A State of Lawlessness

[Bigends]

Derek Smith said:

Bigends said:

carreauchompeur said:

Agreed. Crime recording is absolutely insane now, everything that might be a crime goes straight to Niche and needs ‘servicing’. Admin types review the crime and tell you what crime it is, and then that you’ve got to raise 2 other crimes because rules.

None of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.

Agreed but rules are rules - give any leeway or discretion and the system falls down -the counting rules are what they are - NICHE and similar new systems are the problem - not fit for purpose. We had a previous system still working well - with modifications from 1989 - crime report on in under five minutes - takes over 40 minutes now

Edited by Bigends on Sunday 19th January 16:39

Then change the rules to take away some of the burden.

Statistics are seen as the be all and end all. It should not be police officers who service this apparent need. A warrant is an expensive luxury.

My feeling is that statistics should be snap-shot. Works for sciency stuff, so why not for the police?

Agreed - but what do you not record then? Theres no easy answer.

Theyre in their current form to ensure Police have an accurate figure as to what crimes are occuring.

Certainly in my force there are no warranted officers involved(apart from a couple on maternity restrictions and long term sick) in crime recording, admin or management - all Police staff.

Edited by Bigends on Sunday 19th January 19:48

[psi310398]

yonex said:

Yeah more Police are needed....er no.

According to that Italy is much more policed. Well, as someone who pretty much lives there I can tell you that is very far from the truth.

I think Italy is pretty well coppered - I spend half the year there and see many more police out and about than in London - on foot and in cars. I see officers from the local police and Carabinieri at least daily. The P Stradale and Guardia di Finanza once or twice a week, the latter still patrol our lake pretty frequently.

And they have frequent roadside stops: I would hazard that my car is stopped for a routine papers check at the roadside at least once a week by one type of policeman or another.

[anonymous-user]

psi310398 said:

I think Italy is pretty well coppered - I spend half the year there and see many more police out and about than in London - on foot and in cars. I see officers from the local police and Carabinieri at least daily. The P Stradale and Guardia di Finanza once or twice a week, the latter still patrol our lake pretty frequently.

And they have frequent roadside stops: I would hazard that my car is stopped for a routine papers check at the roadside at least once a week by one type of policeman or another.

Not where I am, a few roadside stops, but you have so many different plod anyway. Milan, isn’t overly full of police either, which is nice.

[JamesR32]

Derek Smith said:

Then change the rules to take away some of the burden.

Statistics are seen as the be all and end all. It should not be police officers who service this apparent need. A warrant is an expensive luxury.

My feeling is that statistics should be snap-shot. Works for sciency stuff, so why not for the police?

If only the Home Office would take the same viewpoint. I’m sure some changes will come prior to the next general election, when Boris needs to show that crime has fallen. All they’d need to do is remove the requirement to record an additional harassment crime for anyone who’s ever had two arguments and the “violent crime” stats would drop by about 10%. That’s right; name calling is “violent crime”.

The sooner you get £45k Sergeants away from the madness of bean counting, the sooner it’ll be a better place. It restricts the supervision of an already fairly junior workforce and it stifles their learning to do the job well.

[psi310398]

yonex said:

Not where I am, a few roadside stops, but you have so many different plod anyway. Milan, isn’t overly full of police either, which is nice.

Interesting, but Lake Maggiore (a little way up the road) is awash with them - not literally but YKWIM.

[Bigends]

JamesR32 said:

Derek Smith said:

Then change the rules to take away some of the burden.

Statistics are seen as the be all and end all. It should not be police officers who service this apparent need. A warrant is an expensive luxury.

My feeling is that statistics should be snap-shot. Works for sciency stuff, so why not for the police?

If only the Home Office would take the same viewpoint. I’m sure some changes will come prior to the next general election, when Boris needs to show that crime has fallen. All they’d need to do is remove the requirement to record an additional harassment crime for anyone who’s ever had two arguments and the “violent crime” stats would drop by about 10%. That’s right; name calling is “violent crime”.

The sooner you get £45k Sergeants away from the madness of bean counting, the sooner it’ll be a better place. It restricts the supervision of an already fairly junior workforce and it stifles their learning to do the job well.

So reduce crime by not recording it? - dont really want to go back to those days do we?. Whats this bean counting that Sergeants are doing?

[irocfan]

interesting that Cyprus has so many police per head given their less than stellar reputation.... One might also look at SYP and argue that maybe a mindset change would do as many wonders as more bodies (more in fact!)

[JamesR32]

Bigends said:

So reduce crime by not recording it? - dont really want to go back to those days do we?. Whats this bean counting that Sergeants are doing?

Putting on extra crimes as they fall out of investigations... Example: Report of two people having a spat in the street which gets a bit sweary, record a Public Order Crime (Violent Crime). One discloses that it's happened once before; now it's a course of conduct, record a further Harassment (further Violent Crime).

Each of those is a 20 minute process... That's cost the taxpayer £15. There's over a million of those a year.

Also, when you factor in that even the ONS does not regard 'Police Recorded Crime' as a National Statistic, instead preferring the Crime Survey; why are we obsessing over this so much? Why is so much money ploughed into these records? That time could be much better spent mentoring new Officers and rounding them into more efficient, balanced individuals.

The same is true of Constables... Why is so much time invested in form filling, which often occurs in triplicate, often just for the sake of 'looking transparent'? Another example: Four Officers attend a Disorder; they now spend an additional 20 minutes each, downloading, saving and clipping their Body-Worn Video. That wasn't a thing 10 years ago; now it's another hour and 20 minutes; another £20 worth of time that they're not doing something else. What for? They don't reduce assaults on officers; they haven't reduced complaints; they cause an almost equal amount of stress (surveillance) to the reassurance they provide others; the footage is seldom used as evidence in Court because the Officer statements are there. Those stats are from Liberty and Big Brother Watch, with the exception of the last point, which wasn't quantifiable, but I see it time and time again.

It's infuriating! It's all just so inefficient! Does anyone honestly value that level of time investment? Sorry, I can't investigate your crime, I don't have time, I'm too busy counting the correct number of Crimes that I don't have time to investigate, because the only thing I'll be hauled over the coals for, is failing to record the crimes, rather than not solving them. That's the tail wagging the dog to me. [/rant]

[Derek Smith]

It's not only sergeants who are occupied by bean counting.

We had a DCI en route to a murder victim. He was walking. A result of a call to a disturbance on division was radioed back as a non-violent disagreement between two men. The DCI came on the air and told the officer to ensure that he resulted it.

This is the reality of how the police are judged.The DCI was one of the better ones. He did some great work. He also wasted time on stats.

I've been to meetings, the plural intended, on resulting. Someone wrote an operational order on the subject. It takes up time.

There should be proper statistics for analysis and planning. However, two blokes having an argument at Black Rock is not something that should be on the stats, other than as NCPA.

[jdw100]

I suppose you need to consider how draconian you want to be and also how proactive rather than reactive?

One of my Brothers-in-law is a Policeman in Timor. Town on the border with East-Timor, growing due to increasing importance of trade, lots of civil servants visiting and based there. I think about 120,000 people, something like that..?

Lets say you are a known trouble maker, drink, like a fight etc.... he might visit you on a Thursday or Friday and tell you that he doesn't want to see you out on Friday night. If he does he will send you home or lock you up for the night.

Come out of prison and live in his area; he'll make visits, warn you to stay out of trouble.

He lives in the patch he looks after. Never entirely off-duty, if there's, for example, something happening in early hours of the morning then the station can call him or colleagues and he'll be out of bed and off to deal.

The line between on and off duty seems quite blurred. Up to him how he focuses his time, as far as I can tell. I'm sure if crime went up there would be more scrutiny.

Has a police car and a bike (scooter) at his house. No need to get to the station.

They have a number of stations in town, each serving a particular area.

Walk around his bit of town with him (when out of uniform) and a lot of people know him, stop to chat etc. Seems well liked and respected.

Hasn't got a gun. That's for sergeants and above. He could call on regional Police if needed, they are a bit more hardcore. Not sure if he's ever done that?


Imagine if Police in UK went around warning trouble makers to stay at home on weekend nights or they might end up in a cell? Hell of an outcry!

Edited by jdw100 on Tuesday 21st January 05:23

Edited by jdw100 on Tuesday 21st January 05:29

[GreatGranny]

That's how the old beat bobby used to do things so I can imagine.

He had a patch, sometimes it was where he was born and grew up.

He walked it every shift.

Knew most people by sight.

The trouble makers, vulnerable, youngsters on verge of trouble he knew by name.

You could have a friendly chat.

Call him if in needed instead of 999 call.

This wasn't that long ago.
I'm mid 50's and we had one in our large village stationed in a small station attached to his house.
Must have been 25 years since the station closed.

[carinaman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51221054

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/londone...

Seems the police will be 'learning lessons' on why crime detection rates are now so low.

It's surely a coincidence that detection rates have dropped while the amount of police time getting social media hits and followers has increased, correlation isn't causation etc.

[carreauchompeur]

Yes, you’re talking utter bks

[jdw100]

carinaman said:

It's surely a coincidence that detection rates have dropped while the amount of police time getting social media hits and followers has increased, correlation isn't causation etc.

Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean there.

Are you saying that the Police are spending so much time on social media that is responsible for an increase in crime? Or that so much time is spent on this media that it prevents Police from solving crimes?

Aren't the reasons well understood: reduction in Police numbers as well as civilian admin, cuts to mental health services, reduced provision of community centres/youth clubs, a new strategy for drug gangs (using the 'county lines' approach) etc..

I can't see how Police social media accounts would make much difference? Or did I get wrong end of the stick?

[jdw100]

GreatGranny said:

That's how the old beat bobby used to do things so I can imagine.

He had a patch, sometimes it was where he was born and grew up.

He walked it every shift.

Knew most people by sight.

The trouble makers, vulnerable, youngsters on verge of trouble he knew by name.

You could have a friendly chat.

Call him if in needed instead of 999 call.

This wasn't that long ago.
I'm mid 50's and we had one in our large village stationed in a small station attached to his house.
Must have been 25 years since the station closed.

I'm not in any way holding up this country as a bastion of good policing.

We do have a quarter of the violent crime of the UK, but that is probably more to do with culture than good policing.

However, at a crossroads near my house a Policeman often parks his Police car (Mazda 6, looks good in police livery!). He stands around, might help with traffic flow, chats to people etc.

If I turn up with my daughter to cross the road to go to a cafe, he kneels down to have a little chat with her, then regardless of weight of traffic will walk out into the road blowing his whistle and stop it for us to cross.

If I'm on my own he will often say; Good Morning Sir. I will respond with Good Morning Sir, how are you today? I'm good Sir how is your little one? She is good, thank you Sir.

There we go. All very pleasant. He's been turning up there for at least four years.

I'm sure in UK this would be seen as an absolute waste of time...but its a visible presence and makes you feel better.

In eight years of living in St Albans I think I saw Police officers on the streets maybe five or six times a year...

We have a police station just up the road. They often do road block spot checks, if you don't have necessary docs for your bike or car they might hang on to it until you do. They will also fine you if you are the sort of dhead who rides without a helmet. They set up other random stops along the road as well.The incident of stolen bikes/cars is low here.

We also have local security - funded by I guess you could call the council (its more complicated than that) and part volunteer. Say you had a noise issue - they would come to deal with it.

If we have a party (Christmas/ kids birthday (40 kids this year...god)/big BBQ...) we let the local guys know. They will handle parking and anything that might occur. They would ensure that it isn't too noisy after 22:00. Bung them the equivalent of £10 and I always take out some food and soft drinks.

A friend of ours rented out her house/villa to some Russians for six months. First week there they started drinking round the pool playing loud music shouting etc. Neighbours not impressed and called her, Russians couldn't see that they were doing anything wrong, arrogant and thought that they could do whatever they wanted in 'their house'.

Happened again a week later, including glass bottles being thrown into other gardens. Local security called - made them stop. This is a pickup with four burly guys in it, the Russians not quite as cocky as when dealing with a 45kg woman on her own. They were warned its a residential area, not again; last chance.

You guessed it, a week later the same thing including them drinking heavily in the street. Local security called this time with, for want of a better description, the local head of village (its a town but spilt into areas). This time they were told pack up your st and leave within 24 hours or we will drag all your stuff out into the street.

Russians not happy, moaning they had paid six months rent. Were told 'don't care'; sling your hook within 24hrs.

Heavy handed? - absolutely. Much anti-social behaviour? - not really.


I'll add: couple of years back there appeared a couple of gangs of youths riding round of bikes causing a nuisance, some bag and phone snatches (sound familiar?) This culminated in an army cadet getting stabbed and killed during what was a robbery. He was surrounded by one of the gangs, refused to give over his suff; got murdered for it.

Two weeks later - Chief of Police is on TV and in papers etc. Surrounded by a group of tough looking officers. They had bought this team high powered bikes and Tasers, They had also been sent to Jakarta for 10 days training with some sort of Special Forces group.

He said, you want to ride round in gangs like this? My new team is coming for you. You want to cause trouble - we are going to put you in prison.

Seemed to work. We still get bag snatchers but these are individuals or a pair of guys. Get caught (they often do) and that's 3 to 5 years inside.

We had several groups of Bulgarian ATM skimmers - they had £500 of my money! Stake outs, working with local business and security etc...caught them. 7-9 years and immediate deportation on release plus big fines or more time in prison. Boom!

Edited by jdw100 on Friday 24th January 03:23

[rickygolf83]

Sounds like an assertive police force with the backing of their government to do the job they signed up to, and a justice system being able to administer justice

Edited by rickygolf83 on Tuesday 28th January 22:53

[Who me ?]

Johnnytheboy said:

Was anyone speeding?

Get out of Greater London, it's nowhere near as bad in the Shires... yet.

Though you have a lot more doddery old folk to navigate.

Sadly some of the so called doddery old PH folk are getting a bit P 'ed off . Today I had one 35 anywhere try to block my overtake and when it failed, give me a long horn blast with flashing lights after it had tried to block my overtake. Personally as an old PH dodder who thinks that 30-35 in a 50 is extracting the pices, I'm getting a bit peed off with the "old dodder" tag. To me ,it's the younger ( driving without forward vision) lot that fail to see hazards well in advance. Well -thy are so brainwashed by the hazard test that anything further than 5 metres is not a hazard.

[wisbech]

jdw100 said:

I'm not in any way holding up this country as a bastion of good policing.

We do have a quarter of the violent crime of the UK, but that is probably more to do with culture than good policing.

However, at a crossroads near my house a Policeman often parks his Police car (Mazda 6, looks good in police livery!). He stands around, might help with traffic flow, chats to people etc.

If I turn up with my daughter to cross the road to go to a cafe, he kneels down to have a little chat with her, then regardless of weight of traffic will walk out into the road blowing his whistle and stop it for us to cross.

If I'm on my own he will often say; Good Morning Sir. I will respond with Good Morning Sir, how are you today? I'm good Sir how is your little one? She is good, thank you Sir.

There we go. All very pleasant. He's been turning up there for at least four years.

I'm sure in UK this would be seen as an absolute waste of time...but its a visible presence and makes you feel better.

In eight years of living in St Albans I think I saw Police officers on the streets maybe five or six times a year...

We have a police station just up the road. They often do road block spot checks, if you don't have necessary docs for your bike or car they might hang on to it until you do. They will also fine you if you are the sort of dhead who rides without a helmet. They set up other random stops along the road as well.The incident of stolen bikes/cars is low here.

We also have local security - funded by I guess you could call the council (its more complicated than that) and part volunteer. Say you had a noise issue - they would come to deal with it.

If we have a party (Christmas/ kids birthday (40 kids this year...god)/big BBQ...) we let the local guys know. They will handle parking and anything that might occur. They would ensure that it isn't too noisy after 22:00. Bung them the equivalent of £10 and I always take out some food and soft drinks.

A friend of ours rented out her house/villa to some Russians for six months. First week there they started drinking round the pool playing loud music shouting etc. Neighbours not impressed and called her, Russians couldn't see that they were doing anything wrong, arrogant and thought that they could do whatever they wanted in 'their house'.

Happened again a week later, including glass bottles being thrown into other gardens. Local security called - made them stop. This is a pickup with four burly guys in it, the Russians not quite as cocky as when dealing with a 45kg woman on her own. They were warned its a residential area, not again; last chance.

You guessed it, a week later the same thing including them drinking heavily in the street. Local security called this time with, for want of a better description, the local head of village (its a town but spilt into areas). This time they were told pack up your st and leave within 24 hours or we will drag all your stuff out into the street.

Russians not happy, moaning they had paid six months rent. Were told 'don't care'; sling your hook within 24hrs.

Heavy handed? - absolutely. Much anti-social behaviour? - not really.


I'll add: couple of years back there appeared a couple of gangs of youths riding round of bikes causing a nuisance, some bag and phone snatches (sound familiar?) This culminated in an army cadet getting stabbed and killed during what was a robbery. He was surrounded by one of the gangs, refused to give over his suff; got murdered for it.

Two weeks later - Chief of Police is on TV and in papers etc. Surrounded by a group of tough looking officers. They had bought this team high powered bikes and Tasers, They had also been sent to Jakarta for 10 days training with some sort of Special Forces group.

He said, you want to ride round in gangs like this? My new team is coming for you. You want to cause trouble - we are going to put you in prison.

Seemed to work. We still get bag snatchers but these are individuals or a pair of guys. Get caught (they often do) and that's 3 to 5 years inside.

We had several groups of Bulgarian ATM skimmers - they had £500 of my money! Stake outs, working with local business and security etc...caught them. 7-9 years and immediate deportation on release plus big fines or more time in prison. Boom!

Edited by jdw100 on Friday 24th January 03:23

As a counter point for Indonesia police. My BIL was found dead under upsetting and suspicious circumstances last year. The police called us up to ask for money to not sell the photos to the press, and as we didn’t, they did. We had to pay for the autopsy, as they weren’t interested in cause of death. And valuables went missing from his apartment while it was ‘taped off’

[jdw100]

wisbech said:

As a counter point for Indonesia police. My BIL was found dead under upsetting and suspicious circumstances last year. The police called us up to ask for money to not sell the photos to the press, and as we didn’t, they did. We had to pay for the autopsy, as they weren’t interested in cause of death. And valuables went missing from his apartment while it was ‘taped off’

As I said - not holding them up as any sort of example of good policing.

I think they are good at keeping crime down, they will go after ATM skimmers and bag snatchers with great vigour but I wouldn't trust them to investigate my death.

Difference for us here is the tight Hindu community. Lots of cases of 'Elders' noting young guys are suddenly flashing some cash; they will report to Police. They are also able to deal with some issues themselves, will sort out arguments etc.

On the Police front I'm really commenting on the community stuff - focusing on trouble makers and being visible.

Also the London scooter stuff, imagine if Met had done what I described above as soon as it had become a problem? Nipped in the bud.

I'd add a lot of criminals here are as thick as pig st. Usual mode of operation is to head back to their home town in Java, Sumba or wherever...where the police easily pick them up.

We did have a murder a few years back. Was, obviously, the guy's ex-driver. He panicked when victim found him so killed the poor man. You guessed it...Police found out where he was from and simply turned up there and waited for him to arrive. Idiot!

[jdw100]

rickygolf83 said:

Sounds like an assertive police force with the backing of their government to do the job they signed up to, and a justice system being able to administer justice

Edited by rickygolf83 on Tuesday 28th January 22:53

See comments above for a more balanced view.

I think also it's cultural. Less alcoholic based violence is one. Also the shame it would bring on your family.

The threat of violence is a factor as well. Mostly polite people but there can be a mob mentality.

We had a very drunk American hit about 20 bikes whilst driving at 5kph over a 6km stretch of road, to get home. Chased, stopped and they absolutely smashed his car up! It was national news.

Caught some bag-snatchers near us a few years back and they put one in a coma.

That kind of event puts people off stealing. Plus, you will go to prison. The ATM stuff, maybe 7 years. Makes people think twice...?