E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?
Discussion
Lord Marylebone said:
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I know a couple of people who used E scooters for commuting across the cities to their office in the early days, before the police started enforcing the laws and having crackdowns. They did 4-5 miles each way on the scooter, and it was brilliant for them. One of them sold their car, and one of them ceased to need the bus anymore.
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This is a classic 'few early adopters' situation, when you've got a small number of people being sensible and trying to keep a little bit under the radar, you don't get many problems. When any such activity becomes popular and lots of people start asserting their 'right' to said activity, conflicts start.I know a couple of people who used E scooters for commuting across the cities to their office in the early days, before the police started enforcing the laws and having crackdowns. They did 4-5 miles each way on the scooter, and it was brilliant for them. One of them sold their car, and one of them ceased to need the bus anymore.
......)
Small, crowded island syndrome.
I don't think we've reached a steady-state situation with e-bikes yet, I think people are still adapting, numbers are still increasing and the level of conflict with other road/path/track users is rising, so much of the e-bike<>e-scooter comparison is spurious.
Lord Marylebone said:
I totally agree that exercise is important.
But in my view this is more about getting people out of cars, taxis, and busses, and other fossil fuel vehicles, for short journeys and for commuting.
People use cars for a staggering amount of short journeys and short commutes, often as a lone occupant of the vehicle.
But, however much you ask nicely, they won’t cycle or walk instead.
So what’s the next best option? I think that E-scooters offer one of the solutions.
I’m a prime example. I don’t own a bicycle, and I use my car for reasonably short journeys to the shops a back, or to friends houses, or whatever. Walking would take too long. If I could use an e scooter instead of the car, then I would. Zipping along at 15.5mph without having to pedal would be amazing, and I wouldn’t be causing congestion and needing parking spaces while I did it.
I know a couple of people who used E scooters for commuting across the cities to their office in the early days, before the police started enforcing the laws and having crackdowns. They did 4-5 miles each way on the scooter, and it was brilliant for them. One of them sold their car, and one of them ceased to need the bus anymore.
Ultimately it’s a judgement call between trying to encourage more people to walk and cycle, and getting cars off the road, and my view is that if people don’t currently walk and cycle, you won’t convince them to start very easily, but you could easily encourage them to stop using a car if they could make journeys on a £400 electric scooter which would save them a fortune in fuel and parking costs, not to mention the maintenance and running costs of a car.
A friend of mine has built himself an illegal e-bike (30mph, hand throttle, no pedalling, and 30 mile range) and he uses it every day to travel the 4 miles to his work and back. He has now sold his car and is saving a fortune. His wife’s car is now the only one they own.
Tell him he has to pedal his way to work and he would go back to using a car.
There must be millions of people like him, and me.
(Lastly, apologies if I came across in a confusing fashion about safety. I agree that bicycles and scooters offer transport that poses almost no risk to other road users, unlike cars which I do agree pose significant and proven dangers)
Very little there to disagree with. I think your friend would be well served with a good ebike, he could get some exercise without working up a sweat at all, and then there's the feel good factor too But in my view this is more about getting people out of cars, taxis, and busses, and other fossil fuel vehicles, for short journeys and for commuting.
People use cars for a staggering amount of short journeys and short commutes, often as a lone occupant of the vehicle.
But, however much you ask nicely, they won’t cycle or walk instead.
So what’s the next best option? I think that E-scooters offer one of the solutions.
I’m a prime example. I don’t own a bicycle, and I use my car for reasonably short journeys to the shops a back, or to friends houses, or whatever. Walking would take too long. If I could use an e scooter instead of the car, then I would. Zipping along at 15.5mph without having to pedal would be amazing, and I wouldn’t be causing congestion and needing parking spaces while I did it.
I know a couple of people who used E scooters for commuting across the cities to their office in the early days, before the police started enforcing the laws and having crackdowns. They did 4-5 miles each way on the scooter, and it was brilliant for them. One of them sold their car, and one of them ceased to need the bus anymore.
Ultimately it’s a judgement call between trying to encourage more people to walk and cycle, and getting cars off the road, and my view is that if people don’t currently walk and cycle, you won’t convince them to start very easily, but you could easily encourage them to stop using a car if they could make journeys on a £400 electric scooter which would save them a fortune in fuel and parking costs, not to mention the maintenance and running costs of a car.
A friend of mine has built himself an illegal e-bike (30mph, hand throttle, no pedalling, and 30 mile range) and he uses it every day to travel the 4 miles to his work and back. He has now sold his car and is saving a fortune. His wife’s car is now the only one they own.
Tell him he has to pedal his way to work and he would go back to using a car.
There must be millions of people like him, and me.
(Lastly, apologies if I came across in a confusing fashion about safety. I agree that bicycles and scooters offer transport that poses almost no risk to other road users, unlike cars which I do agree pose significant and proven dangers)
However such a bike would probably cost a lot more and then there's the theft aspect too. Comacchio said:
And what about people in my situation? Living 8 miles from a major city with cycle routes already in place to make a safe commute - I would cycle to work, but the inconvenience factor of having to carry a change of clothes, towel, soap etc never mind the fact that adding all of that onto my already heavy work bag would make me quite unsteady on the bike makes me get into my gas guzzling car every morning and fight the rush hour traffic, turning my 8 miles into 11 miles each way burning petrol and emitting CO2 all the while.
If e-scooters were legal I'd only be using my car for longer journeys as all my commutes would be on the scooter. Wouldn't even mind the rain as much - stick waterproofs ontop of my work clothes and be done with it.
If e-scooters were legal I'd only be using my car for longer journeys as all my commutes would be on the scooter. Wouldn't even mind the rain as much - stick waterproofs ontop of my work clothes and be done with it.
A torque sensing ebike on high power setting doesn't need any more exertion than going for a stroll, a
rotation sensing one doesn't even need that much effort, meaning no need to shower and change at work, and panniers make carrying heavy stuff easy. My wife's currently doing a commute of about that distance on an ebike in her work clothes with a laptop and other stuff in a pannier.
Not sure if I'd want to carry a heavy bag on an escooter. Surely the main advantage of a scooter is you can fold it up small, if you don't need to do that I can't see where it has any advantage over a bike.
heebeegeetee said:
I think you've got it completely wrong, the exercise factor is very important indeed.
The benefits of cycling are known to outweigh the negatives by many times, depending on whose figures you want to follow, mostly because of the element of exercise. This doesn't apply to scooters because there is no element of exercise. There are other benefits but they apply to cycling also.
I think scooters will have a greater nuisance factor but that's just my personal opinion.
I also don't agree with comments you've made about road safety, neither scooter or bicycle pose a great danger to others, in extreme contrast to the motor car.
Electrically powered bicycles good, because you have to pedal a little, because you must exercise.The benefits of cycling are known to outweigh the negatives by many times, depending on whose figures you want to follow, mostly because of the element of exercise. This doesn't apply to scooters because there is no element of exercise. There are other benefits but they apply to cycling also.
I think scooters will have a greater nuisance factor but that's just my personal opinion.
I also don't agree with comments you've made about road safety, neither scooter or bicycle pose a great danger to others, in extreme contrast to the motor car.
No pedalling, do not allow.
Seems a somewhat repressive view.
eldar said:
Electrically powered bicycles good, because you have to pedal a little, because you must exercise.
No pedalling, do not allow.
Seems a somewhat repressive view.
I'm not sure what you mean.No pedalling, do not allow.
Seems a somewhat repressive view.
I have 3 e bikes. My experience is not that you pedal a little, it's that you pedal all the time except when going down hill. You can have a good exercise or you can arrive fresh and clean if you want.
Powered bicycles I have no real comment to make. To me they're electric motorbikes, and I have little interest. I'm sure there's plenty of them, i would expect them to meet different legislation, I don't see the point in muddying the water in regard them and genuine legal e-bicyles.
Legal e-bikes are so good I don't see the point in messing with the formula.
heebeegeetee said:
eldar said:
Electrically powered bicycles good, because you have to pedal a little, because you must exercise.
No pedalling, do not allow.
Seems a somewhat repressive view.
I'm not sure what you mean.No pedalling, do not allow.
Seems a somewhat repressive view.
I have 3 e bikes. My experience is not that you pedal a little, it's that you pedal all the time except when going down hill. You can have a good exercise or you can arrive fresh and clean if you want.
Powered bicycles I have no real comment to make. To me they're electric motorbikes, and I have little interest. I'm sure there's plenty of them, i would expect them to meet different legislation, I don't see the point in muddying the water in regard them and genuine legal e-bicyles.
Legal e-bikes are so good I don't see the point in messing with the formula.
Is the feeling that escooters somehow devalue conventional cycles?
Apply the same level of regulation and enforcement to escooters as ebikes, except, obviously, pedals. It really ought to be that simple.
eldar said:
Apply the same level of regulation and enforcement to escooters as ebikes, except, obviously, pedals. It really ought to be that simple.
A lot of countries have different riues for low power/speed mopeds would probably work well. eg Dutch "Snorfiets" are limited to 25kph, can use bike lanes, and don't need helmets, however some cities have local rules that are different (eg in Amsterdam you need a helmet and can't ride them on the bike paths). This makes a distinction between bikes where you pedal and ones with a throttle, which think is pretty sensible as the method of control is totally different.Seems that something's going to happen relatively soon, one way or another:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61354078
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61354078
The 'Lime' ones which pop up on the BBC are big old things, with fair size tyres and front suspension.
Quite different from most of the illegal ones?
Are they going to legalise motorised versions of the child's folding scooter, based on trials of something more like a Moulton bike with no saddle?
That would IMHO, be potty, but then again, it is the guvmint we're talking about.
Or will they legalise some sort of 'horse designed by a committee'?
Quite different from most of the illegal ones?
Are they going to legalise motorised versions of the child's folding scooter, based on trials of something more like a Moulton bike with no saddle?
That would IMHO, be potty, but then again, it is the guvmint we're talking about.
Or will they legalise some sort of 'horse designed by a committee'?
OutInTheShed said:
The 'Lime' ones which pop up on the BBC are big old things, with fair size tyres and front suspension.
Quite different from most of the illegal ones?
Are they going to legalise motorised versions of the child's folding scooter, based on trials of something more like a Moulton bike with no saddle?
That would IMHO, be potty, but then again, it is the guvmint we're talking about.
Or will they legalise some sort of 'horse designed by a committee'?
I suspect, as I said before further up the thread, that actually, we aren't going to see legalisation of private ownership of them at all (Much as I'd love to see that), but actually just a big expansion of the hire scooters. Rather than being restricted to the trial zones, the hire companies will be able to expand them anywhere, with the same rules and restrictions as the existing hire ones.Quite different from most of the illegal ones?
Are they going to legalise motorised versions of the child's folding scooter, based on trials of something more like a Moulton bike with no saddle?
That would IMHO, be potty, but then again, it is the guvmint we're talking about.
Or will they legalise some sort of 'horse designed by a committee'?
I hope I'm wrong - to my mind these could be transformative for a lot of people commuting in urban areas, and I don't see them as being any more dangerous than an e-bike - but I suspect those hoping for legal private ownership will be disappointed.
pip t said:
OutInTheShed said:
The 'Lime' ones which pop up on the BBC are big old things, with fair size tyres and front suspension.
Quite different from most of the illegal ones?
Are they going to legalise motorised versions of the child's folding scooter, based on trials of something more like a Moulton bike with no saddle?
That would IMHO, be potty, but then again, it is the guvmint we're talking about.
Or will they legalise some sort of 'horse designed by a committee'?
I suspect, as I said before further up the thread, that actually, we aren't going to see legalisation of private ownership of them at all (Much as I'd love to see that), but actually just a big expansion of the hire scooters. Rather than being restricted to the trial zones, the hire companies will be able to expand them anywhere, with the same rules and restrictions as the existing hire ones.Quite different from most of the illegal ones?
Are they going to legalise motorised versions of the child's folding scooter, based on trials of something more like a Moulton bike with no saddle?
That would IMHO, be potty, but then again, it is the guvmint we're talking about.
Or will they legalise some sort of 'horse designed by a committee'?
I hope I'm wrong - to my mind these could be transformative for a lot of people commuting in urban areas, and I don't see them as being any more dangerous than an e-bike - but I suspect those hoping for legal private ownership will be disappointed.
boyse7en said:
My missus has got an ebike and definitely has to put effort into riding up the hills. The bike just doesnt "fly along" at 15.5mph unless you push the pedals quite hard. Turn them at 2rpm and the motor will not do anything at all.
Exactly. I’ve had several eMTBs, all completely road legal and I do all manner of trails and bike parks on them every single day. My “absolute rubbish” comment to Lord Marylebone was as far as I could even be bothered commenting on total uninformed garbage. Sure with one on full boost in first gear you might hardly have to press the pedals but you won’t be travelling very fast and neither will you get very far. To be fair the same applies to a normal cycle in a very low gear. I could go on and on but I cannot be arsed. A road legal ebike is pedal assist. They don’t pedal for you nor remove all effort. Anything with a throttle (unless it’s some ancient edge case - I’ve never seen one) or that doesn’t need pedalling isn’t an ebike; it’s a motorbike and out of the scope of this debate in the same way that a petrol engined motorbike would be. I’m all for electric scooters - brilliant things, but they’re not ebikes or anything like them.
Donbot said:
jakesmith said:
Just hope the motors aren't capped at 250W that would suck for hills.
That should be ok for hills unless you are a big fat fatty shouldn't it? Plus you can also kick it to help it out. 15mph is about 7.5m/s
Power is force x speed
Force of 33N or just over 3kg
so it would be slow up hills.
But it's interesting that the power rules for e-bikes blather on about average power over 30 minutes.
So in a hilly place, you might have 15 minutes of twice the power and 15 minutes of downhill or some such.
OutInTheShed said:
Donbot said:
jakesmith said:
Just hope the motors aren't capped at 250W that would suck for hills.
That should be ok for hills unless you are a big fat fatty shouldn't it? Plus you can also kick it to help it out. 15mph is about 7.5m/s
Power is force x speed
Force of 33N or just over 3kg
so it would be slow up hills.
But it's interesting that the power rules for e-bikes blather on about average power over 30 minutes.
So in a hilly place, you might have 15 minutes of twice the power and 15 minutes of downhill or some such.
The average power limits are interesting.
Donbot said:
Cycling up hills is slower but I never hear of people saying cycling is unviable due to slowness up hills.
The average power limits are interesting.
You've not lived in Bath I take it?The average power limits are interesting.
Ask a student there why they don't save the bus fare and cycle up to the uni!
Never mind 250W, 250cc is barely enough.
OutInTheShed said:
Donbot said:
Cycling up hills is slower but I never hear of people saying cycling is unviable due to slowness up hills.
The average power limits are interesting.
You've not lived in Bath I take it?The average power limits are interesting.
Ask a student there why they don't save the bus fare and cycle up to the uni!
Never mind 250W, 250cc is barely enough.
I know you are being hyperbolic but I used to ride my 125 up Winnats pass regularly and it was fine.
eldar said:
Why the requirement for exercise, it seems almost obsessive. I believe some of the most active objectors are enthusiastic cyclists.
Is the feeling that escooters somehow devalue conventional cycles?
Apply the same level of regulation and enforcement to escooters as ebikes, except, obviously, pedals. It really ought to be that simple.
Similar, but not the same regulations as they are electrically powered rather than assisted. Regs would need to cover any lightweight, low power, ev, such as skate boards, hover boards, Segway type and unicycles. If they don't then something new will pop up that needs a whole new set of rules. Is the feeling that escooters somehow devalue conventional cycles?
Apply the same level of regulation and enforcement to escooters as ebikes, except, obviously, pedals. It really ought to be that simple.
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