Driver Awareness Course - bizarre advice?
Discussion
Of the two SACs that I’ve been on, both were run by the aa and delivered by stereotypical ex plods replete with full police-speak vocab 
The 3rd in a 30 and various other ‘tips’ were present along with the idea that that some signage and road furniture is driven by instances of KSI - this actually seems fairly logical imo. If a sharp, blind bend on a nsl road has a SLOW marking on the road and black and yellow directional chevron sign then it’s because some people have failed to drive round it and survive the experience.
Question for popopbangbang: in a modern car with abs is it fair to say that the shortest stopping distance would be achieved by triggering the abs? One of my cars has an EBD system that distributes braking force between the wheels before abs is triggered (and also flashes the hazards), this can be clearly felt as the car squirms under heavy braking.
As a club racing ‘braking enthusiast’ (cheers Bert!
) I’ve always been under the impression that max retardation is achieved just before the point of lockup (and abs triggering), however my race car has no abs, and so in that I’m always trying to hit that balancing point.
The 3rd in a 30 and various other ‘tips’ were present along with the idea that that some signage and road furniture is driven by instances of KSI - this actually seems fairly logical imo. If a sharp, blind bend on a nsl road has a SLOW marking on the road and black and yellow directional chevron sign then it’s because some people have failed to drive round it and survive the experience.
Question for popopbangbang: in a modern car with abs is it fair to say that the shortest stopping distance would be achieved by triggering the abs? One of my cars has an EBD system that distributes braking force between the wheels before abs is triggered (and also flashes the hazards), this can be clearly felt as the car squirms under heavy braking.
As a club racing ‘braking enthusiast’ (cheers Bert!
) I’ve always been under the impression that max retardation is achieved just before the point of lockup (and abs triggering), however my race car has no abs, and so in that I’m always trying to hit that balancing point.BaronVonVaderham said:
Of the two SACs that I’ve been on, both were run by the aa and delivered by stereotypical ex plods replete with full police-speak vocab
The 3rd in a 30 and various other ‘tips’ were present along with the idea that that some signage and road furniture is driven by instances of KSI - this actually seems fairly logical imo. If a sharp, blind bend on a nsl road has a SLOW marking on the road and black and yellow directional chevron sign then it’s because some people have failed to drive round it and survive the experience.
Question for popopbangbang: in a modern car with abs is it fair to say that the shortest stopping distance would be achieved by triggering the abs? One of my cars has an EBD system that distributes braking force between the wheels before abs is triggered (and also flashes the hazards), this can be clearly felt as the car squirms under heavy braking.
As a club racing ‘braking enthusiast’ (cheers Bert!) I’ve always been under the impression that max retardation is achieved just before the point of lockup (and abs triggering), however my race car has no abs, and so in that I’m always trying to hit that balancing point.
I'm not 'popopbangbang' but you're basically correct. Maximum braking is (usually) observed just before/at the point of the wheels locking, which is why ABS holds the car at that point through exceedingly rapid (re)application of the brakes, resulting in the characteristic pulsing/judder. On non-ABS cars cadence braking can be used to similar effect, albeit not actually as effective (humans are not computers!). Exceptions to ABS stopping faster include snow, where a non-ABS car with locked wheels can often stop faster due to building up a wedge of snow that the ABS car will drive over (due to not locking up). The 3rd in a 30 and various other ‘tips’ were present along with the idea that that some signage and road furniture is driven by instances of KSI - this actually seems fairly logical imo. If a sharp, blind bend on a nsl road has a SLOW marking on the road and black and yellow directional chevron sign then it’s because some people have failed to drive round it and survive the experience.
Question for popopbangbang: in a modern car with abs is it fair to say that the shortest stopping distance would be achieved by triggering the abs? One of my cars has an EBD system that distributes braking force between the wheels before abs is triggered (and also flashes the hazards), this can be clearly felt as the car squirms under heavy braking.
As a club racing ‘braking enthusiast’ (cheers Bert!
) I’ve always been under the impression that max retardation is achieved just before the point of lockup (and abs triggering), however my race car has no abs, and so in that I’m always trying to hit that balancing point.BaronVonVaderham said:
Of the two SACs that I’ve been on, both were run by the aa and delivered by stereotypical ex plods replete with full police-speak vocab
The 3rd in a 30 and various other ‘tips’ were present along with the idea that that some signage and road furniture is driven by instances of KSI - this actually seems fairly logical imo. If a sharp, blind bend on a nsl road has a SLOW marking on the road and black and yellow directional chevron sign then it’s because some people have failed to drive round it and survive the experience.
Question for popopbangbang: in a modern car with abs is it fair to say that the shortest stopping distance would be achieved by triggering the abs? One of my cars has an EBD system that distributes braking force between the wheels before abs is triggered (and also flashes the hazards), this can be clearly felt as the car squirms under heavy braking.
As a club racing ‘braking enthusiast’ (cheers Bert!) I’ve always been under the impression that max retardation is achieved just before the point of lockup (and abs triggering), however my race car has no abs, and so in that I’m always trying to hit that balancing point.
I too received the mantra that if there is a Slow marking that's because there has been a ksi incident, but this was many years ago even before speed cameras never mind these courses. Nowadsys I can go down roads with so many slow signs that it just doesn't correspond with the collision history as recorded on the system unless there has been some sort of armageddon. That is unless a ksi in some areas has been redefined to a person in the vehicle receiving an unkind comment on their Faceache page.The 3rd in a 30 and various other ‘tips’ were present along with the idea that that some signage and road furniture is driven by instances of KSI - this actually seems fairly logical imo. If a sharp, blind bend on a nsl road has a SLOW marking on the road and black and yellow directional chevron sign then it’s because some people have failed to drive round it and survive the experience.
Question for popopbangbang: in a modern car with abs is it fair to say that the shortest stopping distance would be achieved by triggering the abs? One of my cars has an EBD system that distributes braking force between the wheels before abs is triggered (and also flashes the hazards), this can be clearly felt as the car squirms under heavy braking.
As a club racing ‘braking enthusiast’ (cheers Bert!
) I’ve always been under the impression that max retardation is achieved just before the point of lockup (and abs triggering), however my race car has no abs, and so in that I’m always trying to hit that balancing point.More seriously though, I think it's still valid to say that councils don't like to spend money on the road network unless they really have to. Therefore reckon it's a good plan that if you're approaching an area with quite a few signs and white paint then it's a reasonable approach to think that there must be sufficient evidence of previous incidents for them to have spent the money. The more signs the greater the dangers perhaps.
FiF said:
I too received the mantra that if there is a Slow marking that's because there has been a ksi incident, but this was many years ago even before speed cameras never mind these courses. Nowadsys I can go down roads with so many slow signs that it just doesn't correspond with the collision history as recorded on the system unless there has been some sort of armageddon. That is unless a ksi in some areas has been redefined to a person in the vehicle receiving an unkind comment on their Faceache page.
More seriously though, I think it's still valid to say that councils don't like to spend money on the road network unless they really have to. Therefore reckon it's a good plan that if you're approaching an area with quite a few signs and white paint then it's a reasonable approach to think that there must be sufficient evidence of previous incidents for them to have spent the money. The more signs the greater the dangers perhaps.
Just one of the many old wives' tales spouted. There was probably some truth in it somewhere, some time ago. Try asking how that works uniformly across the country, rules, convention, what? There's no answer other than harumph!More seriously though, I think it's still valid to say that councils don't like to spend money on the road network unless they really have to. Therefore reckon it's a good plan that if you're approaching an area with quite a few signs and white paint then it's a reasonable approach to think that there must be sufficient evidence of previous incidents for them to have spent the money. The more signs the greater the dangers perhaps.
tannhauser said:
defblade said:
Yep, 20/2nd, 30/3rd, 40/4th, 50/5th in general for me in manual cars. It's not so much about keeping the speed down as being able to roll on and off the throttle, losing and gaining a few mph as necessary to make smooth progress through the various obstacles, oncoming traffic, roundabouts etc etc in a 30.
FredClogs said:
I'd go with the 2nd in a 20mph etc... Its not the most efficient from a fueling point of view but you should be driving your car at around the point its making peak torque, it gives you maximum engine breaking and maximum ability to accelerate out of (into) trouble.
Jeez the incompetence on display here is unreal! How much throttle response, engine braking and potentially accelerating out of trouble might you need?! Never heard of planning ahead, driving smoothly etc? You must be screaming the nuts off your engines and kangaroo jumping all over the place in the lower gears! Not to mention the emissions! Sitting in 2nd at 20mph or 3rd at 30mph is just ridiculous.
Regards a SAC being hosted by ex-plod “instructors” or police staff, I wouldn’t attach too much value to that.
The cretin who delivered most of my response driving course referred to Tiptronic gearboxes repeatedly as Triptonic and declared that “understeer is when you don’t steer enough, and over steer is when you steer too much”.
The cretin who delivered most of my response driving course referred to Tiptronic gearboxes repeatedly as Triptonic and declared that “understeer is when you don’t steer enough, and over steer is when you steer too much”.
vonhosen said:
RSTurboPaul said:
vonhosen said:
RSTurboPaul said:
caiss4 said:
I advise my students to use 3rd for 30mph zones! I do discuss the reasons why with them.
Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I completely understand why you do this but, having been stuck behind a learner doing 27-28mph in a 30mph limit that should be a 40mph limit based on the 85th percentile traffic speeds and a road layout that's not changed for decades but has had the speed limit reduced, it is also incredibly frustrating and causes tailgating and risky overtaking.Firstly, the advice for learners is to drive just below 30mph in 30's (say 28). This is to allow some tolerance for downhill gradients. Remember, there's no 10% +2 tolerance for speeding in the test; just a small overspeed can result in test failure.
I am dreading the day that 'Intelligent' Speed Adaptation becomes active (2022 unless we do something about it now...) because it will just mean crawling trains of cars stuck behind someone that thinks sticking to a number that the car tells them is the limit makes them safe.
I know you are not teaching that, and I'm sure you are fully aware of how appropriate speeds vary from second to second and do not depend on the sign, but any test that is 100% rigid in its application WRT numbers on a pole vs numbers on a dial, regardless of road conditions, is surely unrepresentative of real life and setting people up to cause issues on the road when they are eventually driving on their own?
[/off topic]
A small isolated overspeed shouldn't be resulting in a fail for them on test.
The first point comes back to the fact that speed limits need to be set appropriately, i.e. 85th percentile instead of Mean Speed then rounded down
- but Government seems not to understand that fact within Setting Local Speed Limits 01/2006 / 01/2013, and anti-car 'safety' groups, such as Brake, are all for making people mindlessly bimble about at 20mph for no good reason!I despair!!
The elected government make the rules.
If they are driving at 28 in a 30 & you want to drive at 40, they are doing what they are supposed to & if you are getting frustrated by that you are struggling to both do what you should be doing & deal effectively with them doing what they are.
It is not the learner doing what they must that is the issue, it is the inappropriate speed limit that causes the frustration.
If speed limits are set at the ~50th percentile (or something like the 13th percentile in most 20 limits, going from the official statistics...: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen... ) then they do not reflect user behaviour and are incorrect and should be based on the 85th percentile speeds, and/or the road layout and surrounding environment needs to be changed to deliver the desired vehicle speeds if lower speeds are sought..
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Saturday 10th August 20:10
RSTurboPaul said:
vonhosen said:
Real life is what it is, not what you want it to be.
The elected government make the rules.
If they are driving at 28 in a 30 & you want to drive at 40, they are doing what they are supposed to & if you are getting frustrated by that you are struggling to both do what you should be doing & deal effectively with them doing what they are.
I agree - I do struggle at times to not get extremely frustrated in that situation.The elected government make the rules.
If they are driving at 28 in a 30 & you want to drive at 40, they are doing what they are supposed to & if you are getting frustrated by that you are struggling to both do what you should be doing & deal effectively with them doing what they are.
It is not the learner doing what they must that is the issue, it is the inappropriate speed limit that causes the frustration.
If speed limits are set at the ~50th percentile (or something like the 13th percentile in most 20 limits, going from the official statistics...: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen... then they do not reflect user behaviour and are incorrect and should be based on the 85th percentile speeds, and/or the road layout and surrounding environment needs to be changed to deliver the desired vehicle speeds if lower speeds are sought..
All that'll happen is they'll fine you & give you points.
We either learn to deal with that or a world of pain beckons.
I'd personally travel much faster than most limits given the freedom to choose, but realistically it's not going to happen, so I tend to just travel at speeds that aren't going to attract sanction. I'm accepting of that & as such it doesn't cause me stress or frustration. I simply plan my journeys according to what the limits are, not what speed I'd wish to travel at.
FredClogs said:
I'd go with the 2nd in a 20mph etc... Its not the most efficient from a fueling point of view but you should be driving your car at around the point its making peak torque, it gives you maximum engine breaking and maximum ability to accelerate out of (into) trouble.
I do not ever want to break my engine, thanks!Cliftonite said:
FredClogs said:
I'd go with the 2nd in a 20mph etc... Its not the most efficient from a fueling point of view but you should be driving your car at around the point its making peak torque, it gives you maximum engine breaking and maximum ability to accelerate out of (into) trouble.
I do not ever want to break my engine, thanks!
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