Modifications - for insurance purposes.
Discussion
siremoon said:
I wish it were that simple. Maybe it's me but it always turns out to be anything but:
Insurer: Has it had any modifications?
Me: What constitutes a modification?
Insurer: Anything that is not in the manufacturer's standard specification
Me: What about factory fitted options?
Insurer: Er .. don't know. Better list them just in case
Me: Metallic paint, heated seats, adaptive suspension
Insurer: It's got modified suspension?
Me: No it's a factory fitted option
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover it if you've modified the suspension
Me: I haven't modified it. It's a factory fitted option. The vehicle was fitted with adaptive suspension when it was built
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover a vehicle with modified suspension
Me: It's not modified. It was built with it at the factory
Insurer: If it's not the standard suspension then we can't provide cover
Me: It's a factory fit... Never mind. Goodbye.
Slightly exaggerated to make the point but I've had numerous exchanges along those lines. Some insurers explicitly state that modifications do not include anything fitted at the factory during assembly however others (including one of the biggest in the country) do not. Then it appears to be pot luck as to whether the person you are dealing with understands that factory fitted options are common on new vehicles and don't constitute a modification for insurance purposes. I have no idea whether the insurers that don't explicitly exclude factory fitted options are being deliberately vague to give them more wriggle options or are still under the impression that all cars of a given model are identical when they come off the line. I suspect the former.
Exactly the point I was making. Factory fit options are indeed "as the car left the factory", but are also different from the "standard base specification". It seems no one actually is prepared to state catagorically if its "modified" or not.Insurer: Has it had any modifications?
Me: What constitutes a modification?
Insurer: Anything that is not in the manufacturer's standard specification
Me: What about factory fitted options?
Insurer: Er .. don't know. Better list them just in case
Me: Metallic paint, heated seats, adaptive suspension
Insurer: It's got modified suspension?
Me: No it's a factory fitted option
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover it if you've modified the suspension
Me: I haven't modified it. It's a factory fitted option. The vehicle was fitted with adaptive suspension when it was built
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover a vehicle with modified suspension
Me: It's not modified. It was built with it at the factory
Insurer: If it's not the standard suspension then we can't provide cover
Me: It's a factory fit... Never mind. Goodbye.
Slightly exaggerated to make the point but I've had numerous exchanges along those lines. Some insurers explicitly state that modifications do not include anything fitted at the factory during assembly however others (including one of the biggest in the country) do not. Then it appears to be pot luck as to whether the person you are dealing with understands that factory fitted options are common on new vehicles and don't constitute a modification for insurance purposes. I have no idea whether the insurers that don't explicitly exclude factory fitted options are being deliberately vague to give them more wriggle options or are still under the impression that all cars of a given model are identical when they come off the line. I suspect the former.
Some Guy said:
Exactly the point I was making. Factory fit options are indeed "as the car left the factory", but are also different from the "standard base specification". It seems no one actually is prepared to state catagorically if its "modified" or not.
From personal experience. My car was stolen a few years ago. It had £15000 worth of optional extras when new. I received a full payout within two weeks of the theft. I hadn’t declared any modifications at all. Lindun said:
Some Guy said:
Exactly the point I was making. Factory fit options are indeed "as the car left the factory", but are also different from the "standard base specification". It seems no one actually is prepared to state catagorically if its "modified" or not.
From personal experience. My car was stolen a few years ago. It had £15000 worth of optional extras when new. I received a full payout within two weeks of the theft. I hadn’t declared any modifications at all. Insurance companies are rarely going to be bothered about having to track down every last ordered option on each individual car they deal with.
"Modifications" are changes made to the vehicle, using either factory or after-market parts, that were never specified for that model of vehicle by the manufacturer.
4rephill said:
Lindun said:
Some Guy said:
Exactly the point I was making. Factory fit options are indeed "as the car left the factory", but are also different from the "standard base specification". It seems no one actually is prepared to state catagorically if its "modified" or not.
From personal experience. My car was stolen a few years ago. It had £15000 worth of optional extras when new. I received a full payout within two weeks of the theft. I hadn’t declared any modifications at all. Insurance companies are rarely going to be bothered about having to track down every last ordered option on each individual car they deal with.
"Modifications" are changes made to the vehicle, using either factory or after-market parts, that were never specified for that model of vehicle by the manufacturer.
Lindun said:
siremoon said:
I wish it were that simple. Maybe it's me but it always turns out to be anything but:
Insurer: Has it had any modifications?
Me: What constitutes a modification?
Insurer: Anything that is not in the manufacturer's standard specification
Me: What about factory fitted options?
Insurer: Er .. don't know. Better list them just in case
Me: Metallic paint, heated seats, adaptive suspension
Insurer: It's got modified suspension?
Me: No it's a factory fitted option
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover it if you've modified the suspension
Me: I haven't modified it. It's a factory fitted option. The vehicle was fitted with adaptive suspension when it was built
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover a vehicle with modified suspension
Me: It's not modified. It was built with it at the factory
Insurer: If it's not the standard suspension then we can't provide cover
Me: It's a factory fit... Never mind. Goodbye.
Slightly exaggerated to make the point but I've had numerous exchanges along those lines. Some insurers explicitly state that modifications do not include anything fitted at the factory during assembly however others (including one of the biggest in the country) do not. Then it appears to be pot luck as to whether the person you are dealing with understands that factory fitted options are common on new vehicles and don't constitute a modification for insurance purposes. I have no idea whether the insurers that don't explicitly exclude factory fitted options are being deliberately vague to give them more wriggle options or are still under the impression that all cars of a given model are identical when they come off the line. I suspect the former.
How about this for simpleInsurer: Has it had any modifications?
Me: What constitutes a modification?
Insurer: Anything that is not in the manufacturer's standard specification
Me: What about factory fitted options?
Insurer: Er .. don't know. Better list them just in case
Me: Metallic paint, heated seats, adaptive suspension
Insurer: It's got modified suspension?
Me: No it's a factory fitted option
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover it if you've modified the suspension
Me: I haven't modified it. It's a factory fitted option. The vehicle was fitted with adaptive suspension when it was built
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover a vehicle with modified suspension
Me: It's not modified. It was built with it at the factory
Insurer: If it's not the standard suspension then we can't provide cover
Me: It's a factory fit... Never mind. Goodbye.
Slightly exaggerated to make the point but I've had numerous exchanges along those lines. Some insurers explicitly state that modifications do not include anything fitted at the factory during assembly however others (including one of the biggest in the country) do not. Then it appears to be pot luck as to whether the person you are dealing with understands that factory fitted options are common on new vehicles and don't constitute a modification for insurance purposes. I have no idea whether the insurers that don't explicitly exclude factory fitted options are being deliberately vague to give them more wriggle options or are still under the impression that all cars of a given model are identical when they come off the line. I suspect the former.
You: I don’t agree with your point, so I’m going to make up a situation to prove my point. I’ll then admit I’ve made it up. How’s that for proving a point
Me: Eh?
I'm not in the habit of making things up and I did not make this up. I have simplified it a bit because the actual conversation was much longer. The company was Direct Line. It's not unreasonable for a customer to ask what constitutes a modification and it's not unreasonable to expect an agent of a major insurer to be able to provide a cogent answer. It would not be difficult for Direct Line to make it clear that factory fitted options do not constitute a modification and yet they do not either on their web site, in their documentation or when you speak to their agents. Instead I am supposed to assume that it's ok because people on the internet say so and as we know that's infallible and conflicts with the general advice to tell the insurer everything to be on the safe side. Damned if you do etc.
This is a grey area with some insurers and it should not be.
And as my contribution was so generously received by Mr know it all I won't bother again
Edited by siremoon on Thursday 22 August 08:25
Edited by siremoon on Thursday 22 August 08:26
siremoon said:
Lindun said:
siremoon said:
I wish it were that simple. Maybe it's me but it always turns out to be anything but:
Insurer: Has it had any modifications?
Me: What constitutes a modification?
Insurer: Anything that is not in the manufacturer's standard specification
Me: What about factory fitted options?
Insurer: Er .. don't know. Better list them just in case
Me: Metallic paint, heated seats, adaptive suspension
Insurer: It's got modified suspension?
Me: No it's a factory fitted option
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover it if you've modified the suspension
Me: I haven't modified it. It's a factory fitted option. The vehicle was fitted with adaptive suspension when it was built
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover a vehicle with modified suspension
Me: It's not modified. It was built with it at the factory
Insurer: If it's not the standard suspension then we can't provide cover
Me: It's a factory fit... Never mind. Goodbye.
Slightly exaggerated to make the point but I've had numerous exchanges along those lines. Some insurers explicitly state that modifications do not include anything fitted at the factory during assembly however others (including one of the biggest in the country) do not. Then it appears to be pot luck as to whether the person you are dealing with understands that factory fitted options are common on new vehicles and don't constitute a modification for insurance purposes. I have no idea whether the insurers that don't explicitly exclude factory fitted options are being deliberately vague to give them more wriggle options or are still under the impression that all cars of a given model are identical when they come off the line. I suspect the former.
How about this for simpleInsurer: Has it had any modifications?
Me: What constitutes a modification?
Insurer: Anything that is not in the manufacturer's standard specification
Me: What about factory fitted options?
Insurer: Er .. don't know. Better list them just in case
Me: Metallic paint, heated seats, adaptive suspension
Insurer: It's got modified suspension?
Me: No it's a factory fitted option
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover it if you've modified the suspension
Me: I haven't modified it. It's a factory fitted option. The vehicle was fitted with adaptive suspension when it was built
Insurer: Sorry we can't cover a vehicle with modified suspension
Me: It's not modified. It was built with it at the factory
Insurer: If it's not the standard suspension then we can't provide cover
Me: It's a factory fit... Never mind. Goodbye.
Slightly exaggerated to make the point but I've had numerous exchanges along those lines. Some insurers explicitly state that modifications do not include anything fitted at the factory during assembly however others (including one of the biggest in the country) do not. Then it appears to be pot luck as to whether the person you are dealing with understands that factory fitted options are common on new vehicles and don't constitute a modification for insurance purposes. I have no idea whether the insurers that don't explicitly exclude factory fitted options are being deliberately vague to give them more wriggle options or are still under the impression that all cars of a given model are identical when they come off the line. I suspect the former.
You: I don’t agree with your point, so I’m going to make up a situation to prove my point. I’ll then admit I’ve made it up. How’s that for proving a point
Me: Eh?
I'm not in the habit of making things up and I did not make this up. I have simplified it a bit because the actual conversation was much longer. The company was Direct Line. It's not unreasonable for a customer to ask what constitutes a modification and it's not unreasonable to expect an agent of a major insurer to be able to provide a cogent answer. It would not be difficult for Direct Line to make it clear that factory fitted options do not constitute a modification and yet they do not either on their web site, in their documentation or when you speak to their agents. Instead I am supposed to assume that it's ok because people on the internet say so and as we know that's infallible and conflicts with the general advice to tell the insurer everything to be on the safe side. Damned if you do etc.
This is a grey area with some insurers and it should not be.
And as my contribution was so generously received by Mr know it all I won't bother again
Edited by siremoon on Thursday 22 August 08:25
Edited by siremoon on Thursday 22 August 08:26
Factory fitted options is an odd one and a highly grey area which only in some cases on quote forms have I seen explained fully.
Admiral if memory serves do class it as a modification from standard specification. There is a few others like this.
That being said a number of insurers view modifications at the point was it fitted at the point it left the factory and first registration. The last bit being an interesting point as some options wont get fitted until they reach the dealer at PDI.
Additionally it is rather like one insurer who does not list incidents/claims for where there was no third party payout...and therefore refused to take them down against you. Insurer in question had their GI unit recently bought out entirely but is licensing their brand to the buyer...
On the face of it many insurers are the same but dig deeper and the cheaper ones tend to screw you more down the line in my experience. Not a hard and fast rule but seems the case.
Based on my dealings professionally then I wont go near a few either having seen their data structures (in my case Direct Line and hiscox are no from me!)
Admiral if memory serves do class it as a modification from standard specification. There is a few others like this.
That being said a number of insurers view modifications at the point was it fitted at the point it left the factory and first registration. The last bit being an interesting point as some options wont get fitted until they reach the dealer at PDI.
Additionally it is rather like one insurer who does not list incidents/claims for where there was no third party payout...and therefore refused to take them down against you. Insurer in question had their GI unit recently bought out entirely but is licensing their brand to the buyer...
On the face of it many insurers are the same but dig deeper and the cheaper ones tend to screw you more down the line in my experience. Not a hard and fast rule but seems the case.
Based on my dealings professionally then I wont go near a few either having seen their data structures (in my case Direct Line and hiscox are no from me!)
Edited by Ninja59 on Thursday 22 August 20:46
To the vast vast percentage of the drivers in the UK who aren't car geeks they're just gonna ring up and insure a car as a standard whatever it is, irrespective of how many options the purchaser ticked on the initial order sheet. Non OEM parts, modification yep that's fine. OEM parts that were a factory fit option on the same model from factory, still within the range of standard spec IMO, if they weren't an option on your model of car however (e.g. you decided to bung a dual exhaust from a 535d on a 518d) then no dice.
dasbimmerowner said:
To the vast vast percentage of the drivers in the UK who aren't car geeks they're just gonna ring up and insure a car as a standard whatever it is, irrespective of how many options the purchaser ticked on the initial order sheet. Non OEM parts, modification yep that's fine. OEM parts that were a factory fit option on the same model from factory, still within the range of standard spec IMO, if they weren't an option on your model of car however (e.g. you decided to bung a dual exhaust from a 535d on a 518d) then no dice.
What about if the previous owner had put a dual exhaust from a 535d on your 518d and, not being a car geek, you had no idea that wasn't standard? RTB said:
What about if the previous owner had put a dual exhaust from a 535d on your 518d and, not being a car geek, you had no idea that wasn't standard?
As us been said numerous times. Reasonableness. What would a reasonable person be reasonably expected to know? That’s it. So I’m the above case likely not to be an issue.
It's not easy for sure!
My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
Mr Tidy said:
It's not easy for sure!
My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
If you don't declare them, and your cup holders cause a serious accident, your insurer may deny the claim.My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
So said:
Mr Tidy said:
It's not easy for sure!
My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
If you don't declare them, and your cup holders cause a serious accident, your insurer may deny the claim.My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So said:
Mr Tidy said:
It's not easy for sure!
My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
If you don't declare them, and your cup holders cause a serious accident, your insurer may deny the claim.My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
So said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So said:
Mr Tidy said:
It's not easy for sure!
My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
If you don't declare them, and your cup holders cause a serious accident, your insurer may deny the claim.My current BMW Z4 Coupe has been retro-fitted with cruise control, cup-holders and rear parking sensors - but they were all options when the car was built. So are they modifications or not? I only know because I checked the OEM spec, but how many people do that?
I declared a custom cat-back exhaust, different Z4 wheels and a non-standard gear-knob to my current insurer and they were fine with all of those.
Seems a bit of a minefield on an older car though!
A Winner Is You said:
Problem with that is it's fine for the first owner, but years down the line the 8th registered keeper is unlikely to realise those dealer-fit wheels aren't standard spec. Unless like me you're sad enough to buy an original brochure for every car you own.
"All information is correct to the best of your knowledge" is what's asked in regards to modifications I believe.turbodicky said:
A Winner Is You said:
Problem with that is it's fine for the first owner, but years down the line the 8th registered keeper is unlikely to realise those dealer-fit wheels aren't standard spec. Unless like me you're sad enough to buy an original brochure for every car you own.
"All information is correct to the best of your knowledge" is what's asked in regards to modifications I believe.I daily drive a geriatric Ford Ranger with a number of modifications.
One is 400 litre water tank - which initially did take a bit of insuring but the company's happy now.
The other modifications are trim. It has Alloy Wheels that it wouldn't have left the factory within its particular spec but they are the alloys you would find on higher spec models of the same age. Likewise, the leather interior that I acquired from a higher spec Ranger.
All these mods are declared and the insurance company wasn't really bothered, apart from the tank, as long as I disclosed them.
One is 400 litre water tank - which initially did take a bit of insuring but the company's happy now.
The other modifications are trim. It has Alloy Wheels that it wouldn't have left the factory within its particular spec but they are the alloys you would find on higher spec models of the same age. Likewise, the leather interior that I acquired from a higher spec Ranger.
All these mods are declared and the insurance company wasn't really bothered, apart from the tank, as long as I disclosed them.
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