Other driver pranged barrier while overtaking.

[Adrian E]

OP - can’t see this suggested amongst all the arguing. When you contact bus company, make a subject access request giving your wife’s name and reg details, location, time. Doesn’t matter if you don’t have bus driver’s details - bus will be live tracked

Mate did this recently after getting mown off his bike at a roundabout (he was waiting for a gap and bus pulled out onto roundabout as he was pulling away without seeing him - very nearly went under FNS wheel!)

Within a week he had edited footage from about 5 cameras around the bus from some time prior to the impact.

It will helpfully show behaviour of following vehicles and given the rear facing camera is likely to be fairly high you’ll see manner of driving by both following drivers and it’ll probably be clear enough to show if your wife did an over shoulder/mirror check before pulling out

[scottos]

numtumfutunch said:

Scenario for those saying its the OPs wifes fault:

Im driving my (chipped) 335d on a tortuous B road with minimal overtaking opportunities
A queue of traffic has built up behind someone in an MX5 who cant go very fast
I am car 5 in the queue

I know the road better than the 4 losers Im stuck behind and when it opens onto a mile long straight they dont immediately realise they can overtake the lead car

Wahay - this is my chance and I give it the beans as I hit the apex of the bend opening onto the straight bit

Unfortunately car 2 pulls out to overtake just as I draw level and I take avoiding action and crash into a barrier

Who is liable?

Cheers

Something similar happened to me 5 years ago but there was no way i was doing any off roading to avoid, i moved over as far as i could without going off the road and beeped/ slammed on but they carried on regardless and went into the side of my car, carried on going down the whole side of it then clipped the front of car number 1 when they pulled back in.

It went down as 100% their fault. Funnily enough the first guy i spoke to at my insurance was an idiot and as soon as he realised it was a single carriage way road basically said it was probably my fault and i shouldn't have been over taking on a single carriageway road, when i asked why not he couldnt answer. Next time i called i got someone who knew what they were on about.

[grassomaniac]

Graveworm said:

A reasonable scenario is a queue of traffic following the bus. 4x4 somewhere in that queue wants to overtake vehicles, there are no intermediate gaps so needs enough road to pass everything up to and including the bus. 1 mile straight nothing coming the other way pulls out and starts to pass with plenty of room.
Now a good driver might see the empty lay-by half a mile up the road and factor that in, a better driver would realise that it is a bus stop and make the link to the lead vehicle being a bus.
It's a very good driver that would think, when the bus pulls in it probably won't pull in fully and a vehicle might not be paying attention and pull out on me. To do that before starting the overtake would be very good indeed. If they realise that possibility, once committed on the offside and passing the queue, the driver finds themselves having to choose between definitely doing something wrong and forcing their way back in, braking on the offside and looking for a way back in (which is the right thing to do, but few honestly do that) or carrying on with the overtake as the least bad option, as there are several what ifs that have to happen before it goes wrong.
The advice has always been and technically still remains use headlight flashes and or the horn in anything like this to mitigate the risk; but these days, because of constant misuse, it is just as likely to spark some unpredictable actions or road rage, worse than what you are trying to mitigate.
I still can't see anywhere that the OP's wife isn't liable in some way, the 4x4s liability will depend on what they did or didn't do. Going back to my first post, the problem for the OP's wife is that they say they didn't see the 4x4, so the only account of what the 4x4 did, will be what they say they did and if it is remotely credible, that's what happened. Not seeing them is always going to be problem as, objectively, a competent and careful driver would see them.

This is similar to what I was thinking, which is why I said it isn't the OP's wife's fault but it also isn't the 4x4 drivers fault.

That said, buses are usually quite easy to spot even with a long cue of cars and have very clear indicators, which is why I don't understand why the 4x4 driver went for the overtake. It certainly isn't one I'd attempt in that situation.

[Torquey]

roadsmash said:

numtumfutunch said:

Scenario for those saying its the OPs wifes fault:

Im driving my (chipped) 335d on a tortuous B road with minimal overtaking opportunities
A queue of traffic has built up behind someone in an MX5 who cant go very fast
I am car 5 in the queue

I know the road better than the 4 losers Im stuck behind and when it opens onto a mile long straight they dont immediately realise they can overtake the lead car

Wahay - this is my chance and I give it the beans as I hit the apex of the bend opening onto the straight bit

Unfortunately car 2 pulls out to overtake just as I draw level and I take avoiding action and crash into a barrier

Who is liable?

Cheers

Car 2.

However, the OP’s wife’s situation is different because there is a stationary bus blocking the road somewhat.

A sensible driver would not overtake a car that is about to go around a bus.

That is the key and vital difference which puts blame on to the 4x4 driver as well.

meatballs said:

Then you are mistaken. Second hand account passed on from someone who didn't even see the other vehicle.

This is PistonHeads. Nothing on here is first hand.

That’s the idea of a discussion forum.

Regardless of it being second or third hand, there is enough information here to ascertain this will be a 50/50.

Unbelievable.

So there is difference between overtaking a stationary object and moving object?

Is the 4x4 driver supposed to analyse whether the bus is moving slowly or stopped before proceeding- and stop suddenly should the bus stop?

As Norfolk said earlier; show us any legislation from the HC that points towards the 4x4 driver being wrong and I'll change my opinion.

[Solocle]

Torquey said:

roadsmash said:

numtumfutunch said:

Scenario for those saying its the OPs wifes fault:

Im driving my (chipped) 335d on a tortuous B road with minimal overtaking opportunities
A queue of traffic has built up behind someone in an MX5 who cant go very fast
I am car 5 in the queue

I know the road better than the 4 losers Im stuck behind and when it opens onto a mile long straight they dont immediately realise they can overtake the lead car

Wahay - this is my chance and I give it the beans as I hit the apex of the bend opening onto the straight bit

Unfortunately car 2 pulls out to overtake just as I draw level and I take avoiding action and crash into a barrier

Who is liable?

Cheers

Car 2.

However, the OP’s wife’s situation is different because there is a stationary bus blocking the road somewhat.

A sensible driver would not overtake a car that is about to go around a bus.

That is the key and vital difference which puts blame on to the 4x4 driver as well.

meatballs said:

Then you are mistaken. Second hand account passed on from someone who didn't even see the other vehicle.

This is PistonHeads. Nothing on here is first hand.

That’s the idea of a discussion forum.

Regardless of it being second or third hand, there is enough information here to ascertain this will be a 50/50.

Unbelievable.

So there is difference between overtaking a stationary object and moving object?

Is the 4x4 driver supposed to analyse whether the bus is moving slowly or stopped before proceeding- and stop suddenly should the bus stop?

As Norfolk said earlier; show us any legislation from the HC that points towards the 4x4 driver being wrong and I'll change my opinion.

HC said:

DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
....
when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down

There's a difference between overtaking a queue that's following a moving vehicle, and overtaking a queue that is approaching a stationary obstacle (and thus forcing them to slow down).

As for the scenario - I've executed two vehicle overtakes before on a bicycle! In one instance a car following a tractor too closely to see past - in a 60 zone. I'd established that he wasn't going to overtake before going myself. In fact, not only did I not slow him down, I sped him up, as he followed me through (an action which I had anticipated).

The second time, I overtook two cars queuing behind other cyclists on a bendy B road in Devon. Again, I'd been watching long enough to establish that an overtake wasn't going to happen.

To the OP's situation, I'd say that it probably makes a difference - did they cross the white line? If not, the 4x4 was either not giving enough space during their overtake, or overreacted. If they did cross the white line, a mirror check would have been eminently reasonable.

[Sticks.]

grassomaniac said:

That said, buses are usually quite easy to spot even with a long cue of cars and have very clear indicators, which is why I don't understand why the 4x4 driver went for the overtake. It certainly isn't one I'd attempt in that situation.

Indeed, particularly as what was causing the delay (the bus) had pulled off and so overtaking was no longer clearly necessary. As I was taught, 1st rule of overtaking, is it necessary?

[Dont like rolls]

Solocle said:

There's a difference between overtaking a queue that's following a moving vehicle, and overtaking a queue that is approaching a stationary obstacle (and thus forcing them to slow down)..

Nope, you have made assumptions to qualify your point.

The Bus pulled in into a Bus Stop (A single Post ?) came to a stop (? or was sufficiently over to tempt the swing out as there was no oncoming traffic AHEAD) with the following driver then pulling out to avoid a JUST STOPPED bus. \There was suddenly a 4x4 in the lane she pulled into !

Was the Bus stopped or indicating prior to the 4x4 going to over take ? A very good chance not.
You cannot be sure that the Bus even indicated prior to the overtake starting or a Single Post Bus Stop is visible.

What we do know is the driver pulled out of lane forcing the 4x4 that was there to crash.

[Durzel]

numtumfutunch said:

Scenario for those saying its the OPs wifes fault:

Im driving my (chipped) 335d on a tortuous B road with minimal overtaking opportunities
A queue of traffic has built up behind someone in an MX5 who cant go very fast
I am car 5 in the queue

I know the road better than the 4 losers Im stuck behind and when it opens onto a mile long straight they dont immediately realise they can overtake the lead car

Wahay - this is my chance and I give it the beans as I hit the apex of the bend opening onto the straight bit

Unfortunately car 2 pulls out to overtake just as I draw level and I take avoiding action and crash into a barrier

Who is liable?

Cheers

Car 2.

The major difference between this and the OP's wife scenario is that the bus pulled in, presumably to drop off/pick up people.

A competent driver in the queue behind ought to realise that the car behind the bus is not going to wait there until its completed that process, which is likely to take several minutes. If the bus has actually tried to pull in and left only part of it still on the road, this would tend to invite the following car to pass it. Hesitant drivers might pause before driving around it, but I'd wager that almost everyone will attempt that pass.

No one was there so none of us know the exact point at which the OP's wife pulled out. Since the 4x4 drove off the road to avoid hitting her one can assume it was when he was very close, or side by side. That said, we also don't know the timeline. If the OP's wife was sat there for like 20 seconds or so, and someone pulled out to overtake everyone, I'd have more sympathy for that person because they likely did not think the car behind the bus was ever going to pull out. If, on the other hand, the 4x4 basically gave the OP's wife no time at all before deciding that it was his opportunity to get past all of them, then I'd say that is on him for not reading the obvious scenario in front of him.

[Sticks.]

Dont like rolls said:

Nope, you have made assumptions to qualify your point.

The Bus pulled in into a Bus Stop (A single Post ?) came to a stop (? or was sufficiently over to tempt the swing out as there was no oncoming traffic AHEAD) with the following driver then pulling out to avoid a JUST STOPPED bus. \There was suddenly a 4x4 in the lane she pulled into !

Was the Bus stopped or indicating prior to the 4x4 going to over take ? A very good chance not.
You cannot be sure that the Bus even indicated prior to the overtake starting or a Single Post Bus Stop is visible.

What we do know is the driver pulled out of lane forcing the 4x4 that was there to crash.

Indicating or not, buses do slow down before pulling in. I suggest the 4x4 driver saw the queue slowing behind it, saw this as his chance to go for it, should've anticipated that the bus might not pull in fully and the lead car would have to go around it. Basic mistake imho.

[popeyewhite]

Sticks. said:

Indicating or not, buses do slow down before pulling in. I suggest the 4x4 driver saw the queue slowing behind it, saw this as his chance to go for it, should've anticipated that the bus might not pull in fully and the lead car would have to go around it. Basic mistake imho.

Into the realms of the surreal now.
Perhaps we can extend the 4x4 driver's guilt through lack of anticipation and suggest he should have known he was going to get stuck behind the bus and simply started his journey earlier?

[Graveworm]

Sticks. said:

Indicating or not, buses do slow down before pulling in. I suggest the 4x4 driver saw the queue slowing behind it, saw this as his chance to go for it, should've anticipated that the bus might not pull in fully and the lead car would have to go around it. Basic mistake imho.

And if the car she forced into the barrier was coming the other way, should they also have anticipated that the lead car would "have" to go around it? Would that also be a basic mistake. Pulling out no matter for what reason, puts the onus on you to do so safely and not to cause any vehicle to change course or slow down. Others may take some blame for not accounting for the possibility of this mistake, but that doesn't transfer all the liability.

Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 22 January 11:20

[hman]

50/50 at best and at worst 100% car overtaking busses fault.

Based on similar occurrences I have had experience of - one which seems relevant is where a driver nosed out of a t-junction causing an unseen (due to parked cars) car coming from their left to swerve and hit the curb damaging wheel and suspension. 100% driver entering T junctions fault even though there was no contact between vehicles.

Edited by hman on Wednesday 22 January 11:31

[sibriers]

Graveworm said:

Sticks. said:

Indicating or not, buses do slow down before pulling in. I suggest the 4x4 driver saw the queue slowing behind it, saw this as his chance to go for it, should've anticipated that the bus might not pull in fully and the lead car would have to go around it. Basic mistake imho.

And if the car she forced into the barrier was coming the other way, should they also have anticipated that the lead car would "have" to go around it? Would thar also be a basic mistake. pulling out no matter for what reason puts the onus on you to do so safely and not to cause any vehicle to change course or slow down.

Obviously Graveworm! - though there are crucial differences in the 2 situations, an oncoming driver should be able to anticipate that the car behind the bus might well nip round in order to continue. Not that it's right but that it's a possibility - it shouldn't come as a shock for that oncoming driver.

The 4x4 at least had visibility of the situation behind the bus, unlike the hypothetical oncoming driver. If I were in the 4x4's position I'd be anticipating that the car in front might make a move, but I'd be bricking it that a bus passenger might alight, see nothing coming towards them and try and cross the road in front of the bus. Would that be 100% the pedestrian's fault for crossing the road in that situation?

[blueg33]

Meltham Terrier said:

I think fault lies with the 4x4 driver, he was the one overtaking therefore should have assessed the road ahead and any risk posed before attempting the overtake.

100% not your wife’s fault, would definitely make sure she has thought about how she explains the incident to the insurance.

Always the person attempting the overtake has to be clear they can safely carry out the manoeuvre without impeding any other user.

They know they’ve fked up but looking to blame someone else.

Edited by Meltham Terrier on Monday 20th January 21:28

I dont think thats correct. Pretty sure highway code says that when you pull out to overtake you should check that nothing is overtaking you, similar to when you turn right, you should check nothing is overtaking you.

[Graveworm]

sibriers said:

Obviously Graveworm! - though there are crucial differences in the 2 situations, an oncoming driver should be able to anticipate that the car behind the bus might well nip round in order to continue. Not that it's right but that it's a possibility - it shouldn't come as a shock for that oncoming driver.

The 4x4 at least had visibility of the situation behind the bus, unlike the hypothetical oncoming driver. If I were in the 4x4's position I'd be anticipating that the car in front might make a move, but I'd be bricking it that a bus passenger might alight, see nothing coming towards them and try and cross the road in front of the bus. Would that be 100% the pedestrian's fault for crossing the road in that situation?

Very little is 100 percent anyone's fault. But as I said hard to see how the car pulling out is somehow blameless because the driver did not do enough take their shortcomings into account. You paint a picture of a bus that had been stopped for some time. That's not what the OP indicates. The bus stop was half a mile along a one mile straight, as it stopped the Ops wife pulled out. We have no idea when the 4x4 started it's overtake. It was alongside as she "Nipped" out and it doesn't sound like it was directly behind her prior to that, so likely overtaking, for most of that half mile, in typical traffic it must have intended to include the bus in that overtake before any of this unfolded. Half a mile even at 60 is 30 seconds so that's some anticipation requirements for a "Basic" error.

Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 22 January 11:50

[speedking31]

PF62 said:

... the "bus in front of my wife pulled into the bus stop but was still sticking out a wee bit", then if the 4x4 driver was competent and had stupidly decided to overtaking they would be passing the other cars at a sufficient distance that one of them moving out slightly would make no difference.

The trouble is that a "wee bit" to a woman is an "enormous length" to a 4x4 driver

[sibriers]

Graveworm said:

sibriers said:

Obviously Graveworm! - though there are crucial differences in the 2 situations, an oncoming driver should be able to anticipate that the car behind the bus might well nip round in order to continue. Not that it's right but that it's a possibility - it shouldn't come as a shock for that oncoming driver.

The 4x4 at least had visibility of the situation behind the bus, unlike the hypothetical oncoming driver. If I were in the 4x4's position I'd be anticipating that the car in front might make a move, but I'd be bricking it that a bus passenger might alight, see nothing coming towards them and try and cross the road in front of the bus. Would that be 100% the pedestrian's fault for crossing the road in that situation?

Very little is 100 percent anyone's fault. But as I said hard to see how the car pulling out is somehow blameless because the driver did not do enough take their shortcomings into account. You paint a picture of a bus that had been stopped for some time. That's not what the OP indicates. The bus stop was half a mile along a one mile straight, as it stopped the Ops wife pulled out. We have no idea when the 4x4 started it's overtake. It was alongside as she "Nipped" out and it doesn't sound like it was directly behind her prior to that, so likely overtaking, for most of that half mile, in typical traffic it must have intended to include the bus in that overtake before any of this unfolded. Half a mile even at 60 is 30 seconds so that's some anticipation requirements for a "Basic" error.

Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 22 January 11:50

I agree the OP's wife isn't blameless - never said she was. Also said nothing about how long the bus was stopped..

I can't believe that the 4x4 could have been alongside her when she started moving out (however far that may have been) and reacted quick enough to avoid hitting her car but going too fast to avoid hitting a barrier - doesn't add up to me.

Seems much more likely that the 1st car slowed behind the bus as it pulled in and the 4x4 was further back, maybe doing close to the speed limit. Sees things slowing and decides to go for an overtake on slowing or stopped vehicles while potentially doing 60. If that's how it went down, then it's downright dangerous behaviour on the 4x4's part in my mind - at that speed difference there's little time to react to a situation like this, no matter how in the wrong the 1st car was.

Without further details from the now absent OP this is all just opinions based on incomplete information.. Kinda fun guessing game but I'm not sure we're ever going to get the answer!

[Hol]

MB140 said:

Hol said:

Stuff

I do wonder if the responses around who is to blame would be identical if outcome swapped and the wife crashed into the bus, because her overtake was blocked by the 4x4?

Stuff

Edited by Hol on Tuesday 21st January 11:51

Simply put she should be driving with enough gap to be able to stop before hitting the bus. If she can’t she’s going either

a) Too fast to stop or
b) tailgating the bus to close

That isn't the question I was asking, but obvious point if it was just the Op's wife and the bus.

[Hol]

Show of posts....(+1's)


Who else would like to see a street view of the road in question??

[Sticks.]

sibriers said:

I agree the OP's wife isn't blameless - never said she was. Also said nothing about how long the bus was stopped..

I can't believe that the 4x4 could have been alongside her when she started moving out (however far that may have been) and reacted quick enough to avoid hitting her car but going too fast to avoid hitting a barrier - doesn't add up to me.

Seems much more likely that the 1st car slowed behind the bus as it pulled in and the 4x4 was further back, maybe doing close to the speed limit. Sees things slowing and decides to go for an overtake on slowing or stopped vehicles while potentially doing 60. If that's how it went down, then it's downright dangerous behaviour on the 4x4's part in my mind - at that speed difference there's little time to react to a situation like this, no matter how in the wrong the 1st car was.

Without further details from the now absent OP this is all just opinions based on incomplete information.. Kinda fun guessing game but I'm not sure we're ever going to get the answer!

This, and your earlier post, is what I was getting at. The 4x4 made assumptions based on what he thought the cars ahead should do, rather than were likely to do.

Just last Monday, slowing traffic in a 40, car 1 slows and pulls left into petrol station, car 2 opted to swing out round him rather than wait no more than a few seconds. Not suggesting OP's wife did that but the point is it's not uncommon, and easily anticipated. As car 4 I'd be taking a risk to overtake there.

And as I said. Once the bus had gone, overtaking may well have been unnecessary.