E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?
Discussion
untakenname said:
Lots of times the Chinese bikes are 750W but are limited to 250W via the firmware, I wonder with bikes like these are they actually ever legal in the eyes of the law?
It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
No '250W' ebike is actually limited to 250W. The 250W is 'rated power'. Not maximum power. So if the manufacturer says it's 250W then they're legal, even if some of those motors can peak at 500W+.It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
There are plenty of dongles about for eg Bosch ebikes that will let them hit relatively high speeds (30+mph). But Bosch rate the motors at 250W.
Does the law make sense? Not really in my eyes. Setting a simple maximum speed for assistance would make a lot more sense - and it would open up using more powerful motors legally with heavier cargo bikes.
monthou said:
untakenname said:
Lots of times the Chinese bikes are 750W but are limited to 250W via the firmware, I wonder with bikes like these are they actually ever legal in the eyes of the law?
It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
No '250W' ebike is actually limited to 250W. The 250W is 'rated power'. Not maximum power. So if the manufacturer says it's 250W then they're legal, even if some of those motors can peak at 500W+.It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
There are plenty of dongles about for eg Bosch ebikes that will let them hit relatively high speeds (30+mph). But Bosch rate the motors at 250W.
Does the law make sense? Not really in my eyes. Setting a simple maximum speed for assistance would make a lot more sense - and it would open up using more powerful motors legally with heavier cargo bikes.
All a bit strange sounding, however it means you can have more power to help you get up hills and accelerate while still having an overall limit so a good thing for e-bikes. It also means that by design you can overdrive the motor, but ultimately it will only be for a short period as it will overheat, unless you modify your bike to add heatsink maybe?
Not sure what they do about scooters though, they are simply drive motors not assistance so the limit may indeed be on maximum output. They are really a basic motor vehicle rather than a human torque/work amplifier like an ebike.
monthou said:
untakenname said:
Lots of times the Chinese bikes are 750W but are limited to 250W via the firmware, I wonder with bikes like these are they actually ever legal in the eyes of the law?
It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
No '250W' ebike is actually limited to 250W. The 250W is 'rated power'. Not maximum power. So if the manufacturer says it's 250W then they're legal, even if some of those motors can peak at 500W+.It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
There are plenty of dongles about for eg Bosch ebikes that will let them hit relatively high speeds (30+mph). But Bosch rate the motors at 250W.
Does the law make sense? Not really in my eyes. Setting a simple maximum speed for assistance would make a lot more sense - and it would open up using more powerful motors legally with heavier cargo bikes.
The rated power is just a nonsense figure. They would be far better to just set speed limits, because as you say, that would open the possibilities of couriers, deliveries, post etc all using larger cargo bikes/trikes/quads filled with a decent payload of stuff.
jakesmith said:
My escoot is one of the best ones and is limited. Yesterday I was going down a steep hill and hit 30kph, it’s limited to 25 but gravity took it. It was scary and no way would it be safe to go faster purely based on the brakes
Mine is limited to 25kph (15 mph). I hit 18 on a long downhill run. 15 is plenty fast enough but there are instructional videos on how to work round the limiter firmware when you unbox it. When you update it on first use that opportunity goes away. Even tweaked 40mph is very unusual.
Lord Marylebone said:
monthou said:
untakenname said:
Lots of times the Chinese bikes are 750W but are limited to 250W via the firmware, I wonder with bikes like these are they actually ever legal in the eyes of the law?
It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
No '250W' ebike is actually limited to 250W. The 250W is 'rated power'. Not maximum power. So if the manufacturer says it's 250W then they're legal, even if some of those motors can peak at 500W+.It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
There are plenty of dongles about for eg Bosch ebikes that will let them hit relatively high speeds (30+mph). But Bosch rate the motors at 250W.
Does the law make sense? Not really in my eyes. Setting a simple maximum speed for assistance would make a lot more sense - and it would open up using more powerful motors legally with heavier cargo bikes.
The rated power is just a nonsense figure. They would be far better to just set speed limits, because as you say, that would open the possibilities of couriers, deliveries, post etc all using larger cargo bikes/trikes/quads filled with a decent payload of stuff.
Toltec said:
Lord Marylebone said:
monthou said:
untakenname said:
Lots of times the Chinese bikes are 750W but are limited to 250W via the firmware, I wonder with bikes like these are they actually ever legal in the eyes of the law?
It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
No '250W' ebike is actually limited to 250W. The 250W is 'rated power'. Not maximum power. So if the manufacturer says it's 250W then they're legal, even if some of those motors can peak at 500W+.It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
There are plenty of dongles about for eg Bosch ebikes that will let them hit relatively high speeds (30+mph). But Bosch rate the motors at 250W.
Does the law make sense? Not really in my eyes. Setting a simple maximum speed for assistance would make a lot more sense - and it would open up using more powerful motors legally with heavier cargo bikes.
The rated power is just a nonsense figure. They would be far better to just set speed limits, because as you say, that would open the possibilities of couriers, deliveries, post etc all using larger cargo bikes/trikes/quads filled with a decent payload of stuff.
It seems stupid to have a power restriction AND a speed limit when they could just have the assistance speed limit.
Unless I'm missing something?
Lord Marylebone said:
Toltec said:
Lord Marylebone said:
monthou said:
untakenname said:
Lots of times the Chinese bikes are 750W but are limited to 250W via the firmware, I wonder with bikes like these are they actually ever legal in the eyes of the law?
It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
No '250W' ebike is actually limited to 250W. The 250W is 'rated power'. Not maximum power. So if the manufacturer says it's 250W then they're legal, even if some of those motors can peak at 500W+.It's a bit like with 2 stroke mopeds back in the day which needed restrictor valves fitted to make them complaint with L plates, I doubt any police dyno'd them so everyone removed the restrictors.
There are plenty of dongles about for eg Bosch ebikes that will let them hit relatively high speeds (30+mph). But Bosch rate the motors at 250W.
Does the law make sense? Not really in my eyes. Setting a simple maximum speed for assistance would make a lot more sense - and it would open up using more powerful motors legally with heavier cargo bikes.
The rated power is just a nonsense figure. They would be far better to just set speed limits, because as you say, that would open the possibilities of couriers, deliveries, post etc all using larger cargo bikes/trikes/quads filled with a decent payload of stuff.
It seems stupid to have a power restriction AND a speed limit when they could just have the assistance speed limit.
Unless I'm missing something?
Power limits, if you have a massive power say a few kw instead of a 1/4 kw could the acceleration not be an issue ?
Im sure there is something in regulation on both the power and top speed.
A top speed limit would be useful for quantifying when policing but raising the wattage for cargo bikes would be problematic as you would need to weigh it before each journey so the correct power to weight could be selected.
Oddly enough just been served up a topical youtube video recommendation comparing the risks of Ebikes to Motorcycles and push bikes
Oddly enough just been served up a topical youtube video recommendation comparing the risks of Ebikes to Motorcycles and push bikes
untakenname said:
A top speed limit would be useful for quantifying when policing but raising the wattage for cargo bikes would be problematic as you would need to weigh it before each journey so the correct power to weight could be selected.
Oddly enough just been served up a topical youtube video recommendation comparing the risks of Ebikes to Motorcycles and push bikes
It would seem that is more about lazy idiots being attracted to ebikes than any problem with ebikes themselves. The same could be said of all of the people riding around on L plated mopeds as opposed to those on 'proper' bikes.Oddly enough just been served up a topical youtube video recommendation comparing the risks of Ebikes to Motorcycles and push bikes
untakenname said:
A top speed limit would be useful for quantifying when policing but raising the wattage for cargo bikes would be problematic as you would need to weigh it before each journey so the correct power to weight could be selected.
Why?Top speed is set in the controller. Whatever the system there's a speed sensor somewhere on the bike.
Toltec said:
It would seem that is more about lazy idiots being attracted to ebikes than any problem with ebikes themselves. The same could be said of all of the people riding around on L plated mopeds as opposed to those on 'proper' bikes.
I use a bicycle, ebike, motorcycle or car depending on journey / mood / weather / availability / laziness.There's a very noticeable difference in the way I'm treated by some drivers on a bicycle / ebike compared to a big red Honda. Close passes aren't an issue on the motorcycle for obvious reasons.
monthou said:
Toltec said:
It would seem that is more about lazy idiots being attracted to ebikes than any problem with ebikes themselves. The same could be said of all of the people riding around on L plated mopeds as opposed to those on 'proper' bikes.
I use a bicycle, ebike, motorcycle or car depending on journey / mood / weather / availability / laziness.There's a very noticeable difference in the way I'm treated by some drivers on a bicycle / ebike compared to a big red Honda. Close passes aren't an issue on the motorcycle for obvious reasons.
I do 90% of my riding off road on my emtb, it avoids the idiots in cars and is more fun.What I was alluding too were the pedestrians that choose a form of transport because it is the easy and convinient option without having any intention of learning how to use it safely. Hence non-bikers that get a moped because they don't need to take a test or now an e-bike or e-scooter because it is less effort than cycling and even less regulation than a moped. The same sort in cars tend to kill anyone on two wheels because they don't care past getting where they want to go.
E-bikes and e-scooters have bad stats because they give idiots easier access to use the roads and then they either hurt themselves or get hurt by the ones still in cars. You might as well sell a 'Learn juggling for fun' set with knives in it rather than bean balls. Hell, many people are pretty bad at just walking around without bumping into things or getting in everyone else's way. The trick is finding that balance between Darwinism and Totalitarianism, there is no perfect solution.
Toltec said:
Been there, plus horse riding I do 90% of my riding off road on my emtb, it avoids the idiots in cars and is more fun.
What I was alluding too were the pedestrians that choose a form of transport because it is the easy and convinient option without having any intention of learning how to use it safely. Hence non-bikers that get a moped because they don't need to take a test or now an e-bike or e-scooter because it is less effort than cycling and even less regulation than a moped. The same sort in cars tend to kill anyone on two wheels because they don't care past getting where they want to go.
E-bikes and e-scooters have bad stats because they give idiots easier access to use the roads and then they either hurt themselves or get hurt by the ones still in cars. You might as well sell a 'Learn juggling for fun' set with knives in it rather than bean balls. Hell, many people are pretty bad at just walking around without bumping into things or getting in everyone else's way. The trick is finding that balance between Darwinism and Totalitarianism, there is no perfect solution.
Hmmm. My wife's gone from bicycle to ebike for work. I'd say she's probably less likely to crash on one than me. I do 90% of my riding off road on my emtb, it avoids the idiots in cars and is more fun.What I was alluding too were the pedestrians that choose a form of transport because it is the easy and convinient option without having any intention of learning how to use it safely. Hence non-bikers that get a moped because they don't need to take a test or now an e-bike or e-scooter because it is less effort than cycling and even less regulation than a moped. The same sort in cars tend to kill anyone on two wheels because they don't care past getting where they want to go.
E-bikes and e-scooters have bad stats because they give idiots easier access to use the roads and then they either hurt themselves or get hurt by the ones still in cars. You might as well sell a 'Learn juggling for fun' set with knives in it rather than bean balls. Hell, many people are pretty bad at just walking around without bumping into things or getting in everyone else's way. The trick is finding that balance between Darwinism and Totalitarianism, there is no perfect solution.
A legal ebike doesn't really do much that a bicycle won't. Faster uphill, a bit slower on the flat and downhill (for me at least), less puffed out at the end of it. The 30mph things are a different animal entirely.
monthou said:
Hmmm. My wife's gone from bicycle to ebike for work. I'd say she's probably less likely to crash on one than me.
A legal ebike doesn't really do much that a bicycle won't. Faster uphill, a bit slower on the flat and downhill (for me at least), less puffed out at the end of it. The 30mph things are a different animal entirely.
Just to be clear I wasn't saying you were an idiot! A legal ebike doesn't really do much that a bicycle won't. Faster uphill, a bit slower on the flat and downhill (for me at least), less puffed out at the end of it. The 30mph things are a different animal entirely.
Mine rolls faster downhill than all of my mate's normal bikes, talking mountain bikes again here so road bikes may have different results. Slower on the flat than I would be on a road bike because it is heavy, full suspension and 2.6" knobbly tyres, the motor compensates for that up to 15.5mph though so as you say less puffed. A 20mph limit would be safer for road use by skilled cyclists imho. I get a good workout because I can work hard and sustain it without burning out climbing a hill. Perfect for a commute because you can get up the hills without ending up a sweaty mess, means wearing waterproofs is more viable for the same reason. The 30mph ones with throttles are mopeds really and should be treated as such,.
E scooters are caught in between, too fast for pedestrian safety to be used on footpaths and too slow on roads, the larger and quicker ones are probably better for road and cycle paths, but they are then larger and heavier so lose that portability to take into work, a shop or carry up stairs. I think it would be better to have road rated ones that can be used on a car/bike licence as a moped effectively, then pedestrian rated ones with a 10mph limit for use on pavements and cycle lanes only.
Since Christmas e scooters have appeared in large numbers. Coventry is full of them, even rural villages seem to have them, you see them chained up outside the village shop.
Seem to be 3 types of users, kids fun things, nipping to the shop, chemist, etc and commuting.
Police appear uninterested, as do the public, scooter users attract no more attention than a cyclist.
I suspect this genie is well and truly out the bottle.
Seem to be 3 types of users, kids fun things, nipping to the shop, chemist, etc and commuting.
Police appear uninterested, as do the public, scooter users attract no more attention than a cyclist.
I suspect this genie is well and truly out the bottle.
I guess the interest will depend on the rate at which the riders become patients or organ donors
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-ne...
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-ne...
Willhire89 said:
I guess the interest will depend on the rate at which the riders become patients or organ donors
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-ne...
...because I always check the accident rates before slinging my leg over a bicycle / ebike / motorcycle. https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-ne...
Or not.
Accident rates might deter some - but all teenagers are immortal.
edited for spulling
Edited by monthou on Wednesday 17th February 12:37
monthou said:
Willhire89 said:
I guess the interest will depend on the rate at which the riders become patients or organ donors
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-ne...
...because I always check the accident rates before slinging my leg over a biycle / ebike / motorcycycle. https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-ne...
Or not.
Accident rates might deter some - but all teenagers are immortal.
If people find it a convenient, affordable, and practical method of urban transport, then it will simply keep on growing regardless of accidents.
We have approximately 1800 deaths and 25,000 serious injuries on the roads each year, and it doesn't seem to put many people off cycling, walking or driving.
As for the government/police cracking down on scooters, I think the genie is already out of the bottle as others have said. It won't be getting put back in anytime soon.
The government have made statements that scooters could be the answer to 'environmentally friendly, affordable, and convenient urban transport' and they have introduced trials all over the country. I really don't think they will be performing any massive U-Turn on this matter.
“Man walking down the street falls over. No one to walk ever again as it’s deemed too dangerous”
The fact reports are so rare that they have a news article on one woman getting hurt shows the assumed dangers are probably not as bad as some hoped. For example, how many people have died riding bikes in the same time period? I don’t need to look up the statistic to know it is significantly higher.
The fact reports are so rare that they have a news article on one woman getting hurt shows the assumed dangers are probably not as bad as some hoped. For example, how many people have died riding bikes in the same time period? I don’t need to look up the statistic to know it is significantly higher.
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