Grace Millane

[Durzel]

If he didn’t intend to kill her then he can’t surely be found guilty of murder?

CCTV appears to show them having a normal Tinder date, and she appears to have had proclivities towards BDSM.

Two drunk people partaking in BDSM, possibly for the first time, sounds like a recipe for disaster, but quite likely not murder.

Also what he did afterwards with her body is of course wrong and bad but also does not prove he murdered her.

Horrible case for everyone involved.

[Pica-Pica]

Durzel said:

If he didn’t intend to kill her then he can’t surely be found guilty of murder?

CCTV appears to show them having a normal Tinder date, and she appears to have had proclivities towards BDSM.

Two drunk people partaking in BDSM, possibly for the first time, sounds like a recipe for disaster, but quite likely not murder.

Also what he did afterwards with her body is of course wrong and bad but also does not prove he murdered her.

Horrible case for everyone involved.

Yes, the court may accept a manslaughter plea, but subsequent actions (probably chargeable in their own right as a separate offence) may not reduce any sentence by much, if anything.

[singlecoil]

If the court decides the matter on the basis of the new defence evidence then even a manslaughter verdict is not certain.

[Earthdweller]

Pica-Pica said:

Durzel said:

If he didn’t intend to kill her then he can’t surely be found guilty of murder?

CCTV appears to show them having a normal Tinder date, and she appears to have had proclivities towards BDSM.

Two drunk people partaking in BDSM, possibly for the first time, sounds like a recipe for disaster, but quite likely not murder.

Also what he did afterwards with her body is of course wrong and bad but also does not prove he murdered her.

Horrible case for everyone involved.

Yes, the court may accept a manslaughter plea, but subsequent actions (probably chargeable in their own right as a separate offence) may not reduce any sentence by much, if anything.

Concealing a death is ( in the UK) a common law offence punishable by upto life imprisonment/unlimited fine

But I doubt it’s much used and I have no idea about NZ

[BlackTails]

Burwood said:

lyonspride said:

Here's the funny thing, had the media shown us photos of this young lady in BDSM gear, brandishing a whip, instead of a smiley happy photo that her parents would be proud of....... And the killer in a photo of him smiling, looking all friendly, instead of a police mugshot, the speculation over this case would be entirely flipped upside down.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

He has form for it. He's already blamed the victim for having gone travelling in the first place and suggested that it was, as the accused claims, an accident gone wrong. The revelations about her sexual interests were always going to tip him over the top.

[JeremyBearimy]

This defence of "she likes it a bit kinky" seems to be getting used more and more. There was an awful case in the Uk, if memory serves me right the guy got away with it, even though the forensic evidence pointed to her being unconscious for most of the acts that happened to her.


Bottom line is, she didn't consent to death.

[BlackTails]

Durzel said:

If he didn’t intend to kill her then he can’t surely be found guilty of murder?

I don't believe that is the case in NZ.

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Law/Cr... (it's a wiki, so a noddy summary, but close enough).

[Barry Homo]

BlackTails said:

He has form for it. He's already blamed the victim for having gone travelling in the first place and suggested that it was, as the accused claims, an accident gone wrong. The revelations about her sexual interests were always going to tip him over the top.

Yeah. He's loopy.

[Burwood]

Durzel said:

If he didn’t intend to kill her then he can’t surely be found guilty of murder?

CCTV appears to show them having a normal Tinder date, and she appears to have had proclivities towards BDSM.

Two drunk people partaking in BDSM, possibly for the first time, sounds like a recipe for disaster, but quite likely not murder.

Also what he did afterwards with her body is of course wrong and bad but also does not prove he murdered her.

Horrible case for everyone involved.

Have a read of NZ law. Manslaughter is any culpable (blameworthy) homicide that is NOT Murder.
Murder is any of the following:




(a) if the offender means to cause the death of the person killed- No argument there

(b) if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not- Quite possibly got him on this

(c) if the offender means to cause death, or, being so reckless as aforesaid, means to cause such bodily injury as aforesaid to one person, and by accident or mistake kills another person, though he or she does not mean to hurt the person killed-not relevant

Edited by Burwood on Tuesday 19th November 14:16

[anonymous-user]

An interest in kinky sex is not a basis for assuming that a death was accidental or even consensual. Rubbishing the reputation of a dead person because of her adult sexual tastes is a cheesy strategy. It might pay off. It might not. Jury not yet out AFAIK.

[lyonspride]

BlackTails said:

Burwood said:

lyonspride said:

Here's the funny thing, had the media shown us photos of this young lady in BDSM gear, brandishing a whip, instead of a smiley happy photo that her parents would be proud of....... And the killer in a photo of him smiling, looking all friendly, instead of a police mugshot, the speculation over this case would be entirely flipped upside down.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

He has form for it. He's already blamed the victim for having gone travelling in the first place and suggested that it was, as the accused claims, an accident gone wrong. The revelations about her sexual interests were always going to tip him over the top.

Ah there you see you're wrong again, I didn't blame the victim, I blamed the society that raised that poor girl and fed crazy ideas into her head, to believe that she could go anywhere on her tod and do anything, and nothing bad will ever happen. Because THAT is f**king stupid, and ultimately this belief that other countries are as liberal as we are, is going to (and sometimes does) get people killed.

[anonymous-user]

NZ is waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more liberal than the UK. You are talking through your comfy old dude hat.

[BlackTails]

lyonspride said:

BlackTails said:

Burwood said:

lyonspride said:

Here's the funny thing, had the media shown us photos of this young lady in BDSM gear, brandishing a whip, instead of a smiley happy photo that her parents would be proud of....... And the killer in a photo of him smiling, looking all friendly, instead of a police mugshot, the speculation over this case would be entirely flipped upside down.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

He has form for it. He's already blamed the victim for having gone travelling in the first place and suggested that it was, as the accused claims, an accident gone wrong. The revelations about her sexual interests were always going to tip him over the top.

Ah there you see you're wrong again, I didn't blame the victim, I blamed the society that raised that poor girl and fed crazy ideas into her head, to believe that she could go anywhere on her tod and do anything, and nothing bad will ever happen. Because THAT is f**king stupid, and ultimately this belief that other countries are as liberal as we are, is going to (and sometimes does) get people killed.

That's as clear an example as anyone will find of blaming the victim for being gullible and naive. And you've drawn (at least) her parents into the ring of people who are to blame for her death. What a charming individual you must be.

Suggesting that New Zealand is a repressive danger zone for travellers is idiotic.

[lyonspride]

Breadvan72 said:

NZ is waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more liberal than the UK. You are talking through your comfy old dude hat.

We don't even know where the killer comes from......... Or do people suddenly turn into upstanding citizens of whatever country they visit?

[BlackTails]

lyonspride said:

We don't even know where the killer comes from.

Two minutes on google will tell you that he is an NZer.

[Durzel]

lyonspride said:

Ah there you see you're wrong again, I didn't blame the victim, I blamed the society that raised that poor girl and fed crazy ideas into her head, to believe that she could go anywhere on her tod and do anything, and nothing bad will ever happen. Because THAT is f**king stupid, and ultimately this belief that other countries are as liberal as we are, is going to (and sometimes does) get people killed.

Women are to some extent gambling with their lives every time they go out on a date with a male stranger. Men are physically much bigger, more likely to be violent or aggressive, etc.

I read an illuminating Twitter thread (I know) about what women would do if men didn’t exist, and it was mundane stuff like going for a run at night, not having to text their friends constantly to let them know they’re ok, etc, e.g stuff you just don’t even think about when you’re not someone who can be physically dominated by approx 50% of the population.

Anyway, your argument basically rules or women being able to use Tinder, or having much in the way of any agency or sexual desires etc, simply because interacting with that 50% of the population is a necessary part of that.

[Burwood]

lyonspride said:

Breadvan72 said:

NZ is waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more liberal than the UK. You are talking through your comfy old dude hat.

We don't even know where the killer comes from......... Or do people suddenly turn into upstanding citizens of whatever country they visit?

We? So your’ Rae a kiwi? Kia ora

[lyonspride]

Durzel said:

lyonspride said:

Ah there you see you're wrong again, I didn't blame the victim, I blamed the society that raised that poor girl and fed crazy ideas into her head, to believe that she could go anywhere on her tod and do anything, and nothing bad will ever happen. Because THAT is f**king stupid, and ultimately this belief that other countries are as liberal as we are, is going to (and sometimes does) get people killed.

Women are to some extent gambling with their lives every time they go out on a date with a male stranger. Men are physically much bigger, more likely to be violent or aggressive, etc.

I read an illuminating Twitter thread (I know) about what women would do if men didn’t exist, and it was mundane stuff like going for a run at night, not having to text their friends constantly to let them know they’re ok, etc, e.g stuff you just don’t even think about when you’re not someone who can be physically dominated by approx 50% of the population.

Anyway, your argument basically rules or women being able to use Tinder, or having much in the way of any agency or sexual desires etc, simply because interacting with that 50% of the population is a necessary part of that.

Nope, i'm saying that having a more realistic view of the world, and simply being more careful, cannot be a bad thing.

[Burwood]

lyonspride said:

Durzel said:

lyonspride said:

Ah there you see you're wrong again, I didn't blame the victim, I blamed the society that raised that poor girl and fed crazy ideas into her head, to believe that she could go anywhere on her tod and do anything, and nothing bad will ever happen. Because THAT is f**king stupid, and ultimately this belief that other countries are as liberal as we are, is going to (and sometimes does) get people killed.

Women are to some extent gambling with their lives every time they go out on a date with a male stranger. Men are physically much bigger, more likely to be violent or aggressive, etc.

I read an illuminating Twitter thread (I know) about what women would do if men didn’t exist, and it was mundane stuff like going for a run at night, not having to text their friends constantly to let them know they’re ok, etc, e.g stuff you just don’t even think about when you’re not someone who can be physically dominated by approx 50% of the population.

Anyway, your argument basically rules or women being able to use Tinder, or having much in the way of any agency or sexual desires etc, simply because interacting with that 50% of the population is a necessary part of that.

Nope, i'm saying that having a more realistic view of the world, and simply being more careful, cannot be a bad thing.

Be careful so you don’t get killed for doing normal stuff like drinking, having sex, travelling?

[echazfraz]

This is a terrible case which on the face of it has nothing to do with class, colour, creed or country of origin / happenings and some of the fking nonsense in this thread is staggering.

Is there a way to block posts from certain posters on here?

Because some folk (one folk) are outing themselves as absolute wallopers on this thread and, it has to be said, on most threads on which they post.

I'd rather read the threads without the walloper - is this possible?