One law for them?
Discussion
http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=131665&command=displayContent&sourceNode=124566&home=yes&contentPK=12525110&localNewsNodeId=124522
ALL THESE POLICE CARS WERE CAUGHT SPEEDING ON OUR ROADS LAST YEAR. BUT GUESS HOW MANY DRIVERS WERE FINED...
09:30 - 26 May 2005
Fifty-nine Derbyshire police cars were caught speeding by cameras - apparently without showing a blue light last year.
But in every single case the force decided not to prosecute.
Using the Freedom of Information Act, the Evening Telegraph has learned 59 marked police cars were sent notices of intended prosecution in 2004, after they were photographed speeding but apparently not showing an emergency blue light.
Any emergency vehicle is allowed to speed past the cameras if they are showing a blue light.
After the officers' own divisional commanders and the head of the force's criminal justice department looked at the incidents the 59 cars were attending, they decided none of them should be prosecuted.
Royston Smith, head of Derbyshire police's criminal justice unit, said: "Every case accepted the vehicle being used was for operational police purposes in circumstances where it was necessary for the speed limit to be exceeded in the course of their duties."
Road safety campaigners and residents said that the police should be setting a better example.
Derek Storer (67), of Mount Pleasant Drive, Belper, lost his son, Mark (27), in an accident outside the Esso petrol station in the A6 near Cromford in 1992.
He is a member of RoadPeace, a road accident charity.
"It's disgusting that they were all let off," he said. "It seems to be one law for them and one law for us."
Nathan Marriott, (24), of Hassock Lane, Heanor, said: "If the police are going to an emergency, then fair enough, but otherwise they should adhere to the road traffic rules, and should set an example."
Officers do not have to show blue lights if they are responding to an emergency and they do not want to alert a criminal to their presence.
But if the emergency light is not on, they could be liable for prosecution.
Usually, the officer would radio the staff who monitor the speed cameras if they have sped past a camera with their lights flashing. These 59 did not.
Stuart Barlow, freedom of information manager for the force, also said that some of the officers would not have been prosecuted because the photo may not have picked up that they were actually showing their blues and twos.
On older vehicles the halogen lights rotate, and Mr Barlow said the speed camera photo may have been taken at the exact point the lights were pointing in the wrong direction - away from the camera lens.
All new Derbyshire police cars have a strobe light which flashes on top of the car, which may not be captured by the camera.
When the Evening Telegraph asked if there was more than one light and if they flashed out of sync, the police said that each car had different settings.
Mr Barlow said: "If the people who examine the camera photos cannot see a blue light flashing, they automatically issue a summons.
"Once the officer gets the ticket, they can then appeal and explain
what the use of the vehicle was at that time.
"That is then subjected to a rigorous examination by their divisional commanders and then by the head of the criminal justice section."
Although each incident has already been reported to senior police officers, Mr Barlow said that to provide those same details to the Evening Telegraph would cost us £712.
Under the Freedom of Information Act, someone asking a question can be asked to pay if the organisation feels that to provide the answer would require too many man hours.
In 2004, more than 51,000 speeding tickets were issued by Derbyshire Safety Camera Partnership and Derbyshire police.
ALL THESE POLICE CARS WERE CAUGHT SPEEDING ON OUR ROADS LAST YEAR. BUT GUESS HOW MANY DRIVERS WERE FINED...
09:30 - 26 May 2005
Fifty-nine Derbyshire police cars were caught speeding by cameras - apparently without showing a blue light last year.
But in every single case the force decided not to prosecute.
Using the Freedom of Information Act, the Evening Telegraph has learned 59 marked police cars were sent notices of intended prosecution in 2004, after they were photographed speeding but apparently not showing an emergency blue light.
Any emergency vehicle is allowed to speed past the cameras if they are showing a blue light.
After the officers' own divisional commanders and the head of the force's criminal justice department looked at the incidents the 59 cars were attending, they decided none of them should be prosecuted.
Royston Smith, head of Derbyshire police's criminal justice unit, said: "Every case accepted the vehicle being used was for operational police purposes in circumstances where it was necessary for the speed limit to be exceeded in the course of their duties."
Road safety campaigners and residents said that the police should be setting a better example.
Derek Storer (67), of Mount Pleasant Drive, Belper, lost his son, Mark (27), in an accident outside the Esso petrol station in the A6 near Cromford in 1992.
He is a member of RoadPeace, a road accident charity.
"It's disgusting that they were all let off," he said. "It seems to be one law for them and one law for us."
Nathan Marriott, (24), of Hassock Lane, Heanor, said: "If the police are going to an emergency, then fair enough, but otherwise they should adhere to the road traffic rules, and should set an example."
Officers do not have to show blue lights if they are responding to an emergency and they do not want to alert a criminal to their presence.
But if the emergency light is not on, they could be liable for prosecution.
Usually, the officer would radio the staff who monitor the speed cameras if they have sped past a camera with their lights flashing. These 59 did not.
Stuart Barlow, freedom of information manager for the force, also said that some of the officers would not have been prosecuted because the photo may not have picked up that they were actually showing their blues and twos.
On older vehicles the halogen lights rotate, and Mr Barlow said the speed camera photo may have been taken at the exact point the lights were pointing in the wrong direction - away from the camera lens.
All new Derbyshire police cars have a strobe light which flashes on top of the car, which may not be captured by the camera.
When the Evening Telegraph asked if there was more than one light and if they flashed out of sync, the police said that each car had different settings.
Mr Barlow said: "If the people who examine the camera photos cannot see a blue light flashing, they automatically issue a summons.
"Once the officer gets the ticket, they can then appeal and explain
what the use of the vehicle was at that time.
"That is then subjected to a rigorous examination by their divisional commanders and then by the head of the criminal justice section."
Although each incident has already been reported to senior police officers, Mr Barlow said that to provide those same details to the Evening Telegraph would cost us £712.
Under the Freedom of Information Act, someone asking a question can be asked to pay if the organisation feels that to provide the answer would require too many man hours.
In 2004, more than 51,000 speeding tickets were issued by Derbyshire Safety Camera Partnership and Derbyshire police.
catso said:
On older vehicles the halogen lights rotate, and Mr Barlow said the speed camera photo may have been taken at the exact point the lights were pointing in the wrong direction - away from the camera lens.
All new Derbyshire police cars have a strobe light which flashes on top of the car, which may not be captured by the camera.
Bluementhol said:
On older vehicles the halogen lights rotate, and Mr Barlow said the speed camera photo may have been taken at the exact point the lights were pointing in the wrong direction - away from the camera lens.
All new Derbyshire police cars have a strobe light which flashes on top of the car, which may not be captured by the camera.
What! 59 of 'em? 
.......nah! Nah! nah! Nah! nah! Nah! nah! Nah! nah! Nah! nah! Nah! 
Lancashire Ambulance service had the same problem. They had to take extra staff on to handle the paper work of checking records to see if the times matched an emergency call as they were getting so many NIP.
In the end they have fitted an extra non flashing blue light to the back of the ambulances.
In the end they have fitted an extra non flashing blue light to the back of the ambulances.
The law is clear - there is no case to answer for police cars driven above the posted speed limit.
Dangerous driving is a different matter, and should be investigated and prosecuted to its fullest extent - regardless of whether on a shout, blue lights, or just "testing equipment".
Exceeding the posted speed limit is not evidence of dangerous driving.
Dangerous driving is a different matter, and should be investigated and prosecuted to its fullest extent - regardless of whether on a shout, blue lights, or just "testing equipment".
Exceeding the posted speed limit is not evidence of dangerous driving.
Caroline Chisholm of the road safety charity Brake said:
I'm afraid this smacks of double standards. The vast majority of people are safe drivers and they are getting fed up with being penalised for exceeding a speed limit by a very narrow margin. Little wonder they lose confidence in the police when officers are seen to escape punishment for the same offence
She'll get the sack for talking like a PHer but good to see someone from Brake talking some sense, no matter how short-lived
russ35 said:
Lancashire Ambulance service had the same problem. They had to take extra staff on to handle the paper work of checking records to see if the times matched an emergency call as they were getting so many NIP.
In the end they have fitted an extra non flashing blue light to the back of the ambulances.
Staffordshire ditto, Ambulance service employed one person full time just dealing with NoIPs.
In the end they spent 30k (afair) to fit blue lights front and back which are permanently lit when blue strobes on.
Rolled out to all other EVs.
Flat in Fifth said:
Staffordshire ditto, Ambulance service employed one person full time just dealing with NoIPs.
In the end they spent 30k (afair) to fit blue lights front and back which are permanently lit when blue strobes on.
Rolled out to all other EVs.
Surely this is ridiculous. The picture shows an ambulance. The PNC (or whatever they check) presumably shows "Emergency vehicle" keeper "Staffordshire NHS Trust" or whatever.
Why aren't the NIPs just thrown in the bin? Yet more stupid, bureaucratic wastage of taxpayers money
john_p said:
Staffordshire ditto, Ambulance service employed one person full time just dealing with NoIPs.
In the end they spent 30k (afair) to fit blue lights front and back which are permanently lit when blue strobes on.
Rolled out to all other EVs.
Surely this is ridiculous. The picture shows an ambulance. The PNC (or whatever they check) presumably shows "Emergency vehicle" keeper "Staffordshire NHS Trust" or whatever.
Why aren't the NIPs just thrown in the bin? Yet more stupid, bureaucratic wastage of taxpayers money
The argument the scamps used was that either they couldn't see the blue lights, or that they could see them but how did they know that this was a legitimate blue light run.
Therefore the ambulance authority had to show "due diligence" in investigating the case.
Remember this was the same ambulance authority where a boy died because there was not enough resource to transport a seriously ill patient a few hundred metres even though doctors asked time and time again.
I agree, stupid, bureaucratic and a whole heap of other unprintable stuff, basically revovling around the phrase "same trousers different pockets" and that is beside the usual camera type stuff.
They would complain even more if they reported a burglary in progress on their houses and the Police attended without any speed to catch them!
Using blue lights and sirens tends to alert criminals to police presence. At night it is worse!
Sometimes the use of blue lights can actually hinder progress rather than help it!
Using blue lights and sirens tends to alert criminals to police presence. At night it is worse!
Sometimes the use of blue lights can actually hinder progress rather than help it!
gone said:
They would complain even more if they reported a burglary in progress on their houses and the Police attended without any speed to catch them!
Using blue lights and sirens tends to alert criminals to police presence. At night it is worse!
Sometimes the use of blue lights can actually hinder progress rather than help it!
Amazing thats its deemed perfectly safe for even a panda patrol (pug 306 etc) with a wet behind the lugs kid behind the wheel to travel over the speed limits, yet if we do it we are deemed to be "Dangerous".
What bull.
Well call me old fashioned, but doesn't every policeman you've ever known privately admit that they regularly break the speed limit on and off duty, for the same reasons the rest of us do, except we can't pull them over and commence a prosecution. Whenever they cause a crash (accident wouldn't be an accurate description) there's usually a 'false alarm' call invented to justify the speeding / driving on the hard shoulder to avoid jams / running red lights etc. Let's face it, they catch less than 5% of burglars in the act, so where are they speeding to most of the time?
deltafox said:
They would complain even more if they reported a burglary in progress on their houses and the Police attended without any speed to catch them!
Using blue lights and sirens tends to alert criminals to police presence. At night it is worse!
Sometimes the use of blue lights can actually hinder progress rather than help it!
Amazing thats its deemed perfectly safe for even a panda patrol (pug 306 etc) with a wet behind the lugs kid behind the wheel to travel over the speed limits, yet if we do it we are deemed to be "Dangerous".
What bull.
You are totally confused my friend
It is not necessarily safe for Police/emergency vehicles to exceed the limits. It is however necessary for them to do so to attend emergency incidents. The public say so and that is reflected in the legislation covering speed.
A wet behind the ears Kid in a pug 306 may have an exemption for exceeding the limit but not for dangerous driving!
You, unfortunately have neither
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