dont go out for shoplifting so let their security gaurd colleagues deal with that.

I thought the notion of a bit of bias towards Tesco would be brought up when Greendubber mentioned subsidised meals for police.

It's a contentious subject (gifts and gruatuities) but I think any cop would be silly to go above and beyond because they may be able to get a cheap meal there.

It is a slippery slope though - A few years ago there were a few police vehicles knocking about which were sponsored/ donated by a local car dealership (part of a national chain).

That was a bad idea. IMO.