CPS appealing in 159mph Pc case
Discussion
rewc said:
This is exactly the problem. There should have been a policy in place that lays down the procedure individual police officers have to follow whilst undertaking this hazardous activity. I off course realise that this policeman is highly trained and a class 1 driver, but when the Police are insistent that driving above 70mph is dangerous and can kill, the lack of a policy which states under what circumstances individual officers can exceed this, presumably up to the top speed of the car is negligence. That is not just what I think it is what the judge said.
Don't disagree with any of the above, not least because to do so would be un-PC.
The need for risk assessments for everything these days is more symptomatic of a nannying society where rules and regulations are constantly imposed because the phrase "common sense" increasingly seems to be an oxymoron.
FiF
Not going to get dragged into the argument about 159 and 84 which were not the true speeds by the way.
Without a full knowledge of the exact circumstances in which these figures were achieved it is impossible for sensible comment.
Too many people when commenting on the 30 issue imagine a road familiar to them with all the various daytime hazards in comment as if a "constant and sustained 84" had been driven alomg the road in their imagination. Do you know that is the case here? No thought not.
Secondly it is utterly erroneous to compare competiton driving and that of plod.
The police have NEVER said that the system is the quickest way from A-B. They have NEVER said that the system of car control when applied to a corner, say, is the quickest way round that corner. What it IS though is a systematic and controlled method of making best possible progress without compromising safety. For sure it is possible to go quicker, but always there is that compromise and extra unacceptable risks taken to my mind.
Equally the thought that you can apply driving on circuits and closed roads to open road driving is again a fallacy. There are very few places in UK where a closed road scenario can be regularly obtained where the road is similar in layout to UK single carriageway conditions. Millbrook is one which I have mentioned, one could perhaps include the handling circuits at Mira but then after that you are into race circuits and other proving grounds which are basically airfield conversions.
The effectiveness of training on these areas is limited because of the lack of variability in surface, gradient, texture, camber, grip, lack of potholes, cow muck, difficult sightlines that feature on public roads.
Just to try and remove the tiresome anti plod venom which some contributors fuel their posts with, let us consider the Top Gear test track.
There are only two corners, Chicago and Hammerhead, where the width of the track is artificially reduced from runway / perimeter road dimensions. This is done by use of white lines. Go over the white line what happens? Not much actually.
Thus we see the sort of stupid driving which makes spectacular viewing for small boys, but has little relevance to real life. So the monster sideways slide is held and all back in line by here ...... or maybe over here. It doesn't make much difference really. Except that in the real world the maybe over here is in the ditch and into a tree, or on the wrong side of the road and under a heavy. That is before we get into the questions of quality of surface etc.
That is why, imo, you get cars making a good power lap time yet in real life they are utter losers. Corvette for one, sure its mighty quick on a wide smooth road where the corners are fairly open, but put it down a twisty yellow road and find out the truth. Testing and training on closed circuits is good for some issues but its not the whole picture by a long shot and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
Therefore to get back to you have to test and train on public roads. Yes it would be nice to think that there is resource to train people away from the unsuspecting public; and to train on every vehicle model; and to keep that training continuous and under controlled supervised conditions, but all those of you asking for this are YOU prepared to pay the taxes necessary to achieve this for all EV drivers? No? Thought not.
/rant
FiF
Without a full knowledge of the exact circumstances in which these figures were achieved it is impossible for sensible comment.
Too many people when commenting on the 30 issue imagine a road familiar to them with all the various daytime hazards in comment as if a "constant and sustained 84" had been driven alomg the road in their imagination. Do you know that is the case here? No thought not.
Secondly it is utterly erroneous to compare competiton driving and that of plod.
The police have NEVER said that the system is the quickest way from A-B. They have NEVER said that the system of car control when applied to a corner, say, is the quickest way round that corner. What it IS though is a systematic and controlled method of making best possible progress without compromising safety. For sure it is possible to go quicker, but always there is that compromise and extra unacceptable risks taken to my mind.
Equally the thought that you can apply driving on circuits and closed roads to open road driving is again a fallacy. There are very few places in UK where a closed road scenario can be regularly obtained where the road is similar in layout to UK single carriageway conditions. Millbrook is one which I have mentioned, one could perhaps include the handling circuits at Mira but then after that you are into race circuits and other proving grounds which are basically airfield conversions.
The effectiveness of training on these areas is limited because of the lack of variability in surface, gradient, texture, camber, grip, lack of potholes, cow muck, difficult sightlines that feature on public roads.
Just to try and remove the tiresome anti plod venom which some contributors fuel their posts with, let us consider the Top Gear test track.
There are only two corners, Chicago and Hammerhead, where the width of the track is artificially reduced from runway / perimeter road dimensions. This is done by use of white lines. Go over the white line what happens? Not much actually.
Thus we see the sort of stupid driving which makes spectacular viewing for small boys, but has little relevance to real life. So the monster sideways slide is held and all back in line by here ...... or maybe over here. It doesn't make much difference really. Except that in the real world the maybe over here is in the ditch and into a tree, or on the wrong side of the road and under a heavy. That is before we get into the questions of quality of surface etc.
That is why, imo, you get cars making a good power lap time yet in real life they are utter losers. Corvette for one, sure its mighty quick on a wide smooth road where the corners are fairly open, but put it down a twisty yellow road and find out the truth. Testing and training on closed circuits is good for some issues but its not the whole picture by a long shot and you are fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
Therefore to get back to you have to test and train on public roads. Yes it would be nice to think that there is resource to train people away from the unsuspecting public; and to train on every vehicle model; and to keep that training continuous and under controlled supervised conditions, but all those of you asking for this are YOU prepared to pay the taxes necessary to achieve this for all EV drivers? No? Thought not.
/rant
FiF
Flat in Fifth said:
This is exactly the problem. There should have been a policy in place that lays down the procedure individual police officers have to follow whilst undertaking this hazardous activity. I off course realise that this policeman is highly trained and a class 1 driver, but when the Police are insistent that driving above 70mph is dangerous and can kill, the lack of a policy which states under what circumstances individual officers can exceed this, presumably up to the top speed of the car is negligence. That is not just what I think it is what the judge said.
Don't disagree with any of the above, not least because to do so would be un-PC.
The need for risk assessments for everything these days is more symptomatic of a nannying society where rules and regulations are constantly imposed because the phrase "common sense" increasingly seems to be an oxymoron.
FiF
A bit like the draconian enforcement of inapropriatly low speed limits. A example is a road past a school near where I live, which is a rural road with a footpath seperated from the road by a high bank. It is a 40mph road if ever there was one but of course the lomit is 30. When is is the camera van there? nice summer evenings of course when no children are anywhere near the place.
Flat in Fifth said:
the lack of a policy which states under what circumstances individual officers can exceed this, presumably up to the top speed of the car is negligence.
The need for risk assessments for everything these days is more symptomatic of a nannying society
Nothing to do with risk assessment and nannying society. Everything to do with a properly laid down policy which prevent goalposts being shifted and excuses being made up ad-hoc.
Flat in Fifth said:
Not going to get dragged into the argument about 159 and 84 which were not the true speeds by the way.
SNIP!
Therefore to get back to you have to test and train on public roads. Yes it would be nice to think that there is resource to train people away from the unsuspecting public; and to train on every vehicle model; and to keep that training continuous and under controlled supervised conditions, but all those of you asking for this are YOU prepared to pay the taxes necessary to achieve this for all EV drivers? No? Thought not.
/rant
FiF
with all due...
that's a whole load of claptrap.
and as for paying for proper training, this is something we have done years ago, but seems to be not done any more?
and personally speaking, it's nice to see that my council TAX bill for the last 3 years has showed the police budget increased by 60/42/40% each year, so where is this *massive* increase going then???
Oh, silly me, in speed cameras/mobile vans and bikes, etc etc.
I still see NO REQUIREMENT for such on-road 'pursuit' speeding
scuffham said:
and as for paying for proper training, this is something we have done years ago, but seems to be not done any more?
So let us say you have someone trained to advanced level, all their training has been done on fwd Mondeos and Volvos. Then their force decides to buy rwd Beemers or Mercs or, worse still, large 4x4s.
Like air pilots should there be conversion courses, as from a 767 to an A340 for example? Let's face it they all handle differently from the training vehicles, especially the 4x4. Or should it be taken that the individual has enough training and skill to figure out the new vehicle for him or herself?
And how should that training be accomplished? You buy a new car do you ask for familiarisation instruction from the dealer or just blatt it out onto the road and figure it out as you go along?
In an ideal world the answer would be yes, before sticky mitts put onto a Range Rover, say, there should be a controlled supervised instruction. So more poor old plod off the streets. Are you going to pay for that?
And are you going to pay for sufficient regular training more than the 3 yearly retests or whatever policy is in force. Because plod is no longer able to keep his eye in on self training.
And are you going to pay the same for normal plod on continuous training and conversion courses for Astra/Corsa/Focus/ dog van/Tranny van/LDV/Pug 307 bla bla bla??
And pay the same again for ambulance service, fire service, coastguard, bomb disposal.....
scuffham said:
8< snip 8<
I still see NO REQUIREMENT for such on-road 'pursuit' speeding
Then you want such instruction away from public roads. You don't pay for that and never have.
Deliberately provocative comment follows, no apologies.
I hope that, should you ever have the misfortune to dial 999, you have the opportunity to reflect on your last comment as you sit there wondering where the emergency services have got to.
FFS you really are pushing it now.
so, you really think you need the same level of re-training between different cars that pilot's do?
a proffessional driver should be able to addapt between cars, not go cryhing they they need special training (then go speeding around the public highway on some limp pre-text).
look at the (late) Gerry Marshal, did he ask for re-training whe he got into another type of car? how many cars has he driven over the years? same for Striling Moss, or just about *every* pro-driver.
that really was a stupid comment to put it mildly.
as for paying for it, I belive we pay way too much for a crap service, and the times I have attempted to use it, have just proved me right, where I live we have NO police presence, period, so what am I paying for?
I think you (collectively) need to have a hard think about what you are there to do and who pays for you.
/rant over/
so, you really think you need the same level of re-training between different cars that pilot's do?
a proffessional driver should be able to addapt between cars, not go cryhing they they need special training (then go speeding around the public highway on some limp pre-text).
look at the (late) Gerry Marshal, did he ask for re-training whe he got into another type of car? how many cars has he driven over the years? same for Striling Moss, or just about *every* pro-driver.
that really was a stupid comment to put it mildly.
as for paying for it, I belive we pay way too much for a crap service, and the times I have attempted to use it, have just proved me right, where I live we have NO police presence, period, so what am I paying for?
I think you (collectively) need to have a hard think about what you are there to do and who pays for you.
/rant over/
scuffham said:
so, you really think you need the same level of re-training between different cars that pilot's do?
No of course not.
scuffham said:
a proffessional driver should be able to addapt between cars, not go crying they they need special training (then go speeding around the public highway on some limp pre-text).
Yes they should, but the point is how do you adapt to vehicles which are very different in performance and learn how to handle such vehicles in extremis when the public appears to be saying that no practice is allowed.
Do you get into a strange vehicle and then drive it safely to ten tenths, or even eight tenths from day one minute one? I don't that is for sure. Neither did Gerry Marshall, I think you will find out he .... er ..... practiced.
So rather than just have a no no no attitude, what are your positive practical suggestions for how this should be done?
look,
I am not suggesting that no training is required, quite the opposite, what I said further up the thread was thet this should be done in a closed, controled environment, not the public road.
As for Gerry, practice, you having a laugh? most of the time you get 10-20 mins to set a time, that's it.
if you can get a test day before then you are doing well, may I suggest you actually try racing, you might get a handle in what is involved.
I am not suggesting that no training is required, quite the opposite, what I said further up the thread was thet this should be done in a closed, controled environment, not the public road.
As for Gerry, practice, you having a laugh? most of the time you get 10-20 mins to set a time, that's it.
if you can get a test day before then you are doing well, may I suggest you actually try racing, you might get a handle in what is involved.
scuffham said:
I am not suggesting that no training is required, quite the opposite, what I said further up the thread was thet this should be done in a closed, controled environment, not the public road.
Yes I know what you said, and what I am saying is that there is a dearth of relevant "closed, controlled environments" and that this only covers a limited extent of the skills required. I think, but that is only my opinion, that to provide enough places to develop the whole range of skills would be prohibitively expensive and possibly impractical.
scuffham said:
may I suggest you actually try racing, you might get a handle in what is involved.
I am no good at racing, I find it boring going round in circles and don't have the patience to sort out the lines, braking points to perfection.
What I DO have the ability to do is to drive down a road I have not seen before and do it vv quickly. Check my profile pic.
All the best, off to my pit.
scuffham said:
look,
if you can get a test day before then you are doing well, may I suggest you actually try racing, you might get a handle in what is involved.
Racing and road driving are two different animals.
Racers practice a circuit so they know it. They also practice the car
Road drivers do not have the luxury of practicing the problems they might or will experience in a public environment.
There is no point training someone to practice on a closed circuit as it is not a realistic situation so other than learning the track and its individual charcteristics, there is no point and no value.
There is no point learning to race and use that in a raod environment. It is worthless!
Many trained racing drivers do not make especially good road drivers unless they have had the input to transfer the two different skills.
Many expert racing drivers crash!
Many expert road drivers crash (whether on purpose or not as the case may be
) Being good on a track can make you lethal on the road if you apply those principles! In the public domain, we are not in a race
. Being good on the road will not win you many races!
Police driver training is constantly scrutinised not only by the managers (ACPO) but by the home office and those who deliver the training itself.
Public environment training for emergency services is necessary and valuable, there are very few incidents where problems occur during these sessions, hundreds of which take place every working day of the year!!!
>> Edited by gone on Monday 13th June 11:34
Zod said:
I agree with all that, gone, but I don't believe that PC Milton's joyride constituted road driving training.
It wasn't structured road driver training.
It was self appraisal and practice!
That is where the whole thing falls down I am afraid!!!
To remain good at something, you need to practice regularly and to push yourself. However you need to do so with intelligent restraint. I am afraid that intelligent restraint was missing from PC Miltons account! No problem with the higher speeds, but would never put myself in a position I had to defend high speeds in restricted (red ringed) limits!
Surely the point is, if we are going to make even a tenious comparison with cross type training on aircraft we have to compare like with like.
Where was the guy's training plan, where were his preagreed goals and more to the point where was the instructor...
Training is only training if it is properly structured and has an agreed set of goals, constant monitoring (human or electronic) and a post flight comparison can be made with a perfectly rated performance, it should include a full debrief to compare the goals with the actual performance.
With none of these things "high speed training" becomes simply a hoon down the motorway.
Where was the guy's training plan, where were his preagreed goals and more to the point where was the instructor...
Training is only training if it is properly structured and has an agreed set of goals, constant monitoring (human or electronic) and a post flight comparison can be made with a perfectly rated performance, it should include a full debrief to compare the goals with the actual performance.
With none of these things "high speed training" becomes simply a hoon down the motorway.
exactly,
I really take issue with peoples interpritation of that racing is all about, there are *many* different branches of racing other than cct racing, take rally-racing, this is often on 'roads' that are un-seen by the driver, on very changable surfaces, at extreame speeds for example...
I still cannot see a need to this so called training on the road.
I really take issue with peoples interpritation of that racing is all about, there are *many* different branches of racing other than cct racing, take rally-racing, this is often on 'roads' that are un-seen by the driver, on very changable surfaces, at extreame speeds for example...
I still cannot see a need to this so called training on the road.
scuffham said:
exactly,
.....un-seen by the driver, on very changable surfaces, at extreame speeds for example...
You forgot to mention without opposing traffic, traffic in front and behind travelling in the same direction and moving at uncontrolled different velocity, parked traffic, manouvering traffic, pedestrians/cyclists crossing at will etc!!!
scuffham said:
I still cannot see a need to this so called training on the road.
Thank god for that then.
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