A State of Lawlessness
Discussion
sibriers said:
Just as bad down here in Sussex..
Some "highlights":
No front numberplate
Illegal LED halogen replacement bulbs
Failed headlights, brake and tail bulbs
Driving at night with only DRLs - Clue's in the name people...
Phone and sat nav mounted centrally on the windscreen
Windows 90% steamed up
Parking facing oncoming traffic with stupid adaptive HID suncore bstards blinding everyone
These are all super easy to spot but presumably no-one gets pulled and as a result people just don't bother and don't care how it might impact other road users..
Boils my pish
I'm not sure if people very publicly not giving a toss is ignorance of the law or arrogance in assuming the law doesn't apply to them but there sure is a awful lot of it about and that sounds no different to the selfish couldn't care less attitude that abounds in much of the Essex Badlands.Some "highlights":
No front numberplate
Illegal LED halogen replacement bulbs
Failed headlights, brake and tail bulbs
Driving at night with only DRLs - Clue's in the name people...
Phone and sat nav mounted centrally on the windscreen
Windows 90% steamed up
Parking facing oncoming traffic with stupid adaptive HID suncore bstards blinding everyone
These are all super easy to spot but presumably no-one gets pulled and as a result people just don't bother and don't care how it might impact other road users..
Boils my pish
It probably wouldn't take much for the BiB to have a heavy cull on anti social driving or faulty lights or missing number plates or phone use and no doubt there would be occasions where a stop for something that clearly demonstrates a nihilistic attitude toward the law would uncover further offences but you can bet everybody caught would be screaming long and loud about police victimization and their rights and entitlements whilst remaining completely silent regarding their obligations and responsibilities to other people using the road.
Some people are simply too thick or too self-centered to understand that laws are made for everybody's benefit.
psi310398 said:
Yes, I do think that manning levels should reflect the need. Police should also be relieved of much of the paperwork/form filling that they appear to be required to perform.
I'd also be interested to know how much the broken windows theory still holds - does allowing low level disorder to proliferate flow through into other low-level disorder and into more serious crime? I suspect it does and that the government would do well, if it is going to invest in neglected places, rather than finding new Humber Bridges to spaff money on, to expend resources in combating this disorder, through more police on the beat and also through low level public works - anti-litter, public realm improvements etc.
Every time I travel through (admittedly Western) Germany, I am struck by how orderly, clean and well maintained the public spaces generally are. The same is also true of much of rural France (allegedly depopulated to the point of unsustainability). Look at the absence of litter on the verges of motorways in those countries, too. I simply cannot understand why we cannot do the same.
It stands to reason that if the authorities take pride in their places and people, those affected might respond in kind.
The research on the 'broken window' in the USA was flawed, and in a big way. An ambitious DA suggested that the police should deal with minor offences and a decrease in minor offences was noticed. This was published and the guy became a policing hero. What he forgot to mention was that he increased funding, manpower and resources. I'd also be interested to know how much the broken windows theory still holds - does allowing low level disorder to proliferate flow through into other low-level disorder and into more serious crime? I suspect it does and that the government would do well, if it is going to invest in neglected places, rather than finding new Humber Bridges to spaff money on, to expend resources in combating this disorder, through more police on the beat and also through low level public works - anti-litter, public realm improvements etc.
Every time I travel through (admittedly Western) Germany, I am struck by how orderly, clean and well maintained the public spaces generally are. The same is also true of much of rural France (allegedly depopulated to the point of unsustainability). Look at the absence of litter on the verges of motorways in those countries, too. I simply cannot understand why we cannot do the same.
It stands to reason that if the authorities take pride in their places and people, those affected might respond in kind.
The other aspect was getting police officers out on the street. This is a great idea, but the received wisdom that police officers want to stay in the nick is rather nonsensical. Further, the English/Welsh forces took to civilianisation in a big way, taking away mundane processes and having trained clerical staff to do it quicker, cheaper and without so many spelling mistakes. Mind you, this came at the same time when there was a massive increase in costs, such as IT, and all it meant was that patrolling numbers remained the same. Then . . .
The dolt Cameron slashed the budget, but in order to keep up appearances, the then home secretary, submarine May, demanded that the first ones to be cast should be civilians. This cost the police even more. We had expensive, warrant-holding police officers transcribing taped interviews and typing. Bewildering requirement by a bewildering woman. The positive is that when these police officers are inside the nick, performing tasks they are not trained for, they are shown as 'available' or on patrol. (I still stay in touch with someone in the control rooms.)
Back in the 90s, Shoreham-by-Sea, not a hotbed of antisocial behaviour, tried the 'broken window' model. The inspector in charge, a lovely chap, said that the problem was that police officers were forever writing up minor transgressions. So patrol suffered.
It was a worthwhile exercise though.
MC Bodge said:
I have never understood the long-term British propensity for dropping litter.
Keep Britain Tidy has been going for a long time, for a reason.
Keep Britain Tidy has been going for a long time, for a reason.
I saw more roadside litter here in the UK before I'd even got to the top of Dover hill on my way home from the ferry port than I'd seen in a whole three and a half weeks touring round France last summer. Most of the verges on major roads in Essex are ankle deep in litter and tyre carcasses and virtually every layby has a generous helping of fly tipped furniture and builders waste and orange bottles of truckers piss lobbed out the window. Years ago it never used to be anything like as bad as it is now and it's difficult to conclude anything but the vast majority of the British public have turned into dirty inconsiderate lazy Scumbags.
Cold said:
Am I the only one who doesn't want a load of trigger happy police officers watching my every move? I'm quite happy being left to my own devices.
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
The BiB don't want to waste resources or time on you anymore then you want them to waste resources or time on you so the sensible thing to do is pass the Attitude test and cooperate if you're spoken to any reason and providing you aren't being a naughty boy you'll be free to go on your way.
If on the other hand you are being a naughty boy then you can still pass the Attitude test by fessing up straight away and admiting it.
It's not rocket science.
Jaguar steve said:
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
The BiB don't want to waste resources or time on you anymore then you want them to waste resources or time on you so the sensible thing to do is pass the Attitude test and cooperate if you're spoken to any reason and providing you aren't being a naughty boy you'll be free to go on your way.
If on the other hand you are being a naughty boy then you can still pass the Attitude test by fessing up straight away and admiting it.
It's not rocket science.
Me, I'm more than capable of conducting myself without a continued requirement for the police to check up on me.
(The "attitude test" is a big old crock, btw)
Cold said:
Jaguar steve said:
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
The BiB don't want to waste resources or time on you anymore then you want them to waste resources or time on you so the sensible thing to do is pass the Attitude test and cooperate if you're spoken to any reason and providing you aren't being a naughty boy you'll be free to go on your way.
If on the other hand you are being a naughty boy then you can still pass the Attitude test by fessing up straight away and admiting it.
It's not rocket science.
Me, I'm more than capable of conducting myself without a continued requirement for the police to check up on me.
(The "attitude test" is a big old crock, btw)
I've not been stopped since the late 1970s - probably because since then I've not drawn attention to myself and given the BiB any reason to do so.
If you are stopped and regardless of whether there may or may not be a attitude test with any particular Officer why wouldn't you be polite and courteous though?
Cold said:
Am I the only one who doesn't want a load of trigger happy police officers watching my every move? I'm quite happy being left to my own devices.
Yup. And encouraging or deputizing the sort of people who want to spy on their neighbours to do so with cameras is straight out of the Soviet Union playbook. Rank stupidity that we will regret.Jaguar steve said:
MC Bodge said:
I have never understood the long-term British propensity for dropping litter.
Keep Britain Tidy has been going for a long time, for a reason.
Keep Britain Tidy has been going for a long time, for a reason.
I saw more roadside litter here in the UK before I'd even got to the top of Dover hill on my way home from the ferry port than I'd seen in a whole three and a half weeks touring round France last summer. Most of the verges on major roads in Essex are ankle deep in litter and tyre carcasses and virtually every layby has a generous helping of fly tipped furniture and builders waste and orange bottles of truckers piss lobbed out the window. Years ago it never used to be anything like as bad as it is now and it's difficult to conclude anything but the vast majority of the British public have turned into dirty inconsiderate lazy Scumbags.
I don't think that people have changed that much. There was fly tipping and litter in the early 80s, and probably before.
It does seem to be very prevalent in the UK, though.
Jaguar steve said:
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
All fine and dandy until a government with a nasty authoritarian streak gets in.ISTR Martin Niemöller wrote a poem about that.
We should all be on guard against an erosion of freedom, one brick at a time.
All too easy to be taken in until you find you're surrounded by an impenetrable wall.
It is naive to assume that it could never happen in the UK.
Red Devil said:
Jaguar steve said:
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
All fine and dandy until a government with a nasty authoritarian streak gets in.ISTR Martin Niemöller wrote a poem about that.
We should all be on guard against an erosion of freedom, one brick at a time.
All too easy to be taken in until you find you're surrounded by an impenetrable wall.
It is naive to assume that it could never happen in the UK.
The problem is, it often doesn't work like that.
TGTiff said:
I drive the M6 / M5 and because the car uses a lot less fuel at a steady 70 rather than 70+, I stick to the speed limit.
Everything (apart from HGVs) is overtaking me.
I know it's from a long way up the thread, but:Everything (apart from HGVs) is overtaking me.
If you're doing 70, then people doing more than that will overtake you. You won't see all the other people also doing 70, as they will stay the same distance away from you as you all move along the road...
I also believe you're ignoring a significant number of Jazzes, Micras, Notes, etc, etc, trundling along at 50mph and causing even the HGVs to have to pull out from time to time. Not to mention EVs trying to get somewhere without an extra hour's break
Red Devil said:
Jaguar steve said:
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
All fine and dandy until a government with a nasty authoritarian streak gets in.ISTR Martin Niemöller wrote a poem about that.
We should all be on guard against an erosion of freedom, one brick at a time.
All too easy to be taken in until you find you're surrounded by an impenetrable wall.
It is naive to assume that it could never happen in the UK.
Laws alone will never achieve the right balance - people have got to want a certain balance between the two extremes for it it to actually happen, and whilst there's less restriction or control of low level lawlessness and the selfish ignorance that causes it prevails its a easy conclusion to make that's actually what people want.
If people cared about roadside litter for example they'd not chuck handfuls of it out their car windows. No doubt the same people that do chuck handfuls of litter out their windows without a thought would be outraged if somebody else chucked the same handful of litter into their front garden so there's clearly some typically British hypocritical double standards here too.
Cold said:
Am I the only one who doesn't want a load of trigger happy police officers watching my every move? I'm quite happy being left to my own devices.
I jest (and exaggerate) only slightly but is it not a teeny bit of a logical leap inferring that a question about policing along broken windows lines is scarcely removed from advocating operating Guatemala-type death squads?Jaguar steve said:
I'm not sure if people very publicly not giving a toss is ignorance of the law or arrogance in assuming the law doesn't apply to them but there sure is a awful lot of it about and that sounds no different to the selfish couldn't care less attitude that abounds in much of the Essex Badlands.
It probably wouldn't take much for the BiB to have a heavy cull on anti social driving or faulty lights or missing number plates or phone use and no doubt there would be occasions where a stop for something that clearly demonstrates a nihilistic attitude toward the law would uncover further offences but you can bet everybody caught would be screaming long and loud about police victimization and their rights and entitlements whilst remaining completely silent regarding their obligations and responsibilities to other people using the road.
Some people are simply too thick or too self-centered to understand that laws are made for everybody's benefit. .
The intention may be to make laws for everybody's benefit, unfortunately that only works with appropriate policing, prosecution, and sentencing. To give but one example;- which is of greater benefit, to prosecute someone driving at 110 mph under appropriate conditions, fining them several hundred pounds, and banning them from driving, or prosecuting a lorry driver for following a car at a distance of 3 metres through a controlled section of roadworks where the car driver has no opportunity to accelerate out of danger? There are many examples of the former, yet one rarely reads of the latter, despite it being a far more frequent occurrence.It probably wouldn't take much for the BiB to have a heavy cull on anti social driving or faulty lights or missing number plates or phone use and no doubt there would be occasions where a stop for something that clearly demonstrates a nihilistic attitude toward the law would uncover further offences but you can bet everybody caught would be screaming long and loud about police victimization and their rights and entitlements whilst remaining completely silent regarding their obligations and responsibilities to other people using the road.
Some people are simply too thick or too self-centered to understand that laws are made for everybody's benefit. .
Jaguar steve said:
Red Devil said:
Jaguar steve said:
I'm of the view if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear.
All fine and dandy until a government with a nasty authoritarian streak gets in.ISTR Martin Niemöller wrote a poem about that.
We should all be on guard against an erosion of freedom, one brick at a time.
All too easy to be taken in until you find you're surrounded by an impenetrable wall.
It is naive to assume that it could never happen in the UK.
Laws alone will never achieve the right balance - people have got to want a certain balance between the two extremes for it it to actually happen, and whilst there's less restriction or control of low level lawlessness and the selfish ignorance that causes it prevails its a easy conclusion to make that's actually what people want.
If people cared about roadside litter for example they'd not chuck handfuls of it out their car windows. No doubt the same people that do chuck handfuls of litter out their windows without a thought would be outraged if somebody else chucked the same handful of litter into their front garden so there's clearly some typically British hypocritical double standards here too.
Police numbers per capita of population are almost at the highest levels ever, yet there seem to be fewer traffic police, fewer general patrols, and less investigation of real crime than I can remember. Officers must be doing something, but what? Surely they aren't all engaged on VIP protection duty.
psi310398 said:
Cold said:
Am I the only one who doesn't want a load of trigger happy police officers watching my every move? I'm quite happy being left to my own devices.
I jest (and exaggerate) only slightly but is it not a teeny bit of a logical leap inferring that a question about policing along broken windows lines is scarcely removed from advocating operating Guatemala-type death squads?I live in East London and see the problems listed on this thread on a daily - indeed hourly - basis. I've often wondered why the police are so supine about tackling these issues. "Don't have the money" is the oft-cited excuse but frankly it's wearing thin.
MC Bodge said:
Everybody is keen for an authoritarian regime - with punitive treatment of other people- on their own terms.
The problem is, it often doesn't work like that.
It doesn’t, it can’t. Trouble is, guys like jaguar steve have got to an age where ‘everything was better’. Of course now, everything isn’t, it’s a common misconception from those who are stuck in the past. The problem is, it often doesn't work like that.
How about we take these extended powers and to limit the dangers of driving across the board that after all the really serious stuff like number plates have been addressed we look at the older drivers?
I’ve seen far too many of them recently who shouldn’t be out. They can’t see, or react fast enough in modern traffic conditions. I therefore suggest everyone over 60 has a curfew, drive only out of rush hour and not in darkness. Probably best to restrict their cars as well, obviously we’ll tax them 3x to cover the financials?
Sound good?
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