E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?

[2ZZ Top]

I disagree that assisted vs powered is a red herring. I think it's a fundamental difference. Requiring physical effort to go faster and physical endurance to maintain top speed for any distance is a limiting factor. Devices which can do 15.5mph for 40 miles while you simply stand on them are a new class of vehicle requiring no skill or effort.

Also, it's not easy for Joe Public to tell from looking or how they are ridden whether a bike is electrically assisted or not. There's very little difference in how e-bikes and pedal bikes are used. There's no need for legislation for e-bikes beyond any that already exists for pedal bikes. We already have dedicated cycle lanes and infrastructure, highway code guidance, school cycle training schemes and a great deal more support and understanding around how cycles should be used. If you see a cyclist nearby, you can be fairly sure of where they're going, how fast they're likely to be travelling, how much space to give them, etc. We've been programming ourselves with this knowledge for all our lives. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't ridden a bike at some point in their lives, and has a good reference for what bikes are all about.

The fact that the papers aren't full of "Youth steals handbag and gets away on e-bike" is a good indicator that not much has changed in the world of pedal bikes as a result of electrical assistance taking off.

E-scooters have none of the existing basis for use, either in terms of infrastructure, highway code guidance, road signage or dedicate lanes, public understanding of what to expect from a rider, mental frame of reference from personal experience etc. It's a new paradigm. There has to be some sort of educational element to a responsible rollout. I can't think of anything easier than a theory test and registration. It's infinitely less complicated than managing a covid vaccine rollout, for example.

I think we all know that even when legal, e-scooters are going to be badly misused, and there will be accidents. They'll be ridden on pavements. They'll nip through narrow gaps to avoid the police. They'll be ridden everywhere at 15.5mph, even when walking pace would be more appropriate. They will be a pain in the neck to everyone around, and all owners, including the very sensible ones, will be seen in a bad light until the dust settles and it becomes clear that there's a difference between legal and illegal scooter use. Registration for drones came into effect to deal with similar issues; people flying where they shouldn't, with no awareness of regulations or safety issues. I don't know any drone owners who complained about the new scheme. All see it as a good thing, which might help keep the idiots in check, even just a bit. I see registration of scooters the same way.

[NGee]

Dog Star said:

Lord Marylebone said:

The fact that you just have to slowly turn the pedals with no effort to 'activate' the motor on an e-bike, is in reality, a farce and no different to pressing a throttle button on a scooter.

Absolute rubbish.

It's always good when someone can confer their factual knowledge of a subject in a public debate.
Maybe you could explain further what part of the above post is 'Absolute rubbish'.

[2ZZ Top]

NGee said:

Dog Star said:

Lord Marylebone said:

The fact that you just have to slowly turn the pedals with no effort to 'activate' the motor on an e-bike, is in reality, a farce and no different to pressing a throttle button on a scooter.

Absolute rubbish.

It's always good when someone can confer their factual knowledge of a subject in a public debate.
Maybe you could explain further what part of the above post is 'Absolute rubbish'.

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

[OutInTheShed]

For one thing, 'pedal assist mode' requires you to be properly astride the bike, not posing about on one foot or whatever.

[heebeegeetee]

Lord Marylebone said:

I get that you are keen enough on health and fitness to want to pedal, which is great, but many people will have their e-bikes set so that the assistance is at it's absolute maximum and they have to do almost nothing. I watch enough well-to-do pensioners on their £1500 e-bikes cycling up the long hill outside my house to see that they are flying up the road at 15.5mph with with barely any effort or pressure on the pedals. Basically just keeping the pedals moving so that the motor keeps propelling them.

This isn't making sense to me. When you get to retirement age, which I have, I think you do very much focus on health, well-being and concern over how many healthy years of living you're going to get. We're all familiar with the notion of pensioners and their exercise classes etc

A legal e-bike already bowls up hills at a reasonable speed with minimal effort if required (or you can choose to stand on the pedals and grind up, you have the choice).

Modifying the bike to make an easy task even easier, but with very serious consequences to a driving licence if things go wrong, just makes no sense to me. Very very little to gain, heck of a lot to lose.

I haven't seen or experienced what you describe, fwiw, even when out among serious pensioner numbers in Spain.

[heebeegeetee]

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

I can 'fly' along at 15 mph with what I would describe as minimal effort, on the flat, if I wish. Maybe 10-12 mph uphill, I'll have to check.

My mountain e-bike is a phenomenal pice of kit as far as I'm concerned. It's got me back out on the hills, having a work out, getting up a sweat, having a great day out.

My alternative choice is to not go. It's a game changer, for a 64 Yr old who hasn't looked after himself properly, with asthma (under control) and a replacement knee.

[NGee]

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

I suppose it depends how you define the word 'effort'.

If you put the bike in 1st gear and the motor in 5th gear (speed) then all you have to do is move your feet at anything over approx 2 RPM, with no force exerted at all on the pedals, and the bike will quite happily 'fly along' at 15.5 MPH.

[NGee]

heebeegeetee said:

I can 'fly' along at 15 mph with what I would describe as minimal effort, on the flat, if I wish. Maybe 10-12 mph uphill, I'll have to check.

My mountain e-bike is a phenomenal pice of kit as far as I'm concerned. It's got me back out on the hills, having a work out, getting up a sweat, having a great day out.

My alternative choice is to not go. It's a game changer, for a 64 Yr old who hasn't looked after himself properly, with asthma (under control) and a replacement knee.

Exactly this, I get far more exercise, at a level I can choose, than I ever did on a normal bike. Mainly because it sat in the garage all the time because going uphill nearly killed me!!

[RizzoTheRat]

NGee said:

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

I suppose it depends how you define the word 'effort'.

If you put the bike in 1st gear and the motor in 5th gear (speed) then all you have to do is move your feet at anything over approx 2 RPM, with no force exerted at all on the pedals, and the bike will quite happily 'fly along' at 15.5 MPH.

Depends on the type of e-bike. Rotation sensors like you describe are common on front wheel motors, mid motors tend to have a torque sensor that measures the amount of force you're putting in, and generates a multiple (usually from 25% to something like 200% I think). Rotation sensors feel bloody weird to ride, torque sensors feel a lot more natural.

[boyse7en]

RizzoTheRat said:

NGee said:

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

I suppose it depends how you define the word 'effort'.

If you put the bike in 1st gear and the motor in 5th gear (speed) then all you have to do is move your feet at anything over approx 2 RPM, with no force exerted at all on the pedals, and the bike will quite happily 'fly along' at 15.5 MPH.

Depends on the type of e-bike. Rotation sensors like you describe are common on front wheel motors, mid motors tend to have a torque sensor that measures the amount of force you're putting in, and generates a multiple (usually from 25% to something like 200% I think). Rotation sensors feel bloody weird to ride, torque sensors feel a lot more natural.

My missus has got an ebike and definitely has to put effort into riding up the hills. The bike just doesnt "fly along" at 15.5mph unless you push the pedals quite hard. Turn them at 2rpm and the motor will not do anything at all.

[eldar]

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

Are we talking about transport or exercise? Seems people get upset by the idea of pure, simple transport.

[Comacchio]

eldar said:

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

Are we talking about transport or exercise? Seems people get upset by the idea of pure, simple transport.

Was just about to post something very similar. Let's ban cars, busses, trains, motorbikes etc - people aren't getting any exercise when using these forms of transport. I for one am looking forward to the eventual legalisation of e-scooters and would be happy with a drone type control - registration, basic course possibly, QR code to display on your scooter that can be scanned to prove you're the registered keeper/user, cycle lanes and roads only, no pavements.

My commute will be changing from stop-start traffic on a motorway averaging 22 mpg at times onto an e-scooter, arriving at the office in the same time, if not less, not needing a shower or a change of clothes that I do on the rare occasion I take the bike to work.

A lot of people are just so resistant to change.

Edited by Comacchio on Tuesday 10th May 18:12

[NGee]

boyse7en said:

RizzoTheRat said:

NGee said:

2ZZ Top said:

I think anyone who has tried an e-bike knows that it is kinda rubbish. If you don't pedal, you don't go. If you want a sweaty workout on an e-bike, you can definitely have one. You'll just cover more miles than the same workout on a pushbike. If you want to bimble along, you can do that too. But what you cannot do is fly along at 15.5mph with no effort.

I suppose it depends how you define the word 'effort'.

If you put the bike in 1st gear and the motor in 5th gear (speed) then all you have to do is move your feet at anything over approx 2 RPM, with no force exerted at all on the pedals, and the bike will quite happily 'fly along' at 15.5 MPH.

Depends on the type of e-bike. Rotation sensors like you describe are common on front wheel motors, mid motors tend to have a torque sensor that measures the amount of force you're putting in, and generates a multiple (usually from 25% to something like 200% I think). Rotation sensors feel bloody weird to ride, torque sensors feel a lot more natural.

My missus has got an ebike and definitely has to put effort into riding up the hills. The bike just doesnt "fly along" at 15.5mph unless you push the pedals quite hard. Turn them at 2rpm and the motor will not do anything at all.

OK fair enough, I didn't realise that the mid motor bikes behave differently.
Mine has a rear hub motor with rotation sensors on the pedal crank, no torque sensors and definitely works exactly as described above.

[anonymous-user]

eldar said:

Are we talking about transport or exercise? Seems people get upset by the idea of pure, simple transport.

You just put it much better than I was clumsily trying to explain.

Forget about pedalling or not pedalling, exercise or not exercise, it is all totally irrelevant to the discussion about E-scooters, E-bikes, and whatever else you want to discuss.

This is about methods of simple personal transport.

I’m looking at it from a straightforward ‘transport’ point of view, and of road safety. Looking at it from that point of view, I totally fail to see how a 15.5mph E-scooter is any more dangerous than a 15.5mph e-bike, or indeed any bicycle pedalled at 15mph or faster.

Why do E-scooters need any more regulation or restriction than an E-bike, if we ignore meaningless reasons like pedalling or exercise?

People have come out with other meaningless stuff like ‘they might be used by criminals’…. Yeah, like bicycles, E-bikes, mopeds, motorcycles, and cars are already. What’s the difference?

[heebeegeetee]

Lord Marylebone said:

You just put it much better than I was clumsily trying to explain.

Forget about pedalling or not pedalling, exercise or not exercise, it is all totally irrelevant to the discussion about E-scooters, E-bikes, and whatever else you want to discuss.

This is about methods of simple personal transport.

I’m looking at it from a straightforward ‘transport’ point of view, and of road safety. Looking at it from that point of view, I totally fail to see how a 15.5mph E-scooter is any more dangerous than a 15.5mph e-bike, or indeed any bicycle pedalled at 15mph or faster.

Why do E-scooters need any more regulation or restriction than an E-bike, if we ignore meaningless reasons like pedalling or exercise?

People have come out with other meaningless stuff like ‘they might be used by criminals’…. Yeah, like bicycles, E-bikes, mopeds, motorcycles, and cars are already. What’s the difference?

I think you've got it completely wrong, the exercise factor is very important indeed.

The benefits of cycling are known to outweigh the negatives by many times, depending on whose figures you want to follow, mostly because of the element of exercise. This doesn't apply to scooters because there is no element of exercise. There are other benefits but they apply to cycling also.

I think scooters will have a greater nuisance factor but that's just my personal opinion.

I also don't agree with comments you've made about road safety, neither scooter or bicycle pose a great danger to others, in extreme contrast to the motor car.

[Comacchio]

heebeegeetee said:

I think you've got it completely wrong, the exercise factor is very important indeed.

The benefits of cycling are known to outweigh the negatives by many times, depending on whose figures you want to follow, mostly because of the element of exercise. This doesn't apply to scooters because there is no element of exercise. There are other benefits but they apply to cycling also.

I think scooters will have a greater nuisance factor but that's just my personal opinion.

I also don't agree with comments you've made about road safety, neither scooter or bicycle pose a great danger to others, in extreme contrast to the motor car.

And what about people in my situation? Living 8 miles from a major city with cycle routes already in place to make a safe commute - I would cycle to work, but the inconvenience factor of having to carry a change of clothes, towel, soap etc never mind the fact that adding all of that onto my already heavy work bag would make me quite unsteady on the bike makes me get into my gas guzzling car every morning and fight the rush hour traffic, turning my 8 miles into 11 miles each way burning petrol and emitting CO2 all the while.

If e-scooters were legal I'd only be using my car for longer journeys as all my commutes would be on the scooter. Wouldn't even mind the rain as much - stick waterproofs ontop of my work clothes and be done with it.

[heebeegeetee]

Comacchio said:

And what about people in my situation? Living 8 miles from a major city with cycle routes already in place to make a safe commute - I would cycle to work, but the inconvenience factor of having to carry a change of clothes, towel, soap etc never mind the fact that adding all of that onto my already heavy work bag would make me quite unsteady on the bike makes me get into my gas guzzling car every morning and fight the rush hour traffic, turning my 8 miles into 11 miles each way burning petrol and emitting CO2 all the while.

If e-scooters were legal I'd only be using my car for longer journeys as all my commutes would be on the scooter. Wouldn't even mind the rain as much - stick waterproofs ontop of my work clothes and be done with it.

Well obviously you don't make policy for one person, but really I was discussing the element of exercise. I totally disagree with LM's views on this, and I'm very certain that it's the element of exercise will continue to favour govt policy on bicycles over powered machines.

[OutInTheShed]

I think there is a safety difference between a scooter and a bike, because the scooter's small wheels will cope less well with potholes than a bike.
They are also less directionally stable?
I'm sure not all scooters are the same, but I've see a few people getting them out of shape and jumping off in situations where a bike would be safer.
Maybe to be similarly 'safe' to a bike, they need minimum wheel sizes, wheelbase etc, or to be tested over some sort of bumpy road?

You can't deny that with the saddle, you are more connected to the bike and that helps with control.
Also the width of the pedals gives you control.

I think these factors add up to a bike having much more margin for error when say going down a bumpy hill.
Maybe that could be offset by limiting the downhill speed, whereas a bike can freewheel at well over 15mph.

[anonymous-user]

heebeegeetee said:

I think you've got it completely wrong, the exercise factor is very important indeed.

The benefits of cycling are known to outweigh the negatives by many times, depending on whose figures you want to follow, mostly because of the element of exercise. This doesn't apply to scooters because there is no element of exercise. There are other benefits but they apply to cycling also.

I think scooters will have a greater nuisance factor but that's just my personal opinion.

I also don't agree with comments you've made about road safety, neither scooter or bicycle pose a great danger to others, in extreme contrast to the motor car.

I totally agree that exercise is important.

But in my view this is more about getting people out of cars, taxis, and busses, and other fossil fuel vehicles, for short journeys and for commuting.

People use cars for a staggering amount of short journeys and short commutes, often as a lone occupant of the vehicle.

But, however much you ask nicely, they won’t cycle or walk instead.

So what’s the next best option? I think that E-scooters offer one of the solutions.

I’m a prime example. I don’t own a bicycle, and I use my car for reasonably short journeys to the shops a back, or to friends houses, or whatever. Walking would take too long. If I could use an e scooter instead of the car, then I would. Zipping along at 15.5mph without having to pedal would be amazing, and I wouldn’t be causing congestion and needing parking spaces while I did it.

I know a couple of people who used E scooters for commuting across the cities to their office in the early days, before the police started enforcing the laws and having crackdowns. They did 4-5 miles each way on the scooter, and it was brilliant for them. One of them sold their car, and one of them ceased to need the bus anymore.

Ultimately it’s a judgement call between trying to encourage more people to walk and cycle, and getting cars off the road, and my view is that if people don’t currently walk and cycle, you won’t convince them to start very easily, but you could easily encourage them to stop using a car if they could make journeys on a £400 electric scooter which would save them a fortune in fuel and parking costs, not to mention the maintenance and running costs of a car.

A friend of mine has built himself an illegal e-bike (30mph, hand throttle, no pedalling, and 30 mile range) and he uses it every day to travel the 4 miles to his work and back. He has now sold his car and is saving a fortune. His wife’s car is now the only one they own.

Tell him he has to pedal his way to work and he would go back to using a car.

There must be millions of people like him, and me.

(Lastly, apologies if I came across in a confusing fashion about safety. I agree that bicycles and scooters offer transport that poses almost no risk to other road users, unlike cars which I do agree pose significant and proven dangers)

[PhillipM]

OutInTheShed said:

You can't deny that with the saddle, you are more connected to the bike and that helps with control.

I think you pretty obviously can, given any sort of rider requiring more control, finesse, etc, in many different forms of bike sports will be stood up on the pedals.