Attacked by security guard - police blaming me!

[hutchst]

milkround said:

So I've tried to google this. But either I'm not smart enough to find it or it's hidden as a legal people only thing.

I've found a few links from Barristers websites who were involved all saying it meant different things. Are you willing to give an overview or provide the judgement?

Cheers.

P.S - don't think La Liga was referring to that. Just trying to give me good advice in a general sense with the ability to see both sides of the fence here (due to his previous job) and also keeping things in perspective. Which I fully admit I have lost a bit here.

The neutral citation is Sowande v Crown Prosecution Service [2017] EWHC 1234 (Admin) and you can probably get a copy by applying directly to the court, but I suggest that you don't. You should follow the advice of this chap earlier...

milkround said:

Cheers. That all makes total sense tbh. And I think the key thing is that it's a big deal to me but not to anyone else. I shall get on with my life and see what happens. And that means going out on my new scooter today rather than read up anymore about this stuff.

Hope you get out and enjoy the sun. I'll stop looking up rules/laws as I can't see it being too helpful right now.

and get yourself some proper legal advice, or this might not turn out the way you expect.

[A1VDY]

AS La Liga rightly points out, its a low level 'crime' (if it can even be called that). Security guard dishing out a good drubbing to a 'customer' and using homophobic language to someone who looks gay is nothing new (night club security is a good example), its always gone on, nothing new here. Its really not worth wasting your time or police time over..

[mooseracer]

I lost the will after about 6 pages - did the CCTV get posted?

[bad company]

mooseracer said:

I lost the will after about 6 pages - did the CCTV get posted?

Not yet, the op doesn’t have it.

[Coilspring]

V1nce Fox said:

Why the hell wouldn't you get a receipt?

I always make sure I have one in my hand when walking through any shop exit or past security. It immediately removes their option to escalate anything.

This is surely basic common sense isn't it?

This ^^^^. Lots of others saying similar things.

What if there was a problem with an item purchased? Yes I know all you need is proof of purchase (copy of bank statement if paid by card etc), but it is so much simpler with a receipt that they provide.

Having experienced people trying to steal, most reasonable people are quite happy to spend a few seconds sorting out queries. It is normally the unreasonable (or untrustworthy) type who will not entertain a few seconds of conversation to sort things. It is the same with road rage, this is trolley rage. Was there, or wasn't there a receipt. There wasn't, but then the wife found it?

[768]

Coilspring said:

V1nce Fox said:

Why the hell wouldn't you get a receipt?

I always make sure I have one in my hand when walking through any shop exit or past security. It immediately removes their option to escalate anything.

This is surely basic common sense isn't it?

This ^^^^. Lots of others saying similar things.

I don't really understand why, assuming you haven't nicked anything.

Just because you have a receipt for something doesn't mean you haven't nicked something else. Unless buying a chocolate bar means you have immunity to hide a bottle of whiskey on your person.

[bad company]

I haven’t always taken a receipt. After reading this I think I will in future.

[hutchst]

The issue isn't about having or not having a receipt, it's about giving the security guard reasonable cause to believe that an indictable offence is being committed by telling him you haven't got a receipt when he just watched you taking a receipt from the till 30 seconds earlier.

[SnowStar]

Good call not going to a room with the guard. He may have bummed you.

[ShampooEfficient]

SnowStar said:

Good call not going to a room with the guard. He may have bummed you.

There may have been two dogs tied together inside the room!

[milkround]

hutchst said:

The issue isn't about having or not having a receipt, it's about giving the security guard reasonable cause to believe that an indictable offence is being committed by telling him you haven't got a receipt when he just watched you taking a receipt from the till 30 seconds earlier.

Is there really a need for that? Would you say that to a persons face in real life?

If as you say he did see my get a receipt he'd have known it was in a pan and told me this. If he saw me get a receipt he'd also know I'd paid for my shopping and should have not bothered me.

I'm still not convinced reasonable cause covers members of the public. Police yes. It's explicitly set out. Normal member of the public I think they have to absolutely know an offence has been committed. I'm not going to go around in circles arguing about that. I'm a truck driver and not a lawyer. If I'm wrong in that believe I can live with my ignorance.

Hope everyone is having fun in the sun and enjoying life.

[BrabusMog]

milkround said:

hutchst said:

The issue isn't about having or not having a receipt, it's about giving the security guard reasonable cause to believe that an indictable offence is being committed by telling him you haven't got a receipt when he just watched you taking a receipt from the till 30 seconds earlier.

Is there really a need for that? Would you say that to a persons face in real life?

If as you say he did see my get a receipt he'd have known it was in a pan and told me this. If he saw me get a receipt he'd also know I'd paid for my shopping and should have not bothered me.

I'm still not convinced reasonable cause covers members of the public. Police yes. It's explicitly set out. Normal member of the public I think they have to absolutely know an offence has been committed. I'm not going to go around in circles arguing about that. I'm a truck driver and not a lawyer. If I'm wrong in that believe I can live with my ignorance.

Hope everyone is having fun in the sun and enjoying life.

So you think it's reasonable to just walk off when asked to prove you paid for the goods you're leaving with? What if the alarms go off when you walk out the store, do you stop and wait or just saunter off?

[hutchst]

milkround said:

Is there really a need for that? Would you say that to a persons face in real life?

If as you say he did see my get a receipt he'd have known it was in a pan and told me this. If he saw me get a receipt he'd also know I'd paid for my shopping and should have not bothered me.

I'm still not convinced reasonable cause covers members of the public. Police yes. It's explicitly set out. Normal member of the public I think they have to absolutely know an offence has been committed. I'm not going to go around in circles arguing about that. I'm a truck driver and not a lawyer. If I'm wrong in that believe I can live with my ignorance.

Hope everyone is having fun in the sun and enjoying life.

Of course I would. There is no doubt in my mind, even on your own version of events, that you gave the guard reasonable cause, whether intentional or not. It's about how your actions were reasonably interpreted by the guard, not what you intended. You have been advised by lawyers on here that the right of arrest without a warrant (i.e. by a citizen) is provided under PACE, And in case it hasn't been mentioned before, that right of arrest without a warrant includes the use of reasonable force.

[Barga]

BrabusMog said:

milkround said:

hutchst said:

The issue isn't about having or not having a receipt, it's about giving the security guard reasonable cause to believe that an indictable offence is being committed by telling him you haven't got a receipt when he just watched you taking a receipt from the till 30 seconds earlier.

Is there really a need for that? Would you say that to a persons face in real life?

If as you say he did see my get a receipt he'd have known it was in a pan and told me this. If he saw me get a receipt he'd also know I'd paid for my shopping and should have not bothered me.

I'm still not convinced reasonable cause covers members of the public. Police yes. It's explicitly set out. Normal member of the public I think they have to absolutely know an offence has been committed. I'm not going to go around in circles arguing about that. I'm a truck driver and not a lawyer. If I'm wrong in that believe I can live with my ignorance.

Hope everyone is having fun in the sun and enjoying life.

So you think it's reasonable to just walk off when asked to prove you paid for the goods you're leaving with? What if the alarms go off when you walk out the store, do you stop and wait or just saunter off?

Did the alarm go off?

[BrabusMog]

Barga said:

Did the alarm go off?

No, I was just wondering how he would react if it did.

[Barga]

BrabusMog said:

Barga said:

Did the alarm go off?

No, I was just wondering how he would react if it did.

Most people would wait to be checked if they have nothing to hide but this jobs worth obviously got the OPs back up then assaulted him and implied he was a horses hoof!
I think he was quite within his rights to plant one on the .
The police are trying to get this signed off with the least amount of hassle for them and the Oap should tell them to fk off with the accept a caution bks.

[98elise]

Coilspring said:

V1nce Fox said:

Why the hell wouldn't you get a receipt?

I always make sure I have one in my hand when walking through any shop exit or past security. It immediately removes their option to escalate anything.

This is surely basic common sense isn't it?

This ^^^^. Lots of others saying similar things.

What if there was a problem with an item purchased? Yes I know all you need is proof of purchase (copy of bank statement if paid by card etc), but it is so much simpler with a receipt that they provide.

Having experienced people trying to steal, most reasonable people are quite happy to spend a few seconds sorting out queries. It is normally the unreasonable (or untrustworthy) type who will not entertain a few seconds of conversation to sort things. It is the same with road rage, this is trolley rage. Was there, or wasn't there a receipt. There wasn't, but then the wife found it?

Personally I don't bother for most consumable stuff. I don't need the receipt for anything and by the end of the week I have a handful of waste paper in my pocket.

[Flumpo]

BrabusMog said:

Barga said:

Did the alarm go off?

No, I was just wondering how he would react if it did.

If you are playing ‘what ifs’, then what if he asked for your receipt and to come back. You obliged, but he decided you weren’t walking quickly enough, grabbed you and started hurling racial/sexist/disability abuse that you were sensitive about?

Then what would you do?

Actually, it’s irrelevant so let’s just stick to the only version of events we have.

[milkround]

BrabusMog said:

Barga said:

Did the alarm go off?

No, I was just wondering how he would react if it did.

I dare say I'd walk back to cutomers services and politely explain they'd made a mistake and not taken the alarm off. I wouldn't be too impressed if they took their mistake as an excuse to rifle through my stuff though.

Here are some what-ifs for you as I've humoured you.

1. What if I was running very late for something and literally didn't have any time to stop? Let's say I got a call saying my Son was in hosptial and it didn't look good. Should I still stop when I have done nothing wrong?

2. What if I had a learning difficulty and I responded to fear by running away? This is similar to something that happened my my Mum's best friends son. He had a severe egg alergy. Except they didn't know this when he was a baby. So he got very severe brain damage. They try and give him independence. But when challenged in this way he'd run. He works two jobs - one stacking shelve at a supermarket on weekends. The other as a cleaner in a school. So he has his own money. Should he be beat up after paying for his shoping and terrified? I say it's relavent as a Police car pulled up to ask him a question. He ran to his grandmothers in tears and they came through the door. The officers apologised and said they didn't know why he ran. I'd like to think they were a bit more trained than a security guard so would not hurt him after realising he had problems.

[Dromedary66]

milkround said:

2. What if I had a learning difficulty and I responded to fear by running away?

Wait... you mean to say that you don't?