Driver Awareness Course - bizarre advice?
Discussion
janesmith1950 said:
ABS- I thought the primary benefit was to enable you to steer whilst braking (as in mechanised cadence braking). In a straight line I'd imagine it's better than just locking up but it's probably not too difficult to get near/match manually if you have some sensitivity.
I think in practice it's much more 'difficult' than you think.The majority of drivers never practice 'emergency' braking, so they have no skills at all in this area, how would they?
If you look at a group of club racers and compare their braking distances for corners, you will find quite a degree of variability. And these are people who are enthusiastic about braking in the shortest distance and maintaining control. Also they practice this quite a few times lap after lap after lap for the conditions and various grip surfaces on each lap.
So for your man in the street (well in a car of course) with ABS they can just simply hit the pedal as hard as they can and get maximum braking and retain steering control. A far superior strategy.
Bert
The other issue that's obvious to anyone who has used multi channel ABS, either in test or real situations, where grip is variable and slightly compromised, is just how much the vehicle can squirm around as each wheel's system tries to find the optimum point for retardation combined with stability. I challenge anyone with a manual setup to match that. That's on what appears to be a relatively smooth uninterrupted tarmac surface, now add in bumps, lumps, white paint, the odd manhole cover etc.
Edited due to fat fingers
Edited due to fat fingers
Edited by FiF on Wednesday 7th August 17:40
djc206 said:
otolith said:
Does nobody actually monitor what is being told to people in these things and pull up the bulls
tters? I suppose so long as something appears to be being done and the cash keeps flowing, that's fine.
They’d make more money just fining you and giving you points so I don’t think it’s about that. It’s about giving people who’ve been a bit daft an opportunity to avoid points (stops people claiming there’s a war on motorists) and for a lot of people give them a well needed refresher of what the NSL on various road types is. tters? I suppose so long as something appears to be being done and the cash keeps flowing, that's fine.https://www.abd.org.uk/where-all-the-money-from-sp...
otolith said:
Income from speeding fines goes to the treasury. Profit from speed awareness courses does not. This was not always so. Oddly, speed awareness courses only appeared after the end of the netting off scheme which previously sent speeding fines instead to safety camera partnerships.
https://www.abd.org.uk/where-all-the-money-from-sp...
So the government would be better off stopping them and just fining us instead as that money goes to the treasury right?https://www.abd.org.uk/where-all-the-money-from-sp...
By some minor miracle I’ve never been caught speeding but if I do get caught I think I might just take the points after reading how walty these courses are.
Dr Jekyll said:
Depending on the car third gear in a 30 isn't unreasonable. Driving for any distance at a steady 30 you might be better in 4th but if you keep having to slow down a bit as is common in 30s 3rd can make more sense. At least in 3rd you can slow down and then speed up again with a better throttle response and without having to change gear. Some people never seem to have their hand off the gear lever in 30 limits because they keep grabbing 4th at every opportunity.
Depends on the car and box but mine 4 in around 1800rmp at 30 so it's perfectly happy thereJust got back from a speed awareness course and they also talked about 3rd gear in a 30 with similar justification to the OP's course - to avoid "speed creep" - largely because of the extra noise. I was less convinced by his argument that it's more economical too based on the odd belief that you'll be on-and-off the throttle in 3rd and when you're off the fuel-flow shuts off - I'd say this is less likely as the engine braking means you're more likely to be on part throttle all of the time than you would be in a higher gear. For autos he recommend locking in a low gear rather than the OP's instructor's "put it in sport mode". No comments about ABS, but he did talk about no-cruise-control-in-the-rain due to aquaplaning.
One interesting thing on one of the videos was talking about the difference in impact speed by going faster versus the increase in stopping distance. e.g. if somebody says "it'll take 10 metres longer to stop" you might translate that to 2 car lengths (although many people wouldn't). However, saying that you'd still be doing 39 mph at the point where you'd have come to rest if doing the speed limit carries a bit more impact (pun fully intended).
Overall it passed reasonably quickly, especially the pub quiz element of being able to shout out the answers
And far preferable to 3 points.
One interesting thing on one of the videos was talking about the difference in impact speed by going faster versus the increase in stopping distance. e.g. if somebody says "it'll take 10 metres longer to stop" you might translate that to 2 car lengths (although many people wouldn't). However, saying that you'd still be doing 39 mph at the point where you'd have come to rest if doing the speed limit carries a bit more impact (pun fully intended).
Overall it passed reasonably quickly, especially the pub quiz element of being able to shout out the answers
And far preferable to 3 points.
There was one very interesting fact to come out of the course for me (assuming it's actually true of course. One hopes that, whilst they might not know much about cars, the safety advice is at least well researched).
Paint a line on an empty motorway. Drive at 70mph, hit the brakes as you cross the line as hard as you can till you stop.
Then get an identical car in the next lane doing 100mph, same thing, hit the brakes as hard as poss once it crosses the line.
The second car still be doing just over 70mph as it passes the stationary car that braked from 70mph!
That's pretty sobering!
Paint a line on an empty motorway. Drive at 70mph, hit the brakes as you cross the line as hard as you can till you stop.
Then get an identical car in the next lane doing 100mph, same thing, hit the brakes as hard as poss once it crosses the line.
The second car still be doing just over 70mph as it passes the stationary car that braked from 70mph!
That's pretty sobering!
janesmith1950 said:
bigdog3 said:
janesmith1950 said:
ABS- I thought the primary benefit was to enable you to steer whilst braking (as in mechanised cadence braking). In a straight line I'd imagine it's better than just locking up but it's probably not too difficult to get near/match manually if you have some sensitivity.
You're missing a key point as expressed by poppopbangbang. ABS allows independent control of braking force for each wheel. To achieve the same braking performance with a manual brake system, you would need four brake pedals with four legs. Unless you've got four legs (and enormous skill) modern ABS systems are technically and practically superior
poppopbangbang said:
Modern ABS systems operate at such a high valve frequency and wheel speed sampling rate that they can maintain that "ideal" braking point of "just before lockup" consistently across all wheels speeds, weight transfers and road conditions on all four wheels. To match them you'd need four feet, four brake pedals and humming bird rapid legs.
djc206 said:
otolith said:
Income from speeding fines goes to the treasury. Profit from speed awareness courses does not. This was not always so. Oddly, speed awareness courses only appeared after the end of the netting off scheme which previously sent speeding fines instead to safety camera partnerships.
https://www.abd.org.uk/where-all-the-money-from-sp...
So the government would be better off stopping them and just fining us instead as that money goes to the treasury right?https://www.abd.org.uk/where-all-the-money-from-sp...
By some minor miracle I’ve never been caught speeding but if I do get caught I think I might just take the points after reading how walty these courses are.
I would have to think about it.
FiF said:
The other issue that's obvious to anyone who has used multi channel ABS, either in test or real situations, where grip is variable and slightly compromised, is just how much the vehicle can squirm around as each wheel's system tries to find the optimum point for retardation combined with stability. I challenge anyone with a manual setup to match that. That's on what appears to be a relatively smooth uninterrupted tarmac surface, now add in bumps, lumps, white paint, the odd manhole cover etc.
One ABS evaluation test used by manufacturers is split-mu braking. Two wheels on one side of the car run on a low-mu slippery surface whereas the other two wheels run on a high-mu high grip surface.A manually braked car will lock the low-mu wheels at the effective braking limit. By comparison, the multi-channel ABS car will make use of the extra braking force from the high-mu wheels, hence reducing stopping distance. No amount of driving skill will overcome this fundamental technical advantage.
poppopbangbang said:
Modern ABS systems operate at such a high valve frequency and wheel speed sampling rate that they can maintain that "ideal" braking point of "just before lockup" consistently across all wheels speeds, weight transfers and road conditions on all four wheels. To match them you'd need four feet, four brake pedals and humming bird rapid legs.
Ah thanks for the explanation, I suspected it would be something to do with the individual wheel control. Problem is when you get told something by someone fairly knowledgeable (racing driver) you don't think about it too much until you hear differently!Ari said:
I see that the Mods have sent the thread into 'Advanced Driving' to die for some unknown reason.
Ah yes, that's why I don't bother contributing to Pistonheads so much these days.
Great move, Mods.
I posted something that ticked Speed, Plod and Law - just like yours - and it also got moved. Maybe be the mods are really bots? Ah yes, that's why I don't bother contributing to Pistonheads so much these days.
Great move, Mods.
[
Ari said:
I see that the Mods have sent the thread into 'Advanced Driving' to die for some unknown reason.
Ah yes, that's why I don't bother contributing to Pistonheads so much these days.
Great move, Mods.
Perhaps it's not politically correct to criticise Speed Awareness Courses, so the topic has been banished to a dark place? Would be consistent with dropping Speed Matters from PistonHeads...Ah yes, that's why I don't bother contributing to Pistonheads so much these days.
Great move, Mods.
poppopbangbang said:
I had an experience several years ago where a similar sort of chap told the room with a straight face that "a professional driver can always stop quicker without ABS but it makes you lot safer because you aren't that skilled". I questioned this based on my experience of calibrating Bosch ABS systems for motosport and road car use along with, at the time, being a paid test driver which eventually resulted in being told to be quite or I would be marked as having not attended.
The only thing more terrifying than the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability members of the public have is the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability those who are supposed to improve the general publics motoring ability have.
I know the type, I bet he is an armchair expert on the implications of trading "on WTO terms" too.The only thing more terrifying than the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability members of the public have is the lack of general automotive knowledge and ability those who are supposed to improve the general publics motoring ability have.
ElectricPics said:
Do people really have so much difficulty sticking to speed limits that they need encouragement to start mucking around with gears and settings instead of just concentrating on actual driving? Seems to me to be defeating the object of the exercise.
The car has to be in some gear otherwise it won't move. Trying to select the appropriate gear is hardly 'mucking around'.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff