B road hooning, technically illegal?

[Black_S3]

V8RX7 said:

If I parked an HGV on every tight bend in your patch - you wouldn't have a problem with that because every driver will be able to stop ?

He'll be back quoting the parking bits of the highway code :P

[Graveworm]

Black_S3 said:

No, I think that the highway code differs in many ways from legal the definition of dangerous/careless driving which are the offences someone would actually be charged with if found to be driving like a bellend .

But driving too fast to be able to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear is definitely covered by the definition. The degree of excess would depend on whether it was dangerous or careless. Von would probably know that better than anyone.

[Black_S3]

Graveworm said:

But driving too fast to be able to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear is definitely covered by the definition. The degree of excess would depend on whether it was dangerous or careless. Von would probably know that better than anyone.

If it wasn't ambiguous surely it would be an offence in it's own right? Similar to the others like say for failing to stop at a stop sign?

I think it can be any of: careless, dangerous or just an accident that happened driving within what most would view as acceptable risks... I'm not disputing the last one will land you with a dangerous/careless charge if bad luck strikes.

[Graveworm]

Black_S3 said:

If it wasn't ambiguous surely it would be an offence in it's own right? Similar to the others like say for failing to stop at a stop sign?

I think it can be any of: careless, dangerous or just an accident that happened driving within what most would view as acceptable risks... I'm not disputing the last one will land you with a dangerous/careless charge if bad luck strikes.

I would have thought not being ambiguous is a good reason not to need a specific offence. No specific offence for driving straight into someone or doing three figures at a group of school children. I don't agree that it is an acceptable risk, the courts don't and some pretty billy whiz drivers manage without needing to do it either often at double the NSL and above. .

[Black_S3]

Graveworm said:

I would have thought not being ambiguous is a good reason not to have a specific offence. No specific offence for driving straight into someone or doing three figures at a group of school children. I don't agree that it is an acceptable risk, the courts don't and some pretty billy whiz drivers manage without needing to do it either often at double the NSL and above. .

So many double negatives you've confused me... Also some absolute bullst that people can often drive at 120mph while being able to stop within line of sight on 60mph single carriageways yet implying that doesn't hit dangerous...I'm out.

[Graveworm]

Black_S3 said:

So many double negatives you've confused me... Also some absolute bullst that people can often drive at 120mph while being able to stop within line of sight on 60mph single carriageways yet implying that doesn't hit dangerous...I'm out.

I can't see any double negatives there but if it's confusing it's not effective.
I didn't specify single carriageway but, even so, yes. - plenty where you can see an order of magnitude over 200m.

Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 23 April 22:11

[av185]

BertBert said:

We don't have an ISO standard for 'hooning' (perhaps just a BS one) which makes it very hard to discuss. Certainly in the south east it feels incredibly hard to do any sporty driving even in the most moderate of sports cars that doesn't take you quickly beyond the point of being able to stop in time and within the speed limit. I passengered in a 720S the other day, what a phenomenal car. But at the speeds it was 'fun', the risks felt too high (certainly as a pax).

That's why I like really low powered caterhams with skinny tyres! My Gt3 feels a bit useless really. Although with nice buckets and pointy steering it's quite fun at low speeds and relatively low G-levels. Good for a bit of a squirt here and there. But it's hard to hoon in I reckon.

So overall, I think it's a challenge to do legal B road hooning.
Bert

Most Mclarens typify what is wrong with the majority of contemporary rapid cars.

Fast but uninvolving and require very little skill to drive quickly.

Therefore no fun.

The decline of the 'manuel' gearbox has done much to dilute the skill and amount of driving involvement required.

Thankfully Porsche have recognised this and the 'manuel' gen 2 GT3 is perhaps the sweetspot in a fine run of their contemporary cars, GT4 and the new GT2 RS included.

Shame other quality manufacturers persist in further dilution of the driving experience in the name of branding.

[Crippo]

Does everyone drive down a B road with a view to being able to stop in the distance they can see? Because I don’t see how it’s that realistic. Left rights opening closing corners, humps I can do 30 now 40 now 50 now 30 now 60 now 30. I mean I brake and change gear a lot when driving a fun B road but I’m not explicitly thinking can I stop her, now here, I can see there can I stop there, I’m usually thinking this corner opens closes, open for sighting, balance the car, what the view, how far ahead can I see, can I see traffic ahead, over the hedge, what if it’s a Caterham? It’s constant assessment for all manner of stuff. I’m just not sure being able to stop in a defined distance is it. As I hopefully have described above at defined distance changes constantly more than your speed can and there fore more than your stopping distance. So therefore it must be a blended answer.

[vonhosen]

Crippo said:

Does everyone drive down a B road with a view to being able to stop in the distance they can see? Because I don’t see how it’s that realistic. Left rights opening closing corners, humps I can do 30 now 40 now 50 now 30 now 60 now 30. I mean I brake and change gear a lot when driving a fun B road but I’m not explicitly thinking can I stop her, now here, I can see there can I stop there, I’m usually thinking this corner opens closes, open for sighting, balance the car, what the view, how far ahead can I see, can I see traffic ahead, over the hedge, what if it’s a Caterham? It’s constant assessment for all manner of stuff. I’m just not sure being able to stop in a defined distance is it. As I hopefully have described above at defined distance changes constantly more than your speed can and there fore more than your stopping distance. So therefore it must be a blended answer.

Of course it's a constant assessment of all manner of stuff, but a corner stone of good driving is the afore mentioned stopping rules.

What driving assessment will you not fail for routinely breaking them?

[Black_S3]

Crippo said:

Does everyone drive down a B road with a view to being able to stop in the distance they can see? Because I don’t see how it’s that realistic. Left rights opening closing corners, humps I can do 30 now 40 now 50 now 30 now 60 now 30. I mean I brake and change gear a lot when driving a fun B road but I’m not explicitly thinking can I stop her, now here, I can see there can I stop there, I’m usually thinking this corner opens closes, open for sighting, balance the car, what the view, how far ahead can I see, can I see traffic ahead, over the hedge, what if it’s a Caterham? It’s constant assessment for all manner of stuff. I’m just not sure being able to stop in a defined distance is it. As I hopefully have described above at defined distance changes constantly more than your speed can and there fore more than your stopping distance. So therefore it must be a blended answer.

Perfectly put & 100% agree.

[Black_S3]

vonhosen said:

What driving assessment will you not fail for routinely breaking them?

Isn’t there something in the most basic of tests that fails people for not making proper progress? I get where you’re coming from re driving in built up areas but given the thread title thats not whats being discussed? I can’t honestly think of many nsl 60s that everyone would not be constantly down to 20 on if the code was actually applied as 15m is a hell of a lot of sight at the blindest point on any corner.

[vonhosen]

Black_S3 said:

vonhosen said:

What driving assessment will you not fail for routinely breaking them?

Isn’t there something in the most basic of tests that fails people for not making proper progress? I get where you’re coming from re driving in built up areas but given the thread title thats not whats being discussed? I can’t honestly think of many nsl 60s that everyone would not be constantly down to 20 on if the code was actually applied as 15m is a hell of a lot of sight at the blindest point on any corner.

Making progress relative to the vision available up to but not beyond the speed limit. That's what you do on the basic test & the test attempts to take in a variety of limits including NSLs where possible.

PH really does provide comedy gold at times.

PHers complain about somebody who doesn't immediately get into the left lane after an overtake calling them poor drivers & then in the next breath give countenance to drivers actually driving dangerously by driving faster than the limits of their vision. Without even seeing a hint of irony in it.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 24th April 11:26

[Kewy]

Couple of points from me.

– It's all down to judgement. Good drivers make good judgements. Bad drivers make bad or no judgements. It's not all black and white. You can drive spiritedly without driving like a dick.

– Slower cars are often much more enjoyable to drive both legally and safely than faster cars. I remind myself of this often. Gearbox, chassis and good rubber are much higher up on my priorities when it comes to a car than pure power.

– You can enjoy even the most unlikely cars once you get to know them and you're on the right roads. I just spent the B/H weekend driving round Pembrokeshire. Left the Honda at home as I'm taking it down to the Alps in a couple of weeks, we used my mum's Kia Sportage instead. I had a blast! Don't think I broke the speed limit once, but still shifting up and down gears keeping it in the tiny power band (loosely using the term 'power!), transferring the weight and the roll through corners. Taking the 'racing line' when visibility was good and clear. I've also driven the Alps in a 3-pot Skoda Fabia in the past – awfully painful on some of the climbs but overall very enjoyable!

[Ruskie]

JonDerz said:

Dr Jekyll said:

He lost control going into a B road bend too fast after an overtake, ended up blocking the road and a motorcyclist coming the other way was seriously injured. 10ps was charged with dangerous driving with the prosecution presenting not just the loss of control as evidence but also the testimony of the driver overtaken 'driving like a lunatic engine screaming etc etc' and some social media posts 10ps had made previously that could be interpreted as declaring an intention to drive recklessly. 10ps pleaded guilty and got prison time. He put his account of events on here, it's well worth reading and he did want other people to learn from it, though he did end up getting a bit sanctimonious and seems to have disappeared from PH.

Thanks for sharing, I will see if I can dig anything up from a search.

EDIT: I found his prison diary thread but his post has been deleted, I’m guessing that’s the thread you’re referring to?

Edited by JonDerz on Sunday 21st April 14:36

I remember reading this years ago. Is there an active link?

[vonhosen]

Ruskie said:

JonDerz said:

Dr Jekyll said:

He lost control going into a B road bend too fast after an overtake, ended up blocking the road and a motorcyclist coming the other way was seriously injured. 10ps was charged with dangerous driving with the prosecution presenting not just the loss of control as evidence but also the testimony of the driver overtaken 'driving like a lunatic engine screaming etc etc' and some social media posts 10ps had made previously that could be interpreted as declaring an intention to drive recklessly. 10ps pleaded guilty and got prison time. He put his account of events on here, it's well worth reading and he did want other people to learn from it, though he did end up getting a bit sanctimonious and seems to have disappeared from PH.

Thanks for sharing, I will see if I can dig anything up from a search.

EDIT: I found his prison diary thread but his post has been deleted, I’m guessing that’s the thread you’re referring to?

Edited by JonDerz on Sunday 21st April 14:36

I remember reading this years ago. Is there an active link?

A link to the diary has already been given.

Here it is again

http://dansprisondiary.blogspot.com

[SVS]

vonhosen said:

Of course it's a constant assessment of all manner of stuff, but a corner stone of good driving is the aforementioned stopping rules.

^ this.

Mark Kendrick did a great explanation of cornering skills for road driving that covers exactly this.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

Black_S3 said:

Crippo said:

Does everyone drive down a B road with a view to being able to stop in the distance they can see? Because I don’t see how it’s that realistic. Left rights opening closing corners, humps I can do 30 now 40 now 50 now 30 now 60 now 30. I mean I brake and change gear a lot when driving a fun B road but I’m not explicitly thinking can I stop her, now here, I can see there can I stop there, I’m usually thinking this corner opens closes, open for sighting, balance the car, what the view, how far ahead can I see, can I see traffic ahead, over the hedge, what if it’s a Caterham? It’s constant assessment for all manner of stuff. I’m just not sure being able to stop in a defined distance is it. As I hopefully have described above at defined distance changes constantly more than your speed can and there fore more than your stopping distance. So therefore it must be a blended answer.

Perfectly put & 100% agree.

Neither of you are going to want to hear this, but I hope you'll consider it rather than reject it out of hand.


Being able to stop in the distance you can see is the fundamental rule of good driving. There's a longer, proper definition given above, but you get the idea.

I spend quite bit of time driving with people whose opinion I respect, and the one common factor amongst all their different styles is that they don't go too quickly into hazards. The pace out of hazards can be quite eye-opening, but go in too fast or or make your passengers uncomfortable and there will comments and advice.

You've mentioned a list of considerations about choice of speed on a B-road above. Given all those factors, surely it's not unreasonable to include stopping distance. In fact the challenge of tacking a country road and making good progress without overstepping the mark is what I really enjoy. Balancing all those factors, being smooth and maintaining good pace takes a huge amount of effort - it's possible to find a lot of satisfaction in getting that right.

Pressing the loud pedal is the easy bit, and shouldn't be mistaken for being a good driver.

There is of course the possibility that the sense of danger is what you're actually enjoying about it - I've certainly met drivers where that's the case. If this is you, then it's got to be worth having a think about your choices and weighing up the risks and benefits. Particularly as ignoring it leaves you open to an accusation of Careless or Dangerous Driving, with all grief that would bring with it.

Saying 'that's not realistic, everyone does the same as me and it's not possible to do otherwise' simply isn't the case. It's the kind of argument you hear from coke users or kids who carry knives. If that really is the opinion of very driver you know, then you need to know other drivers. There will be many of us on the thread who could provide an alternative view and a drive together - you only have to ask.

[V8RX7]

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

1) Being able to stop in the distance you can see is the fundamental rule of good driving.

2) The pace out of hazards can be quite eye-opening

3) Pressing the loud pedal is the easy bit, and shouldn't be mistaken for being a good driver.

4) There is of course the possibility that the sense of danger is what you're actually enjoying about it - I've certainly met drivers where that's the case. If this is you, then it's got to be worth having a think about your choices and weighing up the risks and benefits.

1) No that's the fundamental rule of SAFE driving - they are not the same

2) If you find acceleration exciting

3) Exactly, it's down to the car - not the driver

4) This is what many - particularly young drivers - find exciting and why Track Days aren't as exciting, the problem being modern cars protect the driver very well and insulate them from the speed and conditions - when they run out of luck the consequences can be live changing for all

[Dr Jekyll]

V8RX7 said:

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

1) Being able to stop in the distance you can see is the fundamental rule of good driving.

2) The pace out of hazards can be quite eye-opening

3) Pressing the loud pedal is the easy bit, and shouldn't be mistaken for being a good driver.

4) There is of course the possibility that the sense of danger is what you're actually enjoying about it - I've certainly met drivers where that's the case. If this is you, then it's got to be worth having a think about your choices and weighing up the risks and benefits.

1) No that's the fundamental rule of SAFE driving - they are not the same

2) If you find acceleration exciting

3) Exactly, it's down to the car - not the driver

4) This is what many - particularly young drivers - find exciting and why Track Days aren't as exciting, the problem being modern cars protect the driver very well and insulate them from the speed and conditions - when they run out of luck the consequences can be live changing for all

1. There is (a little) more to good driving that safe driving, but safe is the fundamental rule of good driving.
2. Or if you find being the correct gear and spotting the opportunity to accelerate laudable.
3. Agree with you there.
4. Then they are idiots. I suspect in many cases it isn't that they enjoy danger, but habitually passenger with bad drivers so assume that if they aren't scared they aren't going fast enough.

[Graveworm]

V8RX7 said:

1) No that's the fundamental rule of SAFE driving - they are not the same

For most relevant bodies and people - Safe is the primary element of good driving. It takes precedence over smooth, systematic (If that's your thing) and speed.
It seems to me that, if something is a fundamental of safe driving then it is a fundamental of good driving.