E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?

[eldar]

PF62 said:

Existing road users behave like idiots and put people at risk, so the government allowing electric scooters will improve things by introducing more untrained and uninsured vehicles onto the road and illegally onto the pavements.

I suggest you haven’t thought your argument through very well.

The hundreds of million being spent on bicycle infrastructure for all those untrained cyclists?

[RizzoTheRat]

Abbott said:

Just seen an article in The Times this morning explaining that Link will introduce scooters that switch off if you move to the pavement

Latest e-scooter turns itself off the second riders leave the road

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/latest-e-scoote...

Article's paywalled, but I'd be interested to see how they achieve that, I can see that maybe GPS could be used to keep them out of large pedestrian areas but no way it's accurate or reliable enough to keep them off pavements.

[sospan]

If I am correct then hire e-scooters are legal on roads but owner ones not?
A distinction between hiring and owning.
The use in pedestrian areas, pavements is the same for both?
I am wondering if this is a back door push by e-scooter industry to create a need to change the laws once hired ones become common. Ate the lawmakers ( politicians, lawyers, civil servants) going to put their heads on the block to reign it in at some point?
Reminds me of the diesel is good then diesel is bad scenario.

[anonymous-user]

PF62 said:

Lord Marylebone said:

In all the circumstances you describe, there is already legislation in place to deal with those offences.

You can’t really blame the actual e-scooters themselves for:

a) Members of the public ignoring traffic law, which has always happened since vehicles existed.

b) The Police for failing to use their powers to deal with these incidents.

Just to clear up one point, e-scooters are the same as bicycles with regards to helmets. Riders are not required to wear one, or any other form of protection.

Hilarious to see someone here arguing for more enforcement of road traffic offences.

And as with bikes, the legal rental electric scooters are not permitted to use pavements or ride through pedestrianised areas - although the idiots riding them seem to be unaware of that.

Where did I argue for greater enforcement of road traffic offences? I merely stated that there is legislation in place and the Police are, on the whole, failing to utilise it. I did not say I wanted the Police to increase enforcement.

As for your last paragraph, how do you know they are unaware of the rules? The traffic laws/rules are made available to them on the Apps that are used when you hire one. Maybe they are just choosing to ignore them like pretty much every teenager I have ever seen on a bicycle.

Idiots will be idiots when using vehicles and this will almost certainly never be dealt with. The only difference is that car drivers and motorcyclists cause massively more deaths and injuries than cyclists or scooter riders cause.

I say this as someone who drives a car and rides motorcycles, doesn’t own a bicycle, and doesn’t (yet) own an e-scooter.

[PF62]

JQ said:

The person riding a scooter illegally or dangerously is likely to do the same no matter what mode of transport they use.

And your evidence for that is where?

You rarely see buses or cars being driven on the pavement so pedestrians have to jump out of the way, but that appears to be the preferred option for electric scooter users.

[Abbott]

RizzoTheRat said:

Abbott said:

Just seen an article in The Times this morning explaining that Link will introduce scooters that switch off if you move to the pavement

Latest e-scooter turns itself off the second riders leave the road

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/latest-e-scoote...

Article's paywalled, but I'd be interested to see how they achieve that, I can see that maybe GPS could be used to keep them out of large pedestrian areas but no way it's accurate or reliable enough to keep them off pavements.

Here is a link to the Link site
https://www.link.city/#geofencing

It is suggesting that it does have the technology to distinguish the Go No Go to 0.5 metre

[Gareth79]

sospan said:

If I am correct then hire e-scooters are legal on roads but owner ones not?

Correct, if they are a permitted hire company in a permitted town.

sospan said:

The use in pedestrian areas, pavements is the same for both?

Yes, both are illegal.

sospan said:

I am wondering if this is a back door push by e-scooter industry to create a need to change the laws once hired ones become common. Ate the lawmakers ( politicians, lawyers, civil servants) going to put their heads on the block to reign it in at some point?
Reminds me of the diesel is good then diesel is bad scenario.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that the hire trial was designed as a way to test the waters for full legalisation later. IMO it was so that they could say that it was legalised in a controlled and measured way and they weren't just forced to legalise them because people were riding them anyway.

[anonymous-user]

Gareth79 said:

Yes, it's pretty obvious that the hire trial was designed as a way to test the waters for full legalisation later. IMO it was so that they could say that it was legalised in a controlled and measured way and they weren't just forced to legalise them because people were riding them anyway.

I fully agree, but be careful saying that kind of thing in this thread!

There are several posters who are convinced that the rental trials are absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with legalising privately owned scooters.

They cannot seem to grasp that the end game here is to legalise privately owned scooters on the roads, and the trials are a way of easing into it and giving the government ‘plausible deniability’.

[QuickQuack]

JQ said:

In the last 2 weeks, I've "almost" had several cars ram me whilst in my car, witnessed pedestrians run out into the road and "almost" get killed, had to jump out of the way of a jogger who "almost"knocked me over and seen numerous infractions by pedestrians, cyclists (many not wearing protection), and motorists (none wearing protection) - none of which have suffered any consequences. It's just normal life in a city.

I did learn something new this week though - more people in the UK are killed by cows every year than by cyclists.

Given that I only saw about 5 or 6 of these things in total, that gives 50+% of riders being idiots. Were you nearly hit by every other car?

Lord Marylebone said:

In all the circumstances you describe, there is already legislation in place to deal with those offences.

You can’t really blame the actual e-scooters themselves for:

a) Members of the public ignoring traffic law, which has always happened since vehicles existed.

b) The Police for failing to use their powers to deal with these incidents.

Just to clear up one point, e-scooters are the same as bicycles with regards to helmets. Riders are not required to wear one, or any other form of protection.

I know, which is why I also said that I didn't think more legislation would achieve anything. I would like more people to cycle, I would far rather see more people on e-scooters than cars; both would be better for health and environmental reasons. The only thing lacking is people's concern and respect for other people around them. Sadly, no amount of legislation can achieve that.

[JQ]

PF62 said:

JQ said:

The person riding a scooter illegally or dangerously is likely to do the same no matter what mode of transport they use.

And your evidence for that is where?

You rarely see buses or cars being driven on the pavement so pedestrians have to jump out of the way, but that appears to be the preferred option for electric scooter users.

I'm suggesting that people are knobs and have disregard for the safety of others no matter what form of transport they use. Do you disagree, if so, why?

You may rarely see buses or cars driving on the pavement, but that doesn't stop 450 pedestrians a year being killed by them. As opposed to 2 per year being killed by cyclists, who I would suggest are the closest to electric scooters in their habits.

[QuickQuack]

PF62 said:

JQ said:

The person riding a scooter illegally or dangerously is likely to do the same no matter what mode of transport they use.

And your evidence for that is where?

You rarely see buses or cars being driven on the pavement so pedestrians have to jump out of the way, but that appears to be the preferred option for electric scooter users.

Actually, I think the point JQ makes is correct. I wouldn't have expected any of the loony e-scooter riders I've encountered to behave any better if they had a bigger and more powerful form of transport. All it would've done would've been to pose a bigger risk people around them.

[Abbott]

Cant wait for all of the E-Scooter DCW postings.

[PF62]

JQ said:

PF62 said:

JQ said:

The person riding a scooter illegally or dangerously is likely to do the same no matter what mode of transport they use.

And your evidence for that is where?

You rarely see buses or cars being driven on the pavement so pedestrians have to jump out of the way, but that appears to be the preferred option for electric scooter users.

I'm suggesting that people are knobs and have disregard for the safety of others no matter what form of transport they use. Do you disagree, if so, why?

I disagree because I have never had to jump out of the way of a car or bus being driven down the pavement, but all too frequently I have to for electric scooter riders.

The difference with cyclists is the few who do ride on the pavement behave like they know they shouldn’t be there and don’t expect to ‘blast through’ irrespective. Electric scooter riders though have either no knowledge or no shame that they are being tts by riding on the pavement, so do zoom along and expect people to move for them.

[QuickQuack]

PF62 said:

I disagree because I have never had to jump out of the way of a car or bus being driven down the pavement, but all too frequently I have to for electric scooter riders.

The difference with cyclists is the few who do ride on the pavement behave like they know they shouldn’t be there and don’t expect to ‘blast through’ irrespective. Electric scooter riders though have either no knowledge or no shame that they are being tts by riding on the pavement, so do zoom along and expect people to move for them.

I've had plenty of cyclists behave similarly on pavements, and had to take avoiding action because of the irresponsible and downright dangerous driving of people on the road. They probably all share the same demographic, and have the same attitude in everything they do. Now I've thought about it a little more, giving them an e-scooter may well be the least dangerous option!

[JQ]

PF62 said:

JQ said:

PF62 said:

JQ said:

The person riding a scooter illegally or dangerously is likely to do the same no matter what mode of transport they use.

And your evidence for that is where?

You rarely see buses or cars being driven on the pavement so pedestrians have to jump out of the way, but that appears to be the preferred option for electric scooter users.

I'm suggesting that people are knobs and have disregard for the safety of others no matter what form of transport they use. Do you disagree, if so, why?

I disagree because I have never had to jump out of the way of a car or bus being driven down the pavement, but all too frequently I have to for electric scooter riders.

The difference with cyclists is the few who do ride on the pavement behave like they know they shouldn’t be there and don’t expect to ‘blast through’ irrespective. Electric scooter riders though have either no knowledge or no shame that they are being tts by riding on the pavement, so do zoom along and expect people to move for them.

Similarly, I've never seen a pedestrian killed in an RTA, but that does not mean it does not happen.

And your experience of cyclists is clearly at odds the rest of PH - cyclists kill, maim and cause £billions of damage every day. I'm one of the few cycle lovers on PH, but even I'm not blind to some of their shortcomings.

[PF62]

QuickQuack said:

I've had plenty of cyclists behave similarly on pavements, and had to take avoiding action because of the irresponsible and downright dangerous driving of people on the road. They probably all share the same demographic, and have the same attitude in everything they do. Now I've thought about it a little more, giving them an e-scooter may well be the least dangerous option!

So you haven’t had to avoid cars, buses, or trucks regularly driving on the pavement.

The problem with electric scooters is that is where they are being ridden with the expectation that pedestrians get out of the way.

[anonymous-user]

PF62 said:

I disagree because I have never had to jump out of the way of a car or bus being driven down the pavement, but all too frequently I have to for electric scooter riders.

The difference with cyclists is the few who do ride on the pavement behave like they know they shouldn’t be there and don’t expect to ‘blast through’ irrespective. Electric scooter riders though have either no knowledge or no shame that they are being tts by riding on the pavement, so do zoom along and expect people to move for them.

What is the solution then?

Because we can’t keep resisting new forms of personal electric transport just because a relatively small proportion of the users might be ignorant scofflaw imbeciles.

We all know that a small but significant proportion of car drivers are also ignorant scofflaw imbeciles, but we aren’t banning cars.

We have laws in place to curb the behaviour of both e-scooter riders and car drivers, so if you want to complain to anyone, complain to the Police about their lack of action.

[Pica-Pica]

The main problem with these is the small wheels, so
1) little ability to survive surface defects, bumps etc.
2) very little gyroscopic stability.

[QuickQuack]

PF62 said:

So you haven’t had to avoid cars, buses, or trucks regularly driving on the pavement.

As it happens, I have. In fact, many people in my village have. We've even raised it several times with the county council but nothing gets done. There's a blind bend in the main road with pavement on one side, a grass bank and side roads on the other with no pavement. As it's a narrow road, if 2 cars are there at the same time, they need to slow down and give way to each other. Unfortunately, many drivers seem to feel that because the pavement is extremely low with a dropped kerb, they can mount the pavement side at full speed and drive on the pavement round the blind corner instead slowing down. Even more unfortunately, county council have refused to put up any kind of barriers to stop cars being able to mount the kerb. In the past 6 months, I've had to jump out of the way of more cars driving on the pavement than e-scooters.

[PF62]

Lord Marylebone said:

What is the solution then?

Because we can’t keep resisting new forms of personal electric transport just because a relatively small proportion of the users might be ignorant scofflaw imbeciles.

The issue is that it isn’t a small proportion.

If it was the trial in Coventry would not have been halted.