Driver Awareness Course - bizarre advice?
Discussion
FiF said:
Noting the naysayers comments have been doing a bit of experimentation, this is in a 2.2TD and a 6 speed Aisin torque converter auto box. Figures in table below are with box set in manual mode and the torque converter appearing to be locked, it was very easy with minor throttle changes at the highest gear low revs setting to cause the TC to slip.
One comment about the 30 in 4th. Slow down to 27 and it shifts automatically down to 3rd, and just before then it's clear the engine is starting to be outside comfort zone.
So looking at those figures it seems to me to support the 2nd in 20 etc advice.
Next step was to check the in a 30 put it in Sport rather than leave it in D. Test area was a 30 limit through the village, some parts of it flat but also some undulating sections.
Essentially on the flat sections with extremely light featherfoot on the gas could get it to stay in 4th, just. As soon as any upgrade, and do mean any, then the box would change down to 3rd, any slight extra on the throttle, likewise. In summary it goes through the village not being able to make mind up, 3 / 4 / 3 / 4, frankly a pita. Put it in Sport, sits in 3rd, stays in 3rd even varying speeds. Only way to keep it in 4th in D mode was to drive noticeably over 30.
So as far as I'm concerned, for this vehicle and ime also others driven, petrol, diesel, auto , manual the advice of the instructor on the OP's SAC wasn't that far out. Secondly those rabbiting on about 2nd in 20 etc breaking engines due to excessive revs are talking twaddle unless the vehicle is very very low geared.
Thanks for taking the trouble to gather and present this useful data | == | =2nd= | =3rd= | =4th= | =5th= |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 20 | 1800 | 1300 | --- | --- |
| 30 | 2300 | 1800 | 1300 | --- |
| 40 | not measured | 2300 | 1800 | 1250 |
One comment about the 30 in 4th. Slow down to 27 and it shifts automatically down to 3rd, and just before then it's clear the engine is starting to be outside comfort zone.
So looking at those figures it seems to me to support the 2nd in 20 etc advice.
Next step was to check the in a 30 put it in Sport rather than leave it in D. Test area was a 30 limit through the village, some parts of it flat but also some undulating sections.
Essentially on the flat sections with extremely light featherfoot on the gas could get it to stay in 4th, just. As soon as any upgrade, and do mean any, then the box would change down to 3rd, any slight extra on the throttle, likewise. In summary it goes through the village not being able to make mind up, 3 / 4 / 3 / 4, frankly a pita. Put it in Sport, sits in 3rd, stays in 3rd even varying speeds. Only way to keep it in 4th in D mode was to drive noticeably over 30.
So as far as I'm concerned, for this vehicle and ime also others driven, petrol, diesel, auto , manual the advice of the instructor on the OP's SAC wasn't that far out. Secondly those rabbiting on about 2nd in 20 etc breaking engines due to excessive revs are talking twaddle unless the vehicle is very very low geared.
Agreed 4th is too high on this car at 30mph. 1300rpm is outside the working range. Modern diesels tend to give lowest BSFC and emissions over the 1500 to 3000rpm range. So 1800rpm in 3rd at 30mph is ideal
poppopbangbang said:
I had an experience several years ago where a similar sort of chap told the room with a straight face that "a professional driver can always stop quicker without ABS but it makes you lot safer because you aren't that skilled". I questioned this based on my experience of calibrating Bosch ABS systems for motosport and road car use along with, at the time, being a paid test driver which eventually resulted in being told to be quite or I would be marked as having not attended.
during some training at Millbrook i was coached to "outbrake" the ABS system, over multiple straight line runs. this was a Bosch system of 2010 vintage. i'm no driving god, this was just an exercise, in a safe environment and with several practice runs. Real life and the need to steer clearly make ABS worthwhile.
maybe the systems are better now?
just guessing, maybe if you feel the wheels about to lock and react you'll out brake older ABS that relied upon momentary lock up?
Received same "advice" re gears, and I think also Sport setting, at my course last month. They must be taught this stuff.
Totally agree with mix of common sense + b
ks on the syllabus and I'd add screwed statistics to prove that 31MPH is deadly compared to 30MPH, hence we should all stop playing Russian roulette with innocent lives. The annoying touch of superiority over the clueless criminals on the course was the icing on the cake.
Totally agree with mix of common sense + b
ks on the syllabus and I'd add screwed statistics to prove that 31MPH is deadly compared to 30MPH, hence we should all stop playing Russian roulette with innocent lives. The annoying touch of superiority over the clueless criminals on the course was the icing on the cake.Ari said:
I was on a Driver Awareness Course today, after lethally piloting my car up a clear straight dry empty three lane road (two in my direction) in the middle of nowhere at a breakneck 60mph (saw the camera van but thought it was a 60, it was 50mph, so my fault).
The chap taking the course was a driving instructor in his sixties I'd say with a long history of HGV driving, HGV training, then car training. His shirt said 'police staff', not sure if he actually driver trains police officers (think so).
Most of the course was basically common sense which is a bit boring for those of us that already possess it, but hey ho.
But the bit I found odd was his 'tips for controlling car speed and sticking to the limit'.
According to him, cars are designed to run most efficiently at 50-60mph, and he reckons that the problem is that therefore it's hard to keep the speed down in a higher gear, which he reckons we're all taught to be in.
So his advice is to only drive in 2nd gear in a 20mph limit and never higher than 3rd gear in a 30mph limit, irrespective of what the car is. He also said on modern cars with economy lights telling you to shift up, you can put the light out by simply lifting completely off the accelerator. Which probably works, albeit with the slight inconvenience that you'll grind to a halt...
For automatics it got even more bizarre. His advice was, when entering a 40mph or 30mph limit, you should put the gearbox into Sport Mode. This, he reckoned, would engage another set of lower gears, therefore making it easier to control the car speed. Once back on NSL roads, put it back in Comfort Mode.
Now I know for a fact that's utter nonsense. I've driven autos for years, Sport Mode makes the car more responsive to the throttle, kicking down a gear or two more quickly and letting the revs build higher when accelerating firmly. But they still revert to whatever gear you'd be in if you'd selected Comfort Mode when on an even throttle (as you would be most of the time when coasting through a 30mph zone). If anything, I'd have thought it's going to give the inept less car control as it will be more eager to kick down and accelerate.
Oh, and he doesn't like cruise controls 'because of aquaplaning' (I can only guess he's referring to the urban myth that occasionally does the Facebook rounds about the copper who apparently tells a woman who crashed that it's because she was on cruise control, when the car aquaplaned the cruise control made it suddenly accelerate, causing her to crash).
Oh and the final gem was him saying that the record for speeding in his county was a Porsche clocked at 155mph. But it was limited to that and no car will ever go faster because they are all limited to 155mph.
The whole thing struck me as utterly bonkers advice, especially the idea of people driving for miles in a 30mph in third (which might be sound for a fast high geared car, but surely not a 'shopping trolley' Ford Ka or similar?) And the engaging Sport Mode to get a lower gear on an auto.?
Or is his advice sound do you think?
It's the standard lines they trot out, and the guys hosting them are all pretty much sociopaths anyway The chap taking the course was a driving instructor in his sixties I'd say with a long history of HGV driving, HGV training, then car training. His shirt said 'police staff', not sure if he actually driver trains police officers (think so).
Most of the course was basically common sense which is a bit boring for those of us that already possess it, but hey ho.
But the bit I found odd was his 'tips for controlling car speed and sticking to the limit'.
According to him, cars are designed to run most efficiently at 50-60mph, and he reckons that the problem is that therefore it's hard to keep the speed down in a higher gear, which he reckons we're all taught to be in.
So his advice is to only drive in 2nd gear in a 20mph limit and never higher than 3rd gear in a 30mph limit, irrespective of what the car is. He also said on modern cars with economy lights telling you to shift up, you can put the light out by simply lifting completely off the accelerator. Which probably works, albeit with the slight inconvenience that you'll grind to a halt...
For automatics it got even more bizarre. His advice was, when entering a 40mph or 30mph limit, you should put the gearbox into Sport Mode. This, he reckoned, would engage another set of lower gears, therefore making it easier to control the car speed. Once back on NSL roads, put it back in Comfort Mode.
Now I know for a fact that's utter nonsense. I've driven autos for years, Sport Mode makes the car more responsive to the throttle, kicking down a gear or two more quickly and letting the revs build higher when accelerating firmly. But they still revert to whatever gear you'd be in if you'd selected Comfort Mode when on an even throttle (as you would be most of the time when coasting through a 30mph zone). If anything, I'd have thought it's going to give the inept less car control as it will be more eager to kick down and accelerate.
Oh, and he doesn't like cruise controls 'because of aquaplaning' (I can only guess he's referring to the urban myth that occasionally does the Facebook rounds about the copper who apparently tells a woman who crashed that it's because she was on cruise control, when the car aquaplaned the cruise control made it suddenly accelerate, causing her to crash).
Oh and the final gem was him saying that the record for speeding in his county was a Porsche clocked at 155mph. But it was limited to that and no car will ever go faster because they are all limited to 155mph.
The whole thing struck me as utterly bonkers advice, especially the idea of people driving for miles in a 30mph in third (which might be sound for a fast high geared car, but surely not a 'shopping trolley' Ford Ka or similar?) And the engaging Sport Mode to get a lower gear on an auto.?
Or is his advice sound do you think?
I had one guy on my course, when told to drop a gear and use more rpm say 'well that's not very eco friendly', to be in the same room as these bell wringers completely did my head in. It was interesting, to a point regarding stopping distances, but the most obvious thing to come of it was just how stupid the average motorist is. This is what actually slows me down, knowing I have to drive amongst these utter zombies, with no clue that certain vehicles have speed restrictions, no idea what the NSL is or what various traffic signs mean! Ultimately, I am deemed as much as a risk as them, causing alomost certain death in a sub-continent somewhere as I dispatch the local
The whole thing is just a huge money making scheme, and f
k all to do with anybodies safety, apart from the Polices and other institutions financial safetyobviouslyhttps://www.abd.org.uk/where-all-the-money-from-sp...
lets face it most of us break the speed limit knowingly. If you actually can't keep a vehicle at the speed limit either you or the vehicle shouldn't be on the road. Personally i think speed limits are for those that can't drive safely. We should all be graded and have different limits to adhere to. i know policing it would be difficult lol, but we could have letters or numbers displayed on our cars like L plates to show our grade. Not only drivers but vehicles have speeds which suits them best. I say all this as someone that does between 7 and 12k per month. i feel that its actually unsafe to sit at 70mph for 300 mile as its difficult to waken yourself up if a situation arises.
madmax273 said:
lets face it most of us break the speed limit knowingly. If you actually can't keep a vehicle at the speed limit either you or the vehicle shouldn't be on the road. Personally i think speed limits are for those that can't drive safely. We should all be graded and have different limits to adhere to. i know policing it would be difficult lol, but we could have letters or numbers displayed on our cars like L plates to show our grade. Not only drivers but vehicles have speeds which suits them best. I say all this as someone that does between 7 and 12k per month. i feel that its actually unsafe to sit at 70mph for 300 mile as its difficult to waken yourself up if a situation arises.
12k per month??That works out at 2770 miles per week (assuming (12000*12)/52) or 461 miles per day (assuming a six day week).
At 70mph average (which arguably is unachievable for any length of time in the UK) that's driving for 6.59 hours per day.
If you have a five day week, that's 7.91 hours per day driving.
Both of those figures exclude any rest breaks.
If you're doing it at 56mph average, it works out as 8.21 hours per day per six day week / 9.89 hours per day per five day week, also excluding any sort of rest breaks.
Are you an international truck driver??
madmax273 said:
lets face it most of us break the speed limit knowingly. If you actually can't keep a vehicle at the speed limit either you or the vehicle shouldn't be on the road. Personally i think speed limits are for those that can't drive safely. We should all be graded and have different limits to adhere to. i know policing it would be difficult lol, but we could have letters or numbers displayed on our cars like L plates to show our grade. Not only drivers but vehicles have speeds which suits them best. I say all this as someone that does between 7 and 12k per month. i feel that its actually unsafe to sit at 70mph for 300 mile as its difficult to waken yourself up if a situation arises.
Motorways are a different ball game, but all vehicles have a right to the roads. Bicycles, tractors, abnormal loads... The bicycle case even has no speed limit, and I'm more than happy to defer to "assured clear distance ahead". Which sometimes is significantly more than what I can physically do, sometimes it isn't.Ari said:
Oh, and he doesn't like cruise controls 'because of aquaplaning' (I can only guess he's referring to the urban myth that occasionally does the Facebook rounds about the copper who apparently tells a woman who crashed that it's because she was on cruise control, when the car aquaplaned the cruise control made it suddenly accelerate, causing her to crash).
Oh and the final gem was him saying that the record for speeding in his county was a Porsche clocked at 155mph. But it was limited to that and no car will ever go faster because they are all limited to 155mph.
I've seen that cruise control/aquaplaning myth a few times on FB. I'd assumed it was because you would aquaplane if you are not going to lift off and just leave it on. But hadn't thought of the 'accelerate' supposition as in it will apply the throttle attempting to maintain the set speed and spin the wheels, so lose what traction, grip, you may still have. Hmmm, I wonder.Oh and the final gem was him saying that the record for speeding in his county was a Porsche clocked at 155mph. But it was limited to that and no car will ever go faster because they are all limited to 155mph.
madmax273 said:
lets face it most of us break the speed limit knowingly. If you actually can't keep a vehicle at the speed limit either you or the vehicle shouldn't be on the road. Personally i think speed limits are for those that can't drive safely. We should all be graded and have different limits to adhere to. i know policing it would be difficult lol, but we could have letters or numbers displayed on our cars like L plates to show our grade. Not only drivers but vehicles have speeds which suits them best. I say all this as someone that does between 7 and 12k per month. i feel that its actually unsafe to sit at 70mph for 300 mile as its difficult to waken yourself up if a situation arises.
OK, right off the bat, how many different grades are you proposing?With drivers of differing grades who may be validly entitled to drive the same vehicle, how do you envisage that display working in practice?
What about if someone of a lower or higher grade than the previous driver were to forget to change the identifier? Would that involve a sanction?
How would a camera know the grade of the person behind the wheel? It would not be merely difficult to police, it would be totally impractical.
You haven't thought it through I'm afraid. It's pie-in-the-sky. A total non-starter.
Red Devil said:
madmax273 said:
lets face it most of us break the speed limit knowingly. If you actually can't keep a vehicle at the speed limit either you or the vehicle shouldn't be on the road. Personally i think speed limits are for those that can't drive safely. We should all be graded and have different limits to adhere to. i know policing it would be difficult lol, but we could have letters or numbers displayed on our cars like L plates to show our grade. Not only drivers but vehicles have speeds which suits them best. I say all this as someone that does between 7 and 12k per month. i feel that its actually unsafe to sit at 70mph for 300 mile as its difficult to waken yourself up if a situation arises.
OK, right off the bat, how many different grades are you proposing?With drivers of differing grades who may be validly entitled to drive the same vehicle, how do you envisage that display working in practice?
What about if someone of a lower or higher grade than the previous driver were to forget to change the identifier? Would that involve a sanction?
How would a camera know the grade of the person behind the wheel? It would not be merely difficult to police, it would be totally impractical.
You haven'thought it through I'm afraid. It's pie-in-the-sky. A total non-starter.
I don't see it would solve anything though. Stopping distances aren't going to vary much according to driver.
Red Devil said:
madmax273 said:
lets face it most of us break the speed limit knowingly. If you actually can't keep a vehicle at the speed limit either you or the vehicle shouldn't be on the road. Personally i think speed limits are for those that can't drive safely. We should all be graded and have different limits to adhere to. i know policing it would be difficult lol, but we could have letters or numbers displayed on our cars like L plates to show our grade. Not only drivers but vehicles have speeds which suits them best. I say all this as someone that does between 7 and 12k per month. i feel that its actually unsafe to sit at 70mph for 300 mile as its difficult to waken yourself up if a situation arises.
OK, right off the bat, how many different grades are you proposing?With drivers of differing grades who may be validly entitled to drive the same vehicle, how do you envisage that display working in practice?
What about if someone of a lower or higher grade than the previous driver were to forget to change the identifier? Would that involve a sanction?
How would a camera know the grade of the person behind the wheel? It would not be merely difficult to police, it would be totally impractical.
You haven't thought it through I'm afraid. It's pie-in-the-sky. A total non-starter.
The problem is that we're all great drivers, a licence proves nothing, we've been driving for 99 years without a single accident, and not at all due to the fact that some of us would need to work quite hard to pass a driving test nowadays.
Dr Jekyll said:
It's clearly not totally impractical because NI has a different speed limit for new drivers.
The R plate is simply a time limited (one year) extension of the L plate. After which the 'grown up' limits apply.That a quite different scenario from the one the previous poster was suggesting.
I don't live in NI, so I have no idea how the Restricted category works in practice.
How do you tell whether someone is pulling a fast one other than by a spot check by an officer?
AFAIK both the IAM and RoADAR are charitable organisations which rely on unpaid volunteers giving of their time.
For the previous poster's idea to even get off the ground would mean it coming ithin the ambit of the DVSA.
The 'advanced' grade/s would require state sanction and the formal bureaucratic structure that goes with it.
There is no appetite in government to find the resources and funding which would be required. It ain't going to fly.
The issue with speed limits is that they have become politicised and thus are too often set by pandering to noisy lobby groups rather than by objective standards.
I am always distrustful of those who quote the results of opinion polls/surveys.
It depends on the agenda of the commissioning party and the questions asked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjh13hxehl4
Red Devil said:
The R plate is simply a time limited (one year) extension of the L plate. After which the 'grown up' limits apply.
That a quite different scenario from the one the previous poster was suggesting.
I don't live in NI, so I have no idea how the Restricted category works in practice.
How do you tell whether someone is pulling a fast one other than by a spot check by an officer?
AFAIK both the IAM and RoADAR are charitable organisations which rely on unpaid volunteers giving of their time.
For the previous poster's idea to even get off the ground would mean it coming ithin the ambit of the DVSA.
The 'advanced' grade/s would require state sanction and the formal bureaucratic structure that goes with it.
There is no appetite in government to find the resources and funding which would be required. It ain't going to fly.
They have corporate arms that deliver training commercially as well. Their testing standards are already overseen by the DVSA so no real issue there. However they don't have anywhere near the capacity and scaling up would be huge undertaking, it just won't happen. I have no idea how it could apply to international licence holders and visitors. Based on the fleet schemes, some kind of compulsory advanced training and testing would save far more lives than speed limits etc ever could, but there is no appetite or capacity for it. That a quite different scenario from the one the previous poster was suggesting.
I don't live in NI, so I have no idea how the Restricted category works in practice.
How do you tell whether someone is pulling a fast one other than by a spot check by an officer?
AFAIK both the IAM and RoADAR are charitable organisations which rely on unpaid volunteers giving of their time.
For the previous poster's idea to even get off the ground would mean it coming ithin the ambit of the DVSA.
The 'advanced' grade/s would require state sanction and the formal bureaucratic structure that goes with it.
There is no appetite in government to find the resources and funding which would be required. It ain't going to fly.
Graveworm said:
Based on the fleet schemes, some kind of compulsory advanced training and testing would save far more lives than speed limits etc ever could, but there is no appetite or capacity for it.
Culturally we would rather set restrictions which cater for the lowest common denominator - sad but inevitable 
I did a Driver Awareness Course yesterday and the advice about 2nd for 20, 3rd for 30 was also given, but it was the same advice i was given when i learned to drive, so I'm really not sure what the issue is.
As an aside, the thing that concerned me was how most of the course participants had no clue about speed limits. They showed us pictures of five road scenarios at the very start of the course and asked what we thought the limits were - I was the only one in a room of 24 people who got all five correct.
Most disturbing of all was that picture number 5 was of a motorway - everyone recognised it straightaway as a motorway but only 16 out of 25 knew the limit was 70mph! Two older ladies both thought it was 40mph which, to be fair, does explain a few things...
As an aside, the thing that concerned me was how most of the course participants had no clue about speed limits. They showed us pictures of five road scenarios at the very start of the course and asked what we thought the limits were - I was the only one in a room of 24 people who got all five correct.
Most disturbing of all was that picture number 5 was of a motorway - everyone recognised it straightaway as a motorway but only 16 out of 25 knew the limit was 70mph! Two older ladies both thought it was 40mph which, to be fair, does explain a few things...
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