Driver Awareness Course - bizarre advice?
Discussion
vonhosen said:
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
My understanding is that exceeding* the posted speed limit during a driving test means instant failure. But maybe I'm wrong ?* speedo reading
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
My understanding is that exceeding* the posted speed limit during a driving test means instant failure. But maybe I'm wrong ?* speedo reading
Depending on that matter of degree it can result in being assessed (using the tools of assessment) as a fault not worthy of recording, right through to a dangerous fault & all positions in between those.
Like a lot of things in life the answer is it depends, but the moment you exceed the speedo reading it is not an instant failure.
98elise said:
kambites said:
Ari said:
So his advice is to only drive in 2nd gear in a 20mph limit and never higher than 3rd gear in a 30mph limit, irrespective of what the car is. He also said on modern cars with economy lights telling you to shift up, you can put the light out by simply lifting completely off the accelerator. Which probably works, albeit with the slight inconvenience that you'll grind to a halt...
Seems daft to me too but I'm pretty sure driving instructors teach people to use 3rd in a 30 limit these days too. My car is happiest and mot efficient in 5th in a 30 limit as long as it's not up-hill. ETA: For people who are incapable of keeping their speed down to 30 in 30 limits, being in a lower gear probably does help.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 6th August 19:56
The car is far more responsive in 3rd (obviously) and there's more engine braking. To me it feels more "in control". I'll put it in 4th if there's a long gentle slope and/or there's little or no traffic about but, for the main I find 3rd/30, 4th/40. 5th/50 works well.
And this doesn't seem to vary between different cars. There are 5-6 manual cars that I use on an occasional basis, from a 1l Yaris to a 2L Tiguan and they all seem to be happy in those gears at those speeds.
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
My understanding is that exceeding* the posted speed limit during a driving test means instant failure. But maybe I'm wrong ?* speedo reading
I had similar "advice" doing my IAM (probably 12 years ago) and once I explained my car had short gearing and 4th was a similar ratio to 3rd in most cars they were ok with 4th at 30, 5th at 40, 6th at 50.
Red Devil said:
280E said:
loskie said:
Also berated me for answering that a measure of pressure was PSI.
And of course if by 'PSI' you meant 'pounds per square inch', then you were indeed wrongOthers are available - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQn1Lat73AE
Nothing wrong with pounds-force per square inch (lbf/in2) or indeed pounds-force per square kilometre - but, in the black-and-white world of physics, 'pounds per square inch' is incorrect.
[/information not relevant to thread, but interesting nonetheless]
blank said:
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
bigdog3 said:
vonhosen said:
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
My understanding is that exceeding* the posted speed limit during a driving test means instant failure. But maybe I'm wrong ?* speedo reading
vonhosen said:
RSTurboPaul said:
caiss4 said:
I advise my students to use 3rd for 30mph zones! I do discuss the reasons why with them.
Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I completely understand why you do this but, having been stuck behind a learner doing 27-28mph in a 30mph limit that should be a 40mph limit based on the 85th percentile traffic speeds and a road layout that's not changed for decades but has had the speed limit reduced, it is also incredibly frustrating and causes tailgating and risky overtaking.Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I am dreading the day that 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation becomes active (2022 unless we do something about it now...) because it will just mean crawling trains of cars stuck behind someone that thinks sticking to a number that the car tells them is the limit makes them safe.
I know you are not teaching that, and I'm sure you are fully aware of how appropriate speeds vary from second to second and do not depend on the sign, but any test that is 100% rigid in its application WRT numbers on a pole vs numbers on a dial, regardless of road conditions, is surely unrepresentative of real life and setting people up to cause issues on the road when they are eventually driving on their own?
[/off topic]
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
The first point comes back to the fact that speed limits need to be set appropriately, i.e. 85th percentile instead of Mean Speed then rounded down
- but Government seems not to understand that fact within Setting Local Speed Limits 01/2006 / 01/2013, and anti-car 'safety' groups, such as Brake, are all for making people mindlessly bimble about at 20mph for no good reason!I despair!!
RSTurboPaul said:
vonhosen said:
RSTurboPaul said:
caiss4 said:
I advise my students to use 3rd for 30mph zones! I do discuss the reasons why with them.
Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I completely understand why you do this but, having been stuck behind a learner doing 27-28mph in a 30mph limit that should be a 40mph limit based on the 85th percentile traffic speeds and a road layout that's not changed for decades but has had the speed limit reduced, it is also incredibly frustrating and causes tailgating and risky overtaking.Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I am dreading the day that 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation becomes active (2022 unless we do something about it now...) because it will just mean crawling trains of cars stuck behind someone that thinks sticking to a number that the car tells them is the limit makes them safe.
I know you are not teaching that, and I'm sure you are fully aware of how appropriate speeds vary from second to second and do not depend on the sign, but any test that is 100% rigid in its application WRT numbers on a pole vs numbers on a dial, regardless of road conditions, is surely unrepresentative of real life and setting people up to cause issues on the road when they are eventually driving on their own?
[/off topic]
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
The first point comes back to the fact that speed limits need to be set appropriately, i.e. 85th percentile instead of Mean Speed then rounded down
- but Government seems not to understand that fact within Setting Local Speed Limits 01/2006 / 01/2013, and anti-car 'safety' groups, such as Brake, are all for making people mindlessly bimble about at 20mph for no good reason!I despair!!
The elected government make the rules.
If they are driving at 28 in a 30 & you want to drive at 40, they are doing what they are supposed to & if you are getting frustrated by that you are struggling to both do what you should be doing & deal effectively with them doing what they are.
Pica-Pica said:
Kinetic energy is mass times the square of the speed. So, with a similar car, twice the speed has four times the energy, and therefore takes four times longer to stop.
100mph car has twice as much energy as one at70mph
70mph twice as much as at 50mph
50mph twice as much as at 36 mph
Transfer of kinetic energy is what heats up the brakes. The car travels a lot further because it slows down at a fairly constant rate and you cover ground faster when braking from higher speeds.100mph car has twice as much energy as one at70mph
70mph twice as much as at 50mph
50mph twice as much as at 36 mph
defblade said:
Yep, 20/2nd, 30/3rd, 40/4th, 50/5th in general for me in manual cars. It's not so much about keeping the speed down as being able to roll on and off the throttle, losing and gaining a few mph as necessary to make smooth progress through the various obstacles, oncoming traffic, roundabouts etc etc in a 30.
FredClogs said:
I'd go with the 2nd in a 20mph etc... Its not the most efficient from a fueling point of view but you should be driving your car at around the point its making peak torque, it gives you maximum engine breaking and maximum ability to accelerate out of (into) trouble.
Jeez the incompetence on display here is unreal! How much throttle response, engine braking and potentially accelerating out of trouble might you need?! Never heard of planning ahead, driving smoothly etc? You must be screaming the nuts off your engines and kangaroo jumping all over the place in the lower gears! Not to mention the emissions! vonhosen said:
If they are driving at 28 in a 30 & you want to drive at 40, they are doing what they are supposed to & if you are getting frustrated by that you are struggling to both do what you should be doing & deal effectively with them doing what they are.
Stanley Unwin could not have said it better 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFB_FS9rV0c
tannhauser said:
defblade said:
Yep, 20/2nd, 30/3rd, 40/4th, 50/5th in general for me in manual cars. It's not so much about keeping the speed down as being able to roll on and off the throttle, losing and gaining a few mph as necessary to make smooth progress through the various obstacles, oncoming traffic, roundabouts etc etc in a 30.
FredClogs said:
I'd go with the 2nd in a 20mph etc... Its not the most efficient from a fueling point of view but you should be driving your car at around the point its making peak torque, it gives you maximum engine breaking and maximum ability to accelerate out of (into) trouble.
Jeez the incompetence on display here is unreal! How much throttle response, engine braking and potentially accelerating out of trouble might you need?! Never heard of planning ahead, driving smoothly etc? You must be screaming the nuts off your engines and kangaroo jumping all over the place in the lower gears! Not to mention the emissions! Speed / gear is totally car dependent, there isn't a one-size-fits-all in this context.
Donbot said:
Pica-Pica said:
Kinetic energy is mass times the square of the speed. So, with a similar car, twice the speed has four times the energy, and therefore takes four times longer to stop.
100mph car has twice as much energy as one at70mph
70mph twice as much as at 50mph
50mph twice as much as at 36 mph
Transfer of kinetic energy is what heats up the brakes. The car travels a lot further because it slows down at a fairly constant rate and you cover ground faster when braking from higher speeds.100mph car has twice as much energy as one at70mph
70mph twice as much as at 50mph
50mph twice as much as at 36 mph
Pretty basic stuff...
tannhauser said:
defblade said:
Yep, 20/2nd, 30/3rd, 40/4th, 50/5th in general for me in manual cars. It's not so much about keeping the speed down as being able to roll on and off the throttle, losing and gaining a few mph as necessary to make smooth progress through the various obstacles, oncoming traffic, roundabouts etc etc in a 30.
FredClogs said:
I'd go with the 2nd in a 20mph etc... Its not the most efficient from a fueling point of view but you should be driving your car at around the point its making peak torque, it gives you maximum engine breaking and maximum ability to accelerate out of (into) trouble.
Jeez the incompetence on display here is unreal! How much throttle response, engine braking and potentially accelerating out of trouble might you need?! Never heard of planning ahead, driving smoothly etc? You must be screaming the nuts off your engines and kangaroo jumping all over the place in the lower gears! Not to mention the emissions! Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff