1500W E-Bike. You’re nicked.
Discussion
Pica-Pica said:
Now, this has got me interested in getting back on a bike. I have a full A licence, I may start looking for a fully legal bike to register, tax, licence and charge at home.
Hi Pica, I've looked but I'll stick with the ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) for now. Below are some additional considerations other than the more expensive e-motorcycles out there and some additional info to share. The Zeros are just too expensive for me.- Government grant eligibility: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/plug-in...
- Insurance: 40 something year old male living in Ringwood (BH24) area, 11 years no claims - only 1 insurer will insure me and for a few pence under £200 p.a. I can insure an old 750 (70ish bhp) sports bike for £85 p.a.
- http://supersoco.co.uk/ - various options with the TC Max as top model (58mph max, 60 mile range at constant 30mph) - £3999.
- Sur Ron - Looks like a sturdy bike (similar to Bultaco as shown in original post). Made heavier to fit into moped bracket. Road legal version comes with lights, etc. 50 mile range, 50mph max, 50kgs. Price is approx. £4300. A local supplier lent me one of these last week. It was great fun and would make a brilliant commuter for me. https://electrek.co/2018/08/09/electrek-review-sur...
RizzoTheRat said:
So where would you draw the line between an electric bicycle that can be ridden anywhere by anyone, and an electric motorbike that needs to have an mot and insurance?
In a world where none of these things apply to human powered vehicles, I’d probably do it on weight and top speed (measured on the flat - someone clever than me can turn it into watts). I’d probably say top speed on the flat could be 30 mph, which would make it slower than a lot of conventional bikes on the road today. I’d also argue that cyclists need insurance, but that will open up a whole different argument. I certainly had insurance when I rode seriously.
I guess where you are you only really get keen cyclists?
I commute by bike in an area with lots of cyclists (Den Haag) and usually cruise between 20 and 25 kph. At that speed I overtake a lot of cyclists and rarely get passed. At a rough guess I'd say well under 1% of cyclists I see are able to do 30mph (50 kph), and doing that kind of speed on cycle lanes where the average speed is probably 15-20kph would probably result in a fair few accidents.
Lots of people on ebikes around here and they tend to be older. The main benefit of them seems to be keeping people on bikes when they might struggle on a normal one, although if I move further from work I'm tempted to get one to allow me to cycle further on the way to work with working up a sweat.
I commute by bike in an area with lots of cyclists (Den Haag) and usually cruise between 20 and 25 kph. At that speed I overtake a lot of cyclists and rarely get passed. At a rough guess I'd say well under 1% of cyclists I see are able to do 30mph (50 kph), and doing that kind of speed on cycle lanes where the average speed is probably 15-20kph would probably result in a fair few accidents.
Lots of people on ebikes around here and they tend to be older. The main benefit of them seems to be keeping people on bikes when they might struggle on a normal one, although if I move further from work I'm tempted to get one to allow me to cycle further on the way to work with working up a sweat.
Gargamel said:
Red 4 said:
Pica-Pica said:
Now, this has got me interested in getting back on a bike. I have a full A licence, I may start looking for a fully legal bike to register, tax, licence and charge at home.
Why not just get a bike ?You'll get fitter without the electronic tomfoolery.
Unless the battery runs out midway through your ride and then you'll find out what a heavy PITA e-bikes can be.
A mate had one. It was a piece of ( expensive) junk and he still struggled to keep up.
I’m well into my electric MTB (legal) and I can assure you that it is still a bloody good work out and “can’t keep up” - don’t make me laugh.
You get all types in London. Commuters tooling along at a speed that makes you wonder how they stay upright - loads of them. You also get club riders who happen to commute to work. The Embankment heading west after the Houses of Parliament used to be a proper race track, I remember puking at the far end of it after a particularly hard session. You’d get a few people at the front of the lights who’d race anything - old buses were easy, and bendy buses were good sport and taxis were a proper challenge.
I did 3 months working in Amsterdam, and I remember thinking it was all very weird. They probably thought I was weird - the only bloke in Lycra on a set of deep section wheels and tri bars.
I did 3 months working in Amsterdam, and I remember thinking it was all very weird. They probably thought I was weird - the only bloke in Lycra on a set of deep section wheels and tri bars.
rxe said:
You get all types in London. Commuters tooling along at a speed that makes you wonder how they stay upright - loads of them. You also get club riders who happen to commute to work. The Embankment heading west after the Houses of Parliament used to be a proper race track, I remember puking at the far end of it after a particularly hard session. You’d get a few people at the front of the lights who’d race anything - old buses were easy, and bendy buses were good sport and taxis were a proper challenge.
I did 3 months working in Amsterdam, and I remember thinking it was all very weird. They probably thought I was weird - the only bloke in Lycra on a set of deep section wheels and tri bars.
Yeah, I've been into London a few times, once was by bike. Then again, I was only just hitting 20 mph after 100 kms! Can't say there was much sport to be had, most of my time was spent filtering past queues. Maybe the dual carriageway A4020 through Uxbridge... Tbh, my favourite trick is grabbing a tow from a lorry on the Oxford Ring Road (dual carriageway, I start this off from a signalised roundabout. Initially 40 mph limit, but soon becomes NSL). I then see for how long I can hold on (gauged by maximum speed). My current best is 48.3 mph I did 3 months working in Amsterdam, and I remember thinking it was all very weird. They probably thought I was weird - the only bloke in Lycra on a set of deep section wheels and tri bars.
rxe said:
Best tow I ever had was one of those huge crane things that was trundling along the A4 heading west for miles, Accelerated slowly from rest, and topped out at about 45. I remember being in completely still air about 10 feet behind it, with the scenery whizzing by....
Here's the segment: https://www.strava.com/segments/20800249 I attribute my blowing up before 50 mph to the acceleration required, but I suspect the road changing from -2% to +2% has a role to play too. I can imagine how nice those cranes are, shame that they don't go 60.Solocle said:
rxe said:
Best tow I ever had was one of those huge crane things that was trundling along the A4 heading west for miles, Accelerated slowly from rest, and topped out at about 45. I remember being in completely still air about 10 feet behind it, with the scenery whizzing by....
Here's the segment: https://www.strava.com/segments/20800249 I attribute my blowing up before 50 mph to the acceleration required, but I suspect the road changing from -2% to +2% has a role to play too. I can imagine how nice those cranes are, shame that they don't go 60.
The whole point of the bloke in the OP getting nicked was that he was disqualified from driving and cheating his way around the ban, thinking he was being clever. Not so much about the e-bike, more about police officers trying to make a ban stick. Great that he was caught and "done" for it, as drug (and drink) drivers are a menace and ought to be banned for far longer periods than they are currently. And that 'Vortecks' fella on Youtube? I'd like to see him caught and his youtube videos used in evidence against him too. Want to ride without putting an effort in? Buy a motorcycle. Want a bicycle? Buy a legal pedal-assist e-bike, or a plain, ordinary, unassisted bike, but either way put some effort into riding it. Twist'n'go e-bikes are good for no-one, as they'll just lead to a clampdown on all e-bikes in the end. That, and the fact that they're generally not built (nor braked) to cope with such speeds.
RizzoTheRat said:
rxe said:
I don’t see why conventional cycling at high speed is fine, but electric cycling is not fine.
So where would you draw the line between an electric bicycle that can be ridden anywhere by anyone, and an electric motorbike that needs to have an mot and insurance? - organise state-paid insurance for all electric and pedal-only bikes
- allow 1500w eBikes anywhere bicycles are currently allowed - the current rules only work where there are no appreciable hills
- allow Segways on roads and pavements
- legalise hoverboards, powered unicycles, etc.
If we're to survive Brexit (and even just survive the modern world), we've got as a country to stop being so damned backward and conservative, and instead embrace change and (dare I say it) risk a little more.
If people die on these things then so be it. We don't have a shortage of humans right now. It isn't wrong for life to involve some risk.
I'd also be happy with 14 year olds on 50cc scooters, would allow Velocettes on the road, and so on. There is absolutely no reason beyond the usual knee-jerk rubbish of the net-curtain-twitching brigade and the Daily Mail to prevent any of this.
Would some people behave badly? Probably, but our lack of allowing such things is a part of why people act out IMHO.
skwdenyer said:
If I were in charge, I would:
- allow 1500w eBikes anywhere bicycles are currently allowed - the current rules only work where there are no appreciable hills
Er.... do you have any idea how rapid a 1500w ebike would be?- allow 1500w eBikes anywhere bicycles are currently allowed - the current rules only work where there are no appreciable hills
An absolute world class athlete like Chris Froome could bung out about 800w and that much only for a few moments. For a normal race he can do about 400w for 30 - 40 minutes.
That's the best cyclist in the world in a race that he trains for to the exclusion of anything else.
A road legal pedal assisted ebike for the UK is 250W, max 15mph - obviously you can go as fast as any other bike downhill or on the flat (unless you've got a Bosch) - so maybe if I'm going up a steep rocky hill I, a relatively fit bloke, is going to have 400 - 500 watts at my disposal if I am putting out 150 - 250 myself.
So you are proposing allowing people to have 1500w ebikes in the mix with ordinary cyclists? That's about five times the output of a fittish person? Double a Chris Froome sprinting? You might want to reconsider that.
Personally as the owner of a pair of eBikes I thing the law as it stands is fine - I can pretty easily cycle up any hill without blowing out of my arse (unless I really want to hammer it up), 15mph is absolutely fine up hills and for urban and city riding.
Dog Star said:
Er.... do you have any idea how rapid a 1500w ebike would be?
An absolute world class athlete like Chris Froome could bung out about 800w and that much only for a few moments. For a normal race he can do about 400w for 30 - 40 minutes.
That's the best cyclist in the world in a race that he trains for to the exclusion of anything else.
A road legal pedal assisted ebike for the UK is 250W, max 15mph - obviously you can go as fast as any other bike downhill or on the flat (unless you've got a Bosch) - so maybe if I'm going up a steep rocky hill I, a relatively fit bloke, is going to have 400 - 500 watts at my disposal if I am putting out 150 - 250 myself.
So you are proposing allowing people to have 1500w ebikes in the mix with ordinary cyclists? That's about five times the output of a fittish person? Double a Chris Froome sprinting? You might want to reconsider that.
Personally as the owner of a pair of eBikes I thing the law as it stands is fine - I can pretty easily cycle up any hill without blowing out of my arse (unless I really want to hammer it up), 15mph is absolutely fine up hills and for urban and city riding.
Well, I believe Chris Hoy is able to hit 2500W. I can momentarily hit nigh on 1000W. Of course, Hoy sprints at close to 50 mph... I hit 35. The use for a 1500W motor is mostly limited to going up hills at a serious (but not stupid) lick. Then again, having that sort of motor might make mixing with traffic on busy roads far more pleasant... But I would say that a driving license should be required. Registration is more debatable.An absolute world class athlete like Chris Froome could bung out about 800w and that much only for a few moments. For a normal race he can do about 400w for 30 - 40 minutes.
That's the best cyclist in the world in a race that he trains for to the exclusion of anything else.
A road legal pedal assisted ebike for the UK is 250W, max 15mph - obviously you can go as fast as any other bike downhill or on the flat (unless you've got a Bosch) - so maybe if I'm going up a steep rocky hill I, a relatively fit bloke, is going to have 400 - 500 watts at my disposal if I am putting out 150 - 250 myself.
So you are proposing allowing people to have 1500w ebikes in the mix with ordinary cyclists? That's about five times the output of a fittish person? Double a Chris Froome sprinting? You might want to reconsider that.
Personally as the owner of a pair of eBikes I thing the law as it stands is fine - I can pretty easily cycle up any hill without blowing out of my arse (unless I really want to hammer it up), 15mph is absolutely fine up hills and for urban and city riding.
Solocle said:
Dog Star said:
Er.... do you have any idea how rapid a 1500w ebike would be?
An absolute world class athlete like Chris Froome could bung out about 800w and that much only for a few moments. For a normal race he can do about 400w for 30 - 40 minutes.
That's the best cyclist in the world in a race that he trains for to the exclusion of anything else.
A road legal pedal assisted ebike for the UK is 250W, max 15mph - obviously you can go as fast as any other bike downhill or on the flat (unless you've got a Bosch) - so maybe if I'm going up a steep rocky hill I, a relatively fit bloke, is going to have 400 - 500 watts at my disposal if I am putting out 150 - 250 myself.
So you are proposing allowing people to have 1500w ebikes in the mix with ordinary cyclists? That's about five times the output of a fittish person? Double a Chris Froome sprinting? You might want to reconsider that.
Personally as the owner of a pair of eBikes I thing the law as it stands is fine - I can pretty easily cycle up any hill without blowing out of my arse (unless I really want to hammer it up), 15mph is absolutely fine up hills and for urban and city riding.
Well, I believe Chris Hoy is able to hit 2500W. I can momentarily hit nigh on 1000W. Of course, Hoy sprints at close to 50 mph... I hit 35. The use for a 1500W motor is mostly limited to going up hills at a serious (but not stupid) lick. Then again, having that sort of motor might make mixing with traffic on busy roads far more pleasant... But I would say that a driving license should be required. Registration is more debatable.An absolute world class athlete like Chris Froome could bung out about 800w and that much only for a few moments. For a normal race he can do about 400w for 30 - 40 minutes.
That's the best cyclist in the world in a race that he trains for to the exclusion of anything else.
A road legal pedal assisted ebike for the UK is 250W, max 15mph - obviously you can go as fast as any other bike downhill or on the flat (unless you've got a Bosch) - so maybe if I'm going up a steep rocky hill I, a relatively fit bloke, is going to have 400 - 500 watts at my disposal if I am putting out 150 - 250 myself.
So you are proposing allowing people to have 1500w ebikes in the mix with ordinary cyclists? That's about five times the output of a fittish person? Double a Chris Froome sprinting? You might want to reconsider that.
Personally as the owner of a pair of eBikes I thing the law as it stands is fine - I can pretty easily cycle up any hill without blowing out of my arse (unless I really want to hammer it up), 15mph is absolutely fine up hills and for urban and city riding.
I spend part of my time in the Yorkshire Dales where 250w is basically useless as a way of getting people out and about.
We can’t keep making laws just for Londoners
More seriously, many other countries have no issue with more powerful eBikes; I’m struggling to see why we should not be one of them.
If you’re worried about speed, by all means speed limit then, but don’t hobble their ability to climb hills or transport obese people (or both).
Er I live in the Pennines and it’s nothing but hills, no less than the Dales. Proper MTB country. I am literally on something called the Mary Towneley loop (look it up).
250w is plenty - and that’s off-road. If you want more than that I’d say it’s not “pedal assist” - you’re mixing it with scooters and mopeds (see the 1500w post). If you want that then get a reg plate, insurance etc.
Start legalising high power stuff that is mixing it with peds and other cycles (not to mention mixing it with cars) and it’ll be carnage, not to mention all the council house a rotes running riot on them. Our cities are refreshingly free of escooters etc compared with places like Paris, and better for it.
250w is plenty - and that’s off-road. If you want more than that I’d say it’s not “pedal assist” - you’re mixing it with scooters and mopeds (see the 1500w post). If you want that then get a reg plate, insurance etc.
Start legalising high power stuff that is mixing it with peds and other cycles (not to mention mixing it with cars) and it’ll be carnage, not to mention all the council house a rotes running riot on them. Our cities are refreshingly free of escooters etc compared with places like Paris, and better for it.
skwdenyer said:
I’m fine with it, yes. YMMV.
I spend part of my time in the Yorkshire Dales where 250w is basically useless as a way of getting people out and about.
We can’t keep making laws just for Londoners
More seriously, many other countries have no issue with more powerful eBikes; I’m struggling to see why we should not be one of them.
If you’re worried about speed, by all means speed limit then, but don’t hobble their ability to climb hills or transport obese people (or both).
I averaged 290watts going out of Otley via Chevin road, that's nearly 1mile at 12% and the time was in top 20% of times on Strava. 250watts is plenty of boost, even in Yorkshire :-)I spend part of my time in the Yorkshire Dales where 250w is basically useless as a way of getting people out and about.
We can’t keep making laws just for Londoners
More seriously, many other countries have no issue with more powerful eBikes; I’m struggling to see why we should not be one of them.
If you’re worried about speed, by all means speed limit then, but don’t hobble their ability to climb hills or transport obese people (or both).
ukbabz said:
I averaged 290watts going out of Otley via Chevin road, that's nearly 1mile at 12% and the time was in top 20% of times on Strava. 250watts is plenty of boost, even in Yorkshire :-)
Good climb, even better descent. I got up it a couple of times on my old commuter bike (MTB with road tyres). Probably in the region of 170W!Dog Star said:
Er I live in the Pennines and it’s nothing but hills, no less than the Dales. Proper MTB country. I am literally on something called the Mary Towneley loop (look it up).
250w is plenty - and that’s off-road. If you want more than that I’d say it’s not “pedal assist” - you’re mixing it with scooters and mopeds (see the 1500w post). If you want that then get a reg plate, insurance etc.
Start legalising high power stuff that is mixing it with peds and other cycles (not to mention mixing it with cars) and it’ll be carnage, not to mention all the council house a rotes running riot on them. Our cities are refreshingly free of escooters etc compared with places like Paris, and better for it.
Same here. I'm in North Devon, which is not flat in the slightest. The 250W + my efforts was easily enough to chunter up some seriously steep hills at a decent speed. 250w is plenty - and that’s off-road. If you want more than that I’d say it’s not “pedal assist” - you’re mixing it with scooters and mopeds (see the 1500w post). If you want that then get a reg plate, insurance etc.
Start legalising high power stuff that is mixing it with peds and other cycles (not to mention mixing it with cars) and it’ll be carnage, not to mention all the council house a rotes running riot on them. Our cities are refreshingly free of escooters etc compared with places like Paris, and better for it.
I certainly wouldn't want to come across any inexperienced cyclists on 1500W machines with no idea of what they are doing
boyse7en said:
Dog Star said:
Er I live in the Pennines and it’s nothing but hills, no less than the Dales. Proper MTB country. I am literally on something called the Mary Towneley loop (look it up).
250w is plenty - and that’s off-road. If you want more than that I’d say it’s not “pedal assist” - you’re mixing it with scooters and mopeds (see the 1500w post). If you want that then get a reg plate, insurance etc.
Start legalising high power stuff that is mixing it with peds and other cycles (not to mention mixing it with cars) and it’ll be carnage, not to mention all the council house a rotes running riot on them. Our cities are refreshingly free of escooters etc compared with places like Paris, and better for it.
Same here. I'm in North Devon, which is not flat in the slightest. The 250W + my efforts was easily enough to chunter up some seriously steep hills at a decent speed. 250w is plenty - and that’s off-road. If you want more than that I’d say it’s not “pedal assist” - you’re mixing it with scooters and mopeds (see the 1500w post). If you want that then get a reg plate, insurance etc.
Start legalising high power stuff that is mixing it with peds and other cycles (not to mention mixing it with cars) and it’ll be carnage, not to mention all the council house a rotes running riot on them. Our cities are refreshingly free of escooters etc compared with places like Paris, and better for it.
I certainly wouldn't want to come across any inexperienced cyclists on 1500W machines with no idea of what they are doing
eBikes are getting people out and about because they can basically carry them around at a reasonable rate if they don’t want to / can’t pedal overly much. For those without capacity, they promote inclusivity and start to change habits (for some) that have led to that lack of ability.
In hilly country that no longer applies - your 250W unit won’t cruise up hills at 15 mph.
If you’re happy with the speed limit (I’m not, I see no need for it to be so low), then allow greater power so that the on-the-flat experience can be duplicated elsewhere.
Power= m*g*(sin A)*v
For 120kg of bike + rider and a 10 degree slope at 15 mph we need 1.37kw at 100% efficiency.
10 degrees is hardly a mountain
The Bosch motors are easily unlocked. I’d love to try one. I’ve been told they are good for 20-25mph and would hold up for 60-90mins without the assist restrictions. Obviously, that’s breaking the law, which is very bad indeed so don’t anyone do that.
They also log the current discharge. So when, not if the cells go down you’re on your own.
They also log the current discharge. So when, not if the cells go down you’re on your own.
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