Discussion
...and R E E E E L A A A X...
So yes, the public often do get a poor service from the Police. They're kept waiting for days for a visit from an already overworked officer, who works shifts.
Sometimes, the officer doesn't get the message passed to them to cotact the victim from a previous incident. Sometimes they are simply just too busy responding to emergency incidents to make the call.
They are directly and personally criticised by the public, for matters that are simply out of their control. The individual officer has to try and manage their time effectively, but there is pressure on them to be both proactive and target offenders, and reactive and respond to incidents.
Response targets, crime reduction targets, budget reductions...
There is a huge amount of duplication and bureaucracy, and many PCs only have a high school education at best. Equipment is often outdated and ineffective, and budgets are overspent.
I think most people would be shocked if they knew how few police there were on the streets at any one time.
I suspect every public service - NHS, teaching etc etc is like this
So yes, the public often do get a poor service from the Police. They're kept waiting for days for a visit from an already overworked officer, who works shifts.
Sometimes, the officer doesn't get the message passed to them to cotact the victim from a previous incident. Sometimes they are simply just too busy responding to emergency incidents to make the call.
They are directly and personally criticised by the public, for matters that are simply out of their control. The individual officer has to try and manage their time effectively, but there is pressure on them to be both proactive and target offenders, and reactive and respond to incidents.
Response targets, crime reduction targets, budget reductions...
There is a huge amount of duplication and bureaucracy, and many PCs only have a high school education at best. Equipment is often outdated and ineffective, and budgets are overspent.
I think most people would be shocked if they knew how few police there were on the streets at any one time.
I suspect every public service - NHS, teaching etc etc is like this
OK, back on thread now!
Yes, there are failings in the Police service.
There ARE lazy, corrupt, bigoted Police officers. But they ARE in a very small minority. Most officers work very hard, for a not bad wage, but very little thanks elsewhere.
I think I already posted that in the 9 years I've been in the job (without a single day off sick - ever), I've been shouted and sworn at, spat at, pushed, slapped, bitten, punched, kicked, clubbed with various sundry household items, suffered needelstick injuries, had car batteries dropped out of tower blocks, stabbed, slashed (both those on the body armour), petrol bombed, had vehicles driven AT me, had a firearm pointed at me, as well as being doused with pretty much any fluid (bodily or otherwise) you care to think of.
Policing can be a very hard job. Many people are tempted to jack it in - some of those who had a trade before (plumber, chippy, sparks) often do.
For some of us, it's a bit of a quandary. I'm now at the point where my pension is worth quite a bit (and Busa, I pay 12.5% of my salary every month, as well as my own private provisions made elsewhere), so that holds me.
To be honest, I don't know what else I'd be good at. No real qualifications, other than a slacker's Grade D A Level geography, so where else am I going to earn £30k a year?
Mind you, I wouldn't want to be a teacher or an A&E nurse. They do have it tough.
Yes, there are failings in the Police service.
There ARE lazy, corrupt, bigoted Police officers. But they ARE in a very small minority. Most officers work very hard, for a not bad wage, but very little thanks elsewhere.
I think I already posted that in the 9 years I've been in the job (without a single day off sick - ever), I've been shouted and sworn at, spat at, pushed, slapped, bitten, punched, kicked, clubbed with various sundry household items, suffered needelstick injuries, had car batteries dropped out of tower blocks, stabbed, slashed (both those on the body armour), petrol bombed, had vehicles driven AT me, had a firearm pointed at me, as well as being doused with pretty much any fluid (bodily or otherwise) you care to think of.
Policing can be a very hard job. Many people are tempted to jack it in - some of those who had a trade before (plumber, chippy, sparks) often do.
For some of us, it's a bit of a quandary. I'm now at the point where my pension is worth quite a bit (and Busa, I pay 12.5% of my salary every month, as well as my own private provisions made elsewhere), so that holds me.
To be honest, I don't know what else I'd be good at. No real qualifications, other than a slacker's Grade D A Level geography, so where else am I going to earn £30k a year?
Mind you, I wouldn't want to be a teacher or an A&E nurse. They do have it tough.
Dibble said:
tonker
I didn't say I disagreed with the public's perception of crime and "lack" of Police action. I'd even agree that there are many otherwise law abiding members of the public who now see "the Police" as "the Enemy".
Ist mix of gatsos und so was, mein Liebster!
Dibble said:
I do take exception to the more personal insults on here; perhaps I shouldn't, because I don't think I've ever met a PHer while I've been at work, so the complaints can't be aimed at me directly, can they?
Ist difficult - we feel like we know each other even though we do not know faces. Ist because we type what we really think on here - to a point. Ist exchange of views really. Und I have always enjoyed reading your posts anyway - mein Liebster.
Dibble said:
I do accept that the public feel they get a very poor service from the Police, but a lot of the time, I don't think that complaint is fair. It's always the front-line, operational officers that get it in the neck. They have to put up with being moaned at by both ends - the public and the bosses.
Ist always the same - public want police to work for them - und middle managers have other ideas. Mad Doc has stand up und very real arguments mit hospital managers on regular basis - they interfere und ist not for the better
Dibble said:
You may have seen the news reports about the two young lads going in to the sea at Blackpool last weekend, and unfortunately drowning (although to date only one body has been recovered). That incident tied up a large majority of the officers in the busiest sector of the division for at least 36 hours – on a busy Bank Holiday weekend.
Ist tragic. I always think that the sea there ist awesome. It can sweep right over in storms. Ist unwise to go out in those conditions... und whilst I can appreciate wanting to save a pet dog...ist case of being aware of danger. Happens in Cumbria. We have idiot walkers who get lost up there und wear inadequate clothing.
Cannot understand the lack of common sense... Dibble said:
Now if you’ve been burgled out in the suburbs during those 36 hours, you, quite rightly, want a quick response from the Police.
Cous' had them on CCTV und made call whilst they were in her garden carrying off her prize jazzed up tractor
It ist Brunstromia ... und perhaps Dick had heard the legend of this lawn mower 
But nobody ever turned up. 
Dibble said:
But you went out shopping at 9am that morning, and it’s now 3pm. The burglar is long gone. The PC who is sent to you has a number of his or her own enquiries already. The team of 8 he or she works on is carrying (long term) two or three vacancies, which never seem to be filled. The PC has 12 months’ service in, and was tutored by a colleague who only has 2 years’ service.
Ist a bit like other professions
Blind leading the blind Dibble said:
snip
It sounds like too much silly form filling ist hampering here.
Dibble said:
Of course, because it’s the weekend, the photocopier the PC would usually use is out of toner, so the PC spends 10 minutes playing “hunt the working photocopier”.
Ist average in offices up und down the country
Dibble said:
Meanwhile, the phones in the control room are still ringing non stop, the jobs are stacking up on the dispatcher’s screens, and there are 6 PCs trying to do the work of 8. It’s getting busier.
Ist same in most offices up und down the country
Ist what the boss calls getting his "value for money" out of you und he cares not if you drop from sheer exhaustion
Dibble said:
Now there’s a serious two car accident, persons trapped…
…and a repeat domestic violence victim has called in; her partner’s broken her arm. Again…
…and a four year old child has gone missing on one of the local authority housing estates…
Still think the Police are doing “SOD ALL”…?
I said it before, Liebchen
- I want more Dibbles. Und people hired to do the paperwork for them - properly! >> Edited by WildCat on Friday 3rd June 15:46
Whatever you say Dibble, Gone etc, my opinion of the police is formed exclusively from my experience of them. There will be good and bad apples in any barrel and I'm sure you're both probably some of the good guys, I don't doubt that, but on the whole the police force doesn't deliver a service that I feel is remotely worthy of its tremendous cost.
Personally, I have never had good service from the police, I have had numerous cars broken into, house burgled, been assulted and subjected to fraud, in addition to various speeding 'incidents', one of which was entrapment. Even a serious head on car accident about 10 years ago which left the driver trapped in the car (I was passenger) doesn't change my view - the Ambulance staff were brillient and the Fire Service 1st class - really worth their weight in gold but the police stood around, all 6 or 7 of them doing sod all except costing a lot of money.
This thread started with somebody saying he'd not be willing to help the police anymore after a speeding incident - if he had had good service from the police in the first place then he may have accepted the speeding fine but on the whole, most people feel the police issue parking and speedng tickets and do very little else.
When my house is burgled I want a police officer to attend, SOCO to take fingerprints/look for evidence etc, etc, I don't want to be told that they are too busy with "more important things" when my family have been put at risk from a potentially drugged up scroat with a weapon. If that can't happen then there's something seriously wrong with the force.
Don't take this personally, it's obviously not a personal attack but given that almost everybody else agrees with the sentiment, it's not an uncommon view.
My first real interaction with the police was when I was at college, we worked with the local police taking local scroats sailing - supposed to be good for them. It was, they loved it - no idea if it helped the local crime rate but it at least gave them a chance to experience something they'd not have a chance to do. This was organised by the police and we (the club) often met with the police and even drank in the local police station bar with them - don't know if they still have bars in police stations but they did then.
Prior to this my view of the police was pretty neutral but having met them, been told by them what they do I quickly saw it wasn't all good. They took goods from lost property and recovered goods for themselves, they resold/used drugs they had confiscated, there was some funny business with stolen cars and they drove home after drinking far too much in their own bar.
Personally, I have never had good service from the police, I have had numerous cars broken into, house burgled, been assulted and subjected to fraud, in addition to various speeding 'incidents', one of which was entrapment. Even a serious head on car accident about 10 years ago which left the driver trapped in the car (I was passenger) doesn't change my view - the Ambulance staff were brillient and the Fire Service 1st class - really worth their weight in gold but the police stood around, all 6 or 7 of them doing sod all except costing a lot of money.
This thread started with somebody saying he'd not be willing to help the police anymore after a speeding incident - if he had had good service from the police in the first place then he may have accepted the speeding fine but on the whole, most people feel the police issue parking and speedng tickets and do very little else.
When my house is burgled I want a police officer to attend, SOCO to take fingerprints/look for evidence etc, etc, I don't want to be told that they are too busy with "more important things" when my family have been put at risk from a potentially drugged up scroat with a weapon. If that can't happen then there's something seriously wrong with the force.
Don't take this personally, it's obviously not a personal attack but given that almost everybody else agrees with the sentiment, it's not an uncommon view.
My first real interaction with the police was when I was at college, we worked with the local police taking local scroats sailing - supposed to be good for them. It was, they loved it - no idea if it helped the local crime rate but it at least gave them a chance to experience something they'd not have a chance to do. This was organised by the police and we (the club) often met with the police and even drank in the local police station bar with them - don't know if they still have bars in police stations but they did then.
Prior to this my view of the police was pretty neutral but having met them, been told by them what they do I quickly saw it wasn't all good. They took goods from lost property and recovered goods for themselves, they resold/used drugs they had confiscated, there was some funny business with stolen cars and they drove home after drinking far too much in their own bar.
deeps said:
Dibble, just wondered if you ever do over time in the form of operating a safety camera van? Or do any of your colleagues and do you agree with it?
I did do before they civilianised the posts.
I went to sites where I knew there was a speed related problem, and certainly used my discretion when I was in the van.
I do think there is a place for some speed enforcement, but not necessarily by GATSOs and the like, rather operated by a person.
busa_rush said:The top BiB in the Met refused a blanket expansion of GATSOs for this very reason. They were right, but it needs to go further and our BiB should lobby hard for the UK to follow Canada's example and ditch all forms of automated speed enforcement.
This thread started with somebody saying he'd not be willing to help the police anymore after a speeding incident - if he had had good service from the police in the first place then he may have accepted the speeding fine but on the whole, most people feel the police issue parking and speedng tickets and do very little else.
turbobloke said:
The top BiB in the Met refused a blanket expansion of GATSOs for this very reason. They were right, but it needs to go further and our BiB should lobby hard for the UK to follow Canada's example and ditch all forms of automated speed enforcement.
I thought we'd already had it.
They are quite willing to swallow the drivel that safespeed puts out though in relation to graphs and statistics Here's a stat for you Gone. Since GATSOs were introduced in the early nineties and then spread like a plague, the annual road fatality rate drop slowed down, stopped declining, then deaths started rising again. More people died on the roads in England in 2002 compared to 2001, though the UK saw a fall. Then in the UK in 2003, 3508 road deaths were recorded compared to 3431 in 2002. Take your smileys and your arrogant frippery to the homes of the 77 additional needless fatalities. So with 6000+ GATSOs and hundreds of scamvans plus mountains of bl00dy road humps there's now an upward trend again in road deaths. What fantastic insights into road safety the authorities have.
Of course, there are fewer broken fingernails, but with better and better car design out there as the older road stock gets gradually replaced year-on-year, together with air ambulances and better medical treatments emerging constantly - plus all the bull5h1t platitudes from the government and some BiB - by now we should have people rising from the dead and emerging from the tarmac, to be cocooned in marshmallow vehicles powered by gnats p1ss all travelling at 2mph. If people weren't dying needlessly because of utterly stupid road safety policy, it'd be funny.
Here is a public information message for those who believe that 'speed kills' enforced by GATSOs is a useful road safety policy....
Wake the f
k up
>> Edited by turbobloke on Friday 3rd June 18:02
Of course, there are fewer broken fingernails, but with better and better car design out there as the older road stock gets gradually replaced year-on-year, together with air ambulances and better medical treatments emerging constantly - plus all the bull5h1t platitudes from the government and some BiB - by now we should have people rising from the dead and emerging from the tarmac, to be cocooned in marshmallow vehicles powered by gnats p1ss all travelling at 2mph. If people weren't dying needlessly because of utterly stupid road safety policy, it'd be funny.
Here is a public information message for those who believe that 'speed kills' enforced by GATSOs is a useful road safety policy....
Wake the f
k up >> Edited by turbobloke on Friday 3rd June 18:02
Yet more stats.
Northants is one of the most speedophobic police forces. Here's a table of road deaths in Northants through the period of speed camera introduction and proliferation
1993 43
1994 36
1995 47
1996 41
1997 57
1998 60
1999 76
2000 58
2001 46
2002 62
2003 61
So the consistent drop in road fatalities attributable to GATSOs is clear there...only, it isn't. Cameras are making sod all difference, the fatacs go up and down in what's known as "statistical process control" regardless of bl00dy GATSOs and Scamvans.
In 2000 this county became one of the first scamera pratnerships allowed to keep money from speeding fines — and in round figures the number of tickets issued rose from 4,000 to 100,000 in the following 12 months. Obviously road safety was the motive. Not.
Northants is one of the most speedophobic police forces. Here's a table of road deaths in Northants through the period of speed camera introduction and proliferation
1993 43
1994 36
1995 47
1996 41
1997 57
1998 60
1999 76
2000 58
2001 46
2002 62
2003 61
So the consistent drop in road fatalities attributable to GATSOs is clear there...only, it isn't. Cameras are making sod all difference, the fatacs go up and down in what's known as "statistical process control" regardless of bl00dy GATSOs and Scamvans.
In 2000 this county became one of the first scamera pratnerships allowed to keep money from speeding fines — and in round figures the number of tickets issued rose from 4,000 to 100,000 in the following 12 months. Obviously road safety was the motive. Not.
Adom said:
I apologise in advance for the blatant ranting that will now follow, please avert your browser should you be allergic to angry whinging.
I am 95% certain I was Truvelo’d yesterday afternoon. Not in an unfamiliar area, but on the main road approx three quarters of a mile from my front door. Dual carriageway heading eastbound from Newcastle (Coast Road), in a 50 mph limit, a camera that I must drive past at least five times per week. Chatting to client sitting next to me, not really thinking about my speed but certainly not pressing on (client is not the sort to be upset by unruly driving), then as I pass the camera, suddenly realise I have forgotten about it, look down and see I am doing approx 65mph. Bugger!!
Ten seconds lapse in concentration is all it takes to get done by one of these little b**tards, all my good work (35k pa with lots in unfamiliar towns/cities), wiped out in an instant. I am naturally seething with myself for letting it happen, but the more I think about it, there is absolutely no reason for the limit in that section of road to be anything less than NSL, and certainly no ‘safety’ reason for this camera to be placed 250 metres before it changes to NSL!!!
This is not a safety issue. To my mind, the police can piss off. If they ever need anything from me they can whistle.
I now fully expect flaming from the resident coppers on here telling me that ‘I would expect them to help me though wouldn’t I’, and yes I totally agree, my response is pretty unreasonable, but to be honest, I am very angry and probably a little irrational at the moment, but positioning a camera where that one is and having such an inappropriate speed limit is also unreasonable.
65-70 mph in that area is perfectly safe, I was driving at a very moderate pace and that was the speed that felt appropriate in that area, so its not me that was driving too fast but the stupid arbitrary speed limit set too low by some useless t
Finally, I like coppers, one of my best mates is a copper, and on speaking to him, he says that this whole bloody obsession with speeding is complete shite, and will ultimately cause problems for the police when trying to do their job. The sooner the better for mine.
Now, I anticipate much criticism for this post, however I warn you that I will simply stand back, probably agree with you, and blame these (ill-judged) views, all on the enormous anger and sense of injustice I currently feel, much like people with hangovers blame alcohol after making complete tits of themselves the night before.......
all this and I don’t even know for sure whether I have been done yet……
Edited to tone down anger-induced swearing - apologies.
>> Edited by Adom on Thursday 2nd June 18:07
yes i know that truvelo very well live 5mins from there, EXACTLY the same happened to me travelling west towards the town, i pass that camera everyday at least 4 times this one time i was chatting to my mam and i was about 100 yards from it when i relised i was doing 60mph i slammed on the brakes got down to 50mph in about a million-th of a second that was a few days ago and im really worried about getting that NIP through the door id love to know what they are set to how much lee-way you have,the annoying thing is i pass it everyday since it was erected and always pass it well within the limit and all it takes after years of behaving is a split second of human error and BANG 3 points 60 quid its really not fair something should be done wonder if the conservitives would have made a difference? fingers crossed i missed the NIP and i hope you did too,i cant blame people for setting fire to cameras if i had the bottle id blow the coast road truvelos up!!
MMC said:
I think DVD has a point here - all the police guys I know hate cameras more than I do (and that is really, really going some).
The camera partnerships and the police are not the same. There may be some policemen in the partnerships (and some of them are decent guys - I've met a few), but they ain't the same as the scammers we see posting here on occasions and spinning, ducking, weaving, sliming and dodging in the media when faced with the nasty fact that their toys don't save lives.
Nooooo..... they are *perceived* as the same. Letters don't come with "Scamera Partnership" at the top, do they ?
SteA said:
You are making it up Havoc
Are you not just a little curious about the way the stats are sourced/prepared and presented?
Its interesting that the referrals to agencies that help support victims of crime dont reflect the stats as presented. And any police chiefs who speak out about growing crime seem to get canned/diciplined somewhat promptly....
I have very little expertise in this area so could be very wrong, but have consistently be dismayed how various statistics are misrepresented in a wide range of areas. More like marketing than accurate information.
Tell us about "Administrative Detections", gone, please.
WildCat said:
Anyway... police never bothered to turn up und her old lawn mower has never been recovered as yet. She bought another one - but was told she was not allowed to place an electrical current on her garden shed door.
This is a MAJOR problem with the Police. They seem to be able to turn out and commit enormous resources to getting people done on the word of chav scumbags.
Dibble said:
tonker
I didn't say I disagreed with the public's perception of crime and "lack" of Police action. I'd even agree that there are many otherwise law abiding members of the public who now see "the Police" as "the Enemy".
I do take exception to the more personal insults on here; perhaps I shouldn't, because I don't think I've ever met a PHer while I've been at work, so the complaints can't be aimed at me directly, can they?
They aren't aimed at you or gone either for that matter. They are aimed at the quality of the "Service" that you and he are perceived as being responsible for.
You are not, but many people will not understand, and those that do will still vent at you, largely because those genuinely responsible are untouchable.
Both you and gone have posted what you do, which I presume (hopefully correctly) is fairly typical.
However hard working and honest you guys are, the net result is that you are basically completely ineffectual. This is not your fault.
Dibble said:
I do accept that the public feel they get a very poor service from the Police, but a lot of the time, I don't think that complaint is fair. It's always the front-line, operational officers that get it in the neck. They have to put up with being moaned at by both ends - the public and the bosses.
Agree totally. However unfair this may seem to you, it is I'm afraid unavoidable.
Dibble said:
You may have seen the news reports about the two young lads going in to the sea at Blackpool last weekend, and unfortunately drowning (although to date only one body has been recovered). That incident tied up a large majority of the officers in the busiest sector of the division for at least 36 hours – on a busy Bank Holiday weekend.
Now if you’ve been burgled out in the suburbs during those 36 hours, you, quite rightly, want a quick response from the Police.
But you went out shopping at 9am that morning, and it’s now 3pm. The burglar is long gone. The PC who is sent to you has a number of his or her own enquiries already.
(snipped a large amount of interesting detail for brevity).
Still think the Police are doing “SOD ALL”…?
What people mean by "the Police are doing sod all" is not that you are doing nothing but that your efforts are ineffective.
If you broke rocks for your shift you would not be doing "sod all" but you would not contribute anything towards Crime solution and avoidance.
There are additional issues ; the first and most obvious is that the *only* time most of us see a Policeman is speed trapping. It seems that resources are available for this. You cannot therefore be surprised if people object to the Police not coming out for burglary, assault or whatever.
The second is the mindless use of PR ; the "improving crime statistics" (which are bollox), combined with the massive increases in money we pay for a service which achieves little or nothing.
Dibble said:
...and R E E E E L A A A X...
I think most people would be shocked if they knew how few police there were on the streets at any one time.
I suspect every public service - NHS, teaching etc etc is like this
You told us, and gone did as well, how many Policemen are out there. Basically, it's near as dammit none. I cannot see how either of you can possibly provide any sort of "Police Service" - all you can do is hit odd spots here and there.
Yes, it is as bad elsewhere. It's not only the public service, private companies spend eons of time doing stuff for Bliar's mindless uncontrollable quangos.
Out of interest, do you guys have the same problem we do, i.e. pressure from the managers to act on things which impinge on government targets (and through that, money) rather than things are actually any use - besides the obvious one of the utterly inane paperwork.
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