Which Chim to buy
Discussion
If I was buying a Chimaera, which should I consider and why - a MkII or later 400, a 430 or a 450 (I'm not looking for a 500)? I've done all the research on what to look out for, looking to understand owner's views on which is generally considered the best (assuming condition was like-for-like / good on all).
I went for a 450 for the extra power.
The absolute truth is does’nt really matter as 90% of the time you drive within speed limits.
Overall condition would be more important to me now rather than engine size.
If you are new to Tvr the best advice I can give is drive all 3, buy the one that drives the best as an overall package.
Don’t get hung up on engine power, it’s way over rated in my book.
Since meeting up at the local Warwickshire TVR meet many years ago I realised this was the place I should have come too.
Friendly proud owners with usually a mix of super expensive fantastic examples to the more used but good cars.
Here you can get owners views on the cars without prejudice and most will willingly give you a ride out.
Your under no pressure and you get real hands on experienced owners and a damn good look at the cars.
The quality of the car overall and proof it’s been driven regularly would be my interest.
Mk3 look the best but early owners would disagree and I don’t blame them
I’d start with outriggers and work up.
This is not the nightmare people make it out to be and they can easily be repaired. If riggers look rusty they probably are. Consider this when making an offer.
Cheapest scenario as your probably aware is around (£2000 for just rigger replacement, a lot more if you go for a full chassis resto via known experts. Buying one with chassis repaired to a high standard with a good modern covering ( priceless) or usually a lot cheaper than repairing a car unless you can do it yourself so any car with a known solid chassis has to be a huge +
As would be one on decent modern tyres that are not 10 years old with 4000 miles use, those cars often drive terrible, well mine did.
Hope some of this helps.
Basically the most important thing is meet as many owners ( at your local TVR PUB MEET ) as possible and drive / ride their cars first. You’ll be way ahead of the game.
Search for your regional event in Sprint or the TVRCC website, happy Tivvin.
The absolute truth is does’nt really matter as 90% of the time you drive within speed limits.
Overall condition would be more important to me now rather than engine size.
If you are new to Tvr the best advice I can give is drive all 3, buy the one that drives the best as an overall package.
Don’t get hung up on engine power, it’s way over rated in my book.
Since meeting up at the local Warwickshire TVR meet many years ago I realised this was the place I should have come too.
Friendly proud owners with usually a mix of super expensive fantastic examples to the more used but good cars.
Here you can get owners views on the cars without prejudice and most will willingly give you a ride out.
Your under no pressure and you get real hands on experienced owners and a damn good look at the cars.
The quality of the car overall and proof it’s been driven regularly would be my interest.
Mk3 look the best but early owners would disagree and I don’t blame them
I’d start with outriggers and work up.
This is not the nightmare people make it out to be and they can easily be repaired. If riggers look rusty they probably are. Consider this when making an offer.
Cheapest scenario as your probably aware is around (£2000 for just rigger replacement, a lot more if you go for a full chassis resto via known experts. Buying one with chassis repaired to a high standard with a good modern covering ( priceless) or usually a lot cheaper than repairing a car unless you can do it yourself so any car with a known solid chassis has to be a huge +
As would be one on decent modern tyres that are not 10 years old with 4000 miles use, those cars often drive terrible, well mine did.
Hope some of this helps.
Basically the most important thing is meet as many owners ( at your local TVR PUB MEET ) as possible and drive / ride their cars first. You’ll be way ahead of the game.
Search for your regional event in Sprint or the TVRCC website, happy Tivvin.
Edited by Classic Chim on Saturday 18th January 07:50
getholdofme said:
If I was buying a Chimaera, which should I consider and why - a MkII or later 400, a 430 or a 450 (I'm not looking for a 500)? I've done all the research on what to look out for, looking to understand owner's views on which is generally considered the best (assuming condition was like-for-like / good on all).
You also need to consider what type of driver are you, are you someone that like to just cruise along or someone that want's to push on when required!I bought Mk3 450 when faced with a similar dilemma to yourself.
I’d recommend viewing and driving a few examples to build up your knowledge and preference.
I bought my Chimaera and subsequently a Tuscan from TVR specialists whom I found to be very helpful and only too happy to let me have a good look over the cars and test drive them, then to go away and think about before making a decision.
I do think all Chimaeras are very capable, beautiful looking sports cars, but to me, the Mk3 was just sublime.
I’d recommend viewing and driving a few examples to build up your knowledge and preference.
I bought my Chimaera and subsequently a Tuscan from TVR specialists whom I found to be very helpful and only too happy to let me have a good look over the cars and test drive them, then to go away and think about before making a decision.
I do think all Chimaeras are very capable, beautiful looking sports cars, but to me, the Mk3 was just sublime.
There’s no question the mk3 has very good lines and the gel coat usually very smooth for fibreglass. More like the bodies of all the late cars.
The interior although no longer all leather unless specced by owner tends to look the full monty too.
The later Cerbera clocks add to the classy look imho.
It’s all taste though, I happen to like both the front grill and rear end of early cars as it makes them stand out, from the rear you could think my car was a Cerbera
Some probably like that too.
Everything ever learnt went into the later cars but that doesn’t mean it’s been built better. Still a lot to do on some of these even.
Each car on its own merits.
Choosing the right one is easy if you have deep pockets, rather more challenging on a tight budget.
The interior although no longer all leather unless specced by owner tends to look the full monty too.
The later Cerbera clocks add to the classy look imho.
It’s all taste though, I happen to like both the front grill and rear end of early cars as it makes them stand out, from the rear you could think my car was a Cerbera
Some probably like that too.
Everything ever learnt went into the later cars but that doesn’t mean it’s been built better. Still a lot to do on some of these even.
Each car on its own merits.
Choosing the right one is easy if you have deep pockets, rather more challenging on a tight budget.
I've had two 400's and currently have a 500. I was going to go 450 bit just missed out on the one I really wanted.
I ended up buying a fantastic full body off refurbished 500 which is almost a new car in essence. This 500 has been rolling road tested at 320bhp but from the factory are down on power to quoted figures.
The 400's were plenty fast enough for me. The 500 is a bit more maybe rougher with the 400's smoother but all cars are different and all drive so different. I would be so bothered about 400, 450 or 500. Just find and pick the best you can afford. The 450 and especially 500 will hold their money better as rarer. There are quite a few 400's so plenty of choice so are less money to buy and sell. Plenty of rough ones around so be careful, get.an inspection and drive a few.
What is your budget?
I ended up buying a fantastic full body off refurbished 500 which is almost a new car in essence. This 500 has been rolling road tested at 320bhp but from the factory are down on power to quoted figures.
The 400's were plenty fast enough for me. The 500 is a bit more maybe rougher with the 400's smoother but all cars are different and all drive so different. I would be so bothered about 400, 450 or 500. Just find and pick the best you can afford. The 450 and especially 500 will hold their money better as rarer. There are quite a few 400's so plenty of choice so are less money to buy and sell. Plenty of rough ones around so be careful, get.an inspection and drive a few.
What is your budget?
rockits said:
I've had two 400's and currently have a 500. I was going to go 450 bit just missed out on the one I really wanted.
I ended up buying a fantastic full body off refurbished 500 which is almost a new car in essence. This 500 has been rolling road tested at 320bhp but from the factory are down on power to quoted figures.
The 400's were plenty fast enough for me. The 500 is a bit more maybe rougher with the 400's smoother but all cars are different and all drive so different. I would be so bothered about 400, 450 or 500. Just find and pick the best you can afford. The 450 and especially 500 will hold their money better as rarer. There are quite a few 400's so plenty of choice so are less money to buy and sell. Plenty of rough ones around so be careful, get.an inspection and drive a few.
What is your budget?
Do you have a print out of your Dyno Gragh. Sounds spot on. There’s a thread somewhere ( show me your Dyno figures ) or somethimg like that you can add yours too. I find these graphs fascinating to read. Do you know what Dyno and any work the engines had. I ended up buying a fantastic full body off refurbished 500 which is almost a new car in essence. This 500 has been rolling road tested at 320bhp but from the factory are down on power to quoted figures.
The 400's were plenty fast enough for me. The 500 is a bit more maybe rougher with the 400's smoother but all cars are different and all drive so different. I would be so bothered about 400, 450 or 500. Just find and pick the best you can afford. The 450 and especially 500 will hold their money better as rarer. There are quite a few 400's so plenty of choice so are less money to buy and sell. Plenty of rough ones around so be careful, get.an inspection and drive a few.
What is your budget?
O/P get an inspection seems like a good idea unless you are mechanically savvy.
Goodluck
This was the engine rebuild spec/details
Engine TVR 500
Short engine
The short engine consists a re-conditioned tvr 5.0 block, its the small journal variety which
has been cross bolted, the block is checked and machined for line bore accuracies, the deck
heights are matched sides, fully chemically deep cleaned, fitted with new competition cam
bearings and new side core plugs. The crankshaft is a standard tvr 5.0 running 2.3”main
bearings and 2”big end bearings the crankshaft is standard size but polished, The
connecting rods are stock tvr 5.0, the pistons are again stock 5.0 items, with the valve reliefs
for the use of high lift camshafts, the main bearings are made by glyco and the big ends are
clevite, all moving parts are internally balanced. Including the flywheel and front pulley.
Valvetrain and camshaft
The camshaft is a stealth camshaft, the lift is .484 on inlet and .495 on exhaust, duration is
@.0.50 215 inlet and 224 on exhaust, due to my profiles being stolen no more information is
allowed, lifters are competition specification, standard pushrods, reconditioned rocker arms
with new shafts.
Cylinder heads
The cylinder heads are our stage 3 spec, fully ported and polished, valves are stainless steel
with waisted stems, inlets are 1.630” exhaust is 1.4”, guides are shortened and bulleted,
combustion chambers all matched to within .2cc, overall chamber size is 31cc giving a total
compression ratio of 10-3, guides are fitted with the neoprene seals and double valve
springs fitted, both head faces are skimmed.
Fasteners and gaskets
The head gaskets are a competition spec gasket .040” thick all other gaskets are factory
oem land rover. The head bolts are our own spec bolt, comprising of a high tensile metal and
custom washers, all other bolts are factory landrover. Serpentine front cover fitted with new
oil pump gears, helix competition clutch, fully lightened flywheel.
Engine TVR 500
Short engine
The short engine consists a re-conditioned tvr 5.0 block, its the small journal variety which
has been cross bolted, the block is checked and machined for line bore accuracies, the deck
heights are matched sides, fully chemically deep cleaned, fitted with new competition cam
bearings and new side core plugs. The crankshaft is a standard tvr 5.0 running 2.3”main
bearings and 2”big end bearings the crankshaft is standard size but polished, The
connecting rods are stock tvr 5.0, the pistons are again stock 5.0 items, with the valve reliefs
for the use of high lift camshafts, the main bearings are made by glyco and the big ends are
clevite, all moving parts are internally balanced. Including the flywheel and front pulley.
Valvetrain and camshaft
The camshaft is a stealth camshaft, the lift is .484 on inlet and .495 on exhaust, duration is
@.0.50 215 inlet and 224 on exhaust, due to my profiles being stolen no more information is
allowed, lifters are competition specification, standard pushrods, reconditioned rocker arms
with new shafts.
Cylinder heads
The cylinder heads are our stage 3 spec, fully ported and polished, valves are stainless steel
with waisted stems, inlets are 1.630” exhaust is 1.4”, guides are shortened and bulleted,
combustion chambers all matched to within .2cc, overall chamber size is 31cc giving a total
compression ratio of 10-3, guides are fitted with the neoprene seals and double valve
springs fitted, both head faces are skimmed.
Fasteners and gaskets
The head gaskets are a competition spec gasket .040” thick all other gaskets are factory
oem land rover. The head bolts are our own spec bolt, comprising of a high tensile metal and
custom washers, all other bolts are factory landrover. Serpentine front cover fitted with new
oil pump gears, helix competition clutch, fully lightened flywheel.
TR4man said:
I bought Mk3 450 when faced with a similar dilemma to yourself.
I’d recommend viewing and driving a few examples to build up your knowledge and preference.
I bought my Chimaera and subsequently a Tuscan from TVR specialists whom I found to be very helpful and only too happy to let me have a good look over the cars and test drive them, then to go away and think about before making a decision.
I do think all Chimaeras are very capable, beautiful looking sports cars, but to me, the Mk3 was just sublime.
I also rate the Mk3, as born out by the way I've retro fitted many of it's development improvements on my early Mk2, it's worth remembering the Chimaera was in production for the best part of 10 years and was also the model TVR sold in the greatest numbers over the longest period... by a considerable margin too! As a consiquence the Chimaera was the one TVR model that actually benefited from years and years of true on road development and extensive durability testing.I’d recommend viewing and driving a few examples to build up your knowledge and preference.
I bought my Chimaera and subsequently a Tuscan from TVR specialists whom I found to be very helpful and only too happy to let me have a good look over the cars and test drive them, then to go away and think about before making a decision.
I do think all Chimaeras are very capable, beautiful looking sports cars, but to me, the Mk3 was just sublime.
TVR were definitely running a program of constant development with the Chimaera and you can clearly see this in the way things evolved with the model, being the last of the breed it stands to reason the Mk3 benefited from all of these little refinements and improvements TVR came up with over the 10 years to make the car better and better.
With a Mk3 you get all the improvements that mostly appeared with the advent of the Mk2 Chimaera, these include cosmetic/styling improvements, BW T5 gearbox, BTR Diff, bigger brakes, power steering and air conditioning as options ect ect.
Plus the following:
1. A better fitting boot lid that opens vertically fitted on better designed hinges
2. The better looking faired headlights that contain Mk1 Golf sealed headlight units eliminating the fast corroding reflectors of earlier cars
3. Better body finnish and panel fit especially door alignment
4. Better more supportive seats from the Cerbera
5. A better Bosch wiper motor fitted in a place where its wrring doesnt get drowned in rain water
6. A gearbox that finally had the correct tailhousing removing the need for the TVR gear linkage which wears (thin wall nylon bushes) causing play and so imprecise gear changes
7. 16" front wheels instead of 15", having 16" front wheels allow for a wider choice of tyres and big brake conversions become much easier too
8. The 450 engine usally cross bolted, more torque than the 400 but smoother than the 500 and not far behind it on horse power if a set of 500 heads are fitted
9. A chassis where TVR had finally started to learn how to appy powder coat without it peeling off within just a few years.... still not brilliant though!
10. A rubber doughnut behind the steering wheel boss for a bit more crash safety, hardly an air bag but better than nothing
11. Stronger anti roll bar brackets on the rear wishbones, earlier ones just werent strong enough so cracked causing odd/dangerous handling
I'm sure there are a host of other little improvements I've forgoten but essentially here are 11 good reasons to buy the Mk3 then?, well yes and no, at the end of the day they're all very monor 'enhancements' really and a Mk3 is still a TVR so was still put together in a rush. The wiring was still poor and now well understood issues such as the Meta security system causing unreliable engine starting persisted as TVR were still wiring it incorrectly rignt to the end, TVR also fitted the ancient Lucas 14CUX system rignt to the end of Chimaera production, this when the Range Rovers and Discoveries being built at the same time had long benefited from the far superior engine management systems that followed.
A Mk3 will always command a premium as people know you get all the above improvements and the cars are naturally younger too, however as others have said buying on condition is way more important than age, variant (Mk1/2/3), and engine size. Saying that the ideal would be a Mk3 for the right money with a good chassis thats had a better engine management system (MBE, Emerald ect), and a new security system professionally installed. If it also came further improved with the latest Mk4 Bilsteins and a Brembo big brake upgrade these would be a bonus too, I say this because along with my engine management upgrade these are without question the best things I've done to improve the driving experience of my early Mk2 Chimaera.
The OP should also keep in mind that paying a bit more for a carefully and well improved Chimaera as I've described would invariably work out cheaper over time, in any form Mk1 to Mk3 a Chimaera is simple car that while fundimentally a fantastic design did come with considerable room for improvement. As such they all beg to be 'driver developed' so tend attract hands-on owners who enjoy the oportunity to play at being a development engineer, and unlike more sophistaced and intensively developed cars of the same period it's not too challenging or costly to impliment real steps forward in drivability, reliability and every day usabability.
If maintaining, improving and building a relationship with your hobby car is your thing then there's litrally nothing more rewarding than the Chimaera ownership experience, on the other hand if you're the kind of guy who wants tutonic build quality and Germanic reliability straight out of the box then a Porsche would make a far less friustrating purchase.
Hopefully I havent put you off with that last statement and I wish you good luck with your search for the right Chimaera
.
rockits said:
Yes, I believe it is. No idea if it is good or not.
I think the idea behind the whole refurb of the car completed for Mark from Steve D and V8D was to keep it as original and as stock Chimeara 500 as possible
Looks pretty good to me. Is this on CUX Ignition. Marvellous. 5K that lot there surely. I think the idea behind the whole refurb of the car completed for Mark from Steve D and V8D was to keep it as original and as stock Chimeara 500 as possible
Bet that feels lively
ChimpOnGas said:
I also rate the Mk3, as born out by the way I've retro fitted many of it's development improvements on my early Mk2, it's worth remembering the Chimaera was in production for the best part of 10 years and was also the model TVR sold in the greatest numbers over the longest period... by a considerable margin too! As a consiquence the Chimaera was the one TVR model that actually benefited from years and years of true on road development and extensive durability testing.
TVR were definitely running a program of constant development with the Chimaera and you can clearly see this in the way things evolved with the model, being the last of the breed it stands to reason the Mk3 benefited from all of these little refinements and improvements TVR came up with over the 10 years to make the car better and better.
With a Mk3 you get all the improvements that mostly appeared with the advent of the Mk2 Chimaera, these include cosmetic/styling improvements, BW T5 gearbox, BTR Diff, bigger brakes, power steering and air conditioning as options ect ect.
Plus the following:
1. A better fitting boot lid that opens vertically fitted on better designed hinges
2. The better looking faired headlights that contain Mk1 Golf sealed headlight units eliminating the fast corroding reflectors of earlier cars
3. Better body finnish and panel fit especially door alignment
4. Better more supportive seats from the Cerbera
5. A better Bosch wiper motor fitted in a place where its wrring doesnt get drowned in rain water
6. A gearbox that finally had the correct tailhousing removing the need for the TVR gear linkage which wears (thin wall nylon bushes) causing play and so imprecise gear changes
7. 16" front wheels instead of 15", having 16" front wheels allow for a wider choice of tyres and big brake conversions become much easier too
8. The 450 engine usally cross bolted, more torque than the 400 but smoother than the 500 and not far behind it on horse power if a set of 500 heads are fitted
9. A chassis where TVR had finally started to learn how to appy powder coat without it peeling off within just a few years.... still not brilliant though!
10. A rubber doughnut behind the steering wheel boss for a bit more crash safety, hardly an air bag but better than nothing
11. Stronger anti roll bar brackets on the rear wishbones, earlier ones just werent strong enough so cracked causing odd/dangerous handling
I'm sure there are a host of other little improvements I've forgoten but essentially here are 11 good reasons to buy the Mk3 then?, well yes and no, at the end of the day they're all very monor 'enhancements' really and a Mk3 is still a TVR so was still put together in a rush. The wiring was still poor and now well understood issues such as the Meta security system causing unreliable engine starting persisted as TVR were still wiring it incorrectly rignt to the end, TVR also fitted the ancient Lucas 14CUX system rignt to the end of Chimaera production, this when the Range Rovers and Discoveries being built at the same time had long benefited from the far superior engine management systems that followed.
A Mk3 will always command a premium as people know you get all the above improvements and the cars are naturally younger too, however as others have said buying on condition is way more important than age, variant (Mk1/2/3), and engine size. Saying that the ideal would be a Mk3 for the right money with a good chassis thats had a better engine management system (MBE, Emerald ect), and a new security system professionally installed. If it also came further improved with the latest Mk4 Bilsteins and a Brembo big brake upgrade these would be a bonus too, I say this because along with my engine management upgrade these are without question the best things I've done to improve the driving experience of my early Mk2 Chimaera.
The OP should also keep in mind that paying a bit more for a carefully and well improved Chimaera as I've described would invariably work out cheaper over time, in any form Mk1 to Mk3 a Chimaera is simple car that while fundimentally a fantastic design did come with considerable room for improvement. As such they all beg to be 'driver developed' so tend attract hands-on owners who enjoy the oportunity to play at being a development engineer, and unlike more sophistaced and intensively developed cars of the same period it's not too challenging or costly to impliment real steps forward in drivability, reliability and every day usabability.
If maintaining, improving and building a relationship with your hobby car is your thing then there's litrally nothing more rewarding than the Chimaera ownership experience, on the other hand if you're the kind of guy who wants tutonic build quality and Germanic reliability straight out of the box then a Porsche would make a far less friustrating purchase.
Hopefully I havent put you off with that last statement and I wish you good luck with your search for the right Chimaera
.
Yes mine has the rubber donut, I assumed they all had that. Learn something new every day on here. TVR were definitely running a program of constant development with the Chimaera and you can clearly see this in the way things evolved with the model, being the last of the breed it stands to reason the Mk3 benefited from all of these little refinements and improvements TVR came up with over the 10 years to make the car better and better.
With a Mk3 you get all the improvements that mostly appeared with the advent of the Mk2 Chimaera, these include cosmetic/styling improvements, BW T5 gearbox, BTR Diff, bigger brakes, power steering and air conditioning as options ect ect.
Plus the following:
1. A better fitting boot lid that opens vertically fitted on better designed hinges
2. The better looking faired headlights that contain Mk1 Golf sealed headlight units eliminating the fast corroding reflectors of earlier cars
3. Better body finnish and panel fit especially door alignment
4. Better more supportive seats from the Cerbera
5. A better Bosch wiper motor fitted in a place where its wrring doesnt get drowned in rain water
6. A gearbox that finally had the correct tailhousing removing the need for the TVR gear linkage which wears (thin wall nylon bushes) causing play and so imprecise gear changes
7. 16" front wheels instead of 15", having 16" front wheels allow for a wider choice of tyres and big brake conversions become much easier too
8. The 450 engine usally cross bolted, more torque than the 400 but smoother than the 500 and not far behind it on horse power if a set of 500 heads are fitted
9. A chassis where TVR had finally started to learn how to appy powder coat without it peeling off within just a few years.... still not brilliant though!
10. A rubber doughnut behind the steering wheel boss for a bit more crash safety, hardly an air bag but better than nothing
11. Stronger anti roll bar brackets on the rear wishbones, earlier ones just werent strong enough so cracked causing odd/dangerous handling
I'm sure there are a host of other little improvements I've forgoten but essentially here are 11 good reasons to buy the Mk3 then?, well yes and no, at the end of the day they're all very monor 'enhancements' really and a Mk3 is still a TVR so was still put together in a rush. The wiring was still poor and now well understood issues such as the Meta security system causing unreliable engine starting persisted as TVR were still wiring it incorrectly rignt to the end, TVR also fitted the ancient Lucas 14CUX system rignt to the end of Chimaera production, this when the Range Rovers and Discoveries being built at the same time had long benefited from the far superior engine management systems that followed.
A Mk3 will always command a premium as people know you get all the above improvements and the cars are naturally younger too, however as others have said buying on condition is way more important than age, variant (Mk1/2/3), and engine size. Saying that the ideal would be a Mk3 for the right money with a good chassis thats had a better engine management system (MBE, Emerald ect), and a new security system professionally installed. If it also came further improved with the latest Mk4 Bilsteins and a Brembo big brake upgrade these would be a bonus too, I say this because along with my engine management upgrade these are without question the best things I've done to improve the driving experience of my early Mk2 Chimaera.
The OP should also keep in mind that paying a bit more for a carefully and well improved Chimaera as I've described would invariably work out cheaper over time, in any form Mk1 to Mk3 a Chimaera is simple car that while fundimentally a fantastic design did come with considerable room for improvement. As such they all beg to be 'driver developed' so tend attract hands-on owners who enjoy the oportunity to play at being a development engineer, and unlike more sophistaced and intensively developed cars of the same period it's not too challenging or costly to impliment real steps forward in drivability, reliability and every day usabability.
If maintaining, improving and building a relationship with your hobby car is your thing then there's litrally nothing more rewarding than the Chimaera ownership experience, on the other hand if you're the kind of guy who wants tutonic build quality and Germanic reliability straight out of the box then a Porsche would make a far less friustrating purchase.
Hopefully I havent put you off with that last statement and I wish you good luck with your search for the right Chimaera
.
Classic Chim said:
Looks pretty good to me. Is this on CUX Ignition. Marvellous. 5K that lot there surely.
Bet that feels lively
It is lively indeed but not had much of a chance to drive it much yet as bought it after the summer had finished. It had mismatched tyres on the rear on the drive home after previous owner had a puncture which which interesting and scary. Resolved now.Bet that feels lively
Need to decide if it is a keeper as it is on original CUX ignition. If I keep it I may replace the CUX with a newer/better system.
My other option is to sell this one and buy Mac's old car but really not sure what to do. Need to drive this red 500 a bit really as it is a lovely example.
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