Unauthorised right of way and land development
Discussion
borcy said:
What is it that he really wants, buy the big plot and build on it or sell his strip of land for a reasonable price?
Ultimately he wants to build something, either the full site or just a single dwelling to return to the UK to. He is the one being reasonable all things considered - we know of other developers who'd have waded in, put up a brick wall, given A the bill for it and then play the waiting game as ultimately over the next 10 or so years A will likely change hands again when they pop their clogs or go into care.Planning will not be an issue, homework has already been done. Its just the amount of neighbours on along the border who could hold things up in the short term.
As I mentioned earlier I suspect other family members have done some simple math, seen the pound signs and have shot the gate without getting everything lined up - unfortunately for Dad I think there is going to be a lot of emotion on their side which will make getting a sensible deal painful in the short-term. Its also very unlikely they would have bought D just for extra garden, since they bought A from Dad they have ripped up all lawns, veg patches and borders and have replaced with a sea of flagstone paving (thanks again Google!) and again given their age, no-one would want the upkeep of a garden that size in their senior years.
The ransom strip gifted to me is also tied up in a lot of family emotion, Dad bought a large large plot with his mate in the 80's, they put a road and services up one side then split the remainder into three, one plot each, the third sold which ended up halving the overall land cost. Dad took the top plot which bordered onto a pair of huge, landlocked gardens. The owners of said gardens wanted to combine their end sections into one .75 acre building plot and use Dad's road and services, they offered peanuts and got the hump when Cambridge v Stokes was trotted out as the starting point for negotiations. From their perspective, they saw that their land was essentially worth 99% of the equation - coming back from that to reality can be very hard for folk, especially when the saw themselves as superior to Dad (I think at the time one was a head teacher, the other in accountancy)
32 years later the gardens are still owned by the same families, they've gone to the expense in recent years of applying for development permission so I'm sure the desire is still there to extract value and I suspect that when the first of the two owners pops their clogs the topic will be resumed by the remaining family members. Given the current market and location there's at least £400k to be had by developing the site with two chalet bungalows, there is room for third at a push. If I see something out of it great, if I don't I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
You may find yourself in the position of the relatives of A deciding to dig their heels in & when the current occupants die simply renting the property out & waiting until your Dad pops his clogs.
ETA. This dispute is likely to affect the value of A+D & put off potential buyers, making it a rental property more likely.
This boils down to he's missed out on buying a bit of land which he had long term designs on, is miffed, & instead of moving on has decided to be awkward in an attempt to force the owners of plot D to sell it to him.
The more you put the less I see 'reasonable'. Especially as you've now told us this isn't the only property he's decided to keep a 'ransom strip' on.
ETA. This dispute is likely to affect the value of A+D & put off potential buyers, making it a rental property more likely.
This boils down to he's missed out on buying a bit of land which he had long term designs on, is miffed, & instead of moving on has decided to be awkward in an attempt to force the owners of plot D to sell it to him.
The more you put the less I see 'reasonable'. Especially as you've now told us this isn't the only property he's decided to keep a 'ransom strip' on.
Edited by paintman on Sunday 23 February 18:46
CSLchappie said:
borcy said:
What is it that he really wants, buy the big plot and build on it or sell his strip of land for a reasonable price?
Ultimately he wants to build something, either the full site or just a single dwelling to return to the UK to. He is the one being reasonable all things considered - we know of other developers who'd have waded in, put up a brick wall, given A the bill for it and then play the waiting game as ultimately over the next 10 or so years A will likely change hands again when they pop their clogs or go into care.Planning will not be an issue, homework has already been done. Its just the amount of neighbours on along the border who could hold things up in the short term.
As I mentioned earlier I suspect other family members have done some simple math, seen the pound signs and have shot the gate without getting everything lined up - unfortunately for Dad I think there is going to be a lot of emotion on their side which will make getting a sensible deal painful in the short-term. Its also very unlikely they would have bought D just for extra garden, since they bought A from Dad they have ripped up all lawns, veg patches and borders and have replaced with a sea of flagstone paving (thanks again Google!) and again given their age, no-one would want the upkeep of a garden that size in their senior years.
The ransom strip gifted to me is also tied up in a lot of family emotion, Dad bought a large large plot with his mate in the 80's, they put a road and services up one side then split the remainder into three, one plot each, the third sold which ended up halving the overall land cost. Dad took the top plot which bordered onto a pair of huge, landlocked gardens. The owners of said gardens wanted to combine their end sections into one .75 acre building plot and use Dad's road and services, they offered peanuts and got the hump when Cambridge v Stokes was trotted out as the starting point for negotiations. From their perspective, they saw that their land was essentially worth 99% of the equation - coming back from that to reality can be very hard for folk, especially when the saw themselves as superior to Dad (I think at the time one was a head teacher, the other in accountancy)
32 years later the gardens are still owned by the same families, they've gone to the expense in recent years of applying for development permission so I'm sure the desire is still there to extract value and I suspect that when the first of the two owners pops their clogs the topic will be resumed by the remaining family members. Given the current market and location there's at least £400k to be had by developing the site with two chalet bungalows, there is room for third at a push. If I see something out of it great, if I don't I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
I don't quite get thought process behind all this 'holding out' type of thinking.
Not a dig
just not something I quite understand. As has been said above - there is scope for both parties to get something or nothing.
The owners of A were able to use their local knowledge or simple location to purchase D.
The value of that is the price your dad has to pay and that in my mind is buying the plot between £150-£175K. That sounds a bargain to me.
If they really don't want to sell, even if they offer your dad £75K for the ransom strip - surely that's a good deal for your dad and good for them?
The owners of A were able to use their local knowledge or simple location to purchase D.
The value of that is the price your dad has to pay and that in my mind is buying the plot between £150-£175K. That sounds a bargain to me.
If they really don't want to sell, even if they offer your dad £75K for the ransom strip - surely that's a good deal for your dad and good for them?
borcy said:
Why not sell the strip and look elsewhere?
I don't quite get thought process behind all this 'holding out' type of thinking.
Not a dig just not something I quite understand.
I'm sure if thats the only viable option and they offer a reasonable sum then Dad would likely cede and move on.I don't quite get thought process behind all this 'holding out' type of thinking.
Not a dig
just not something I quite understand. As to the 'holding out' mentality, its actually quite sound and rational business sense. Let's use the example of the other plot, Dad invested significantly in building the drive (a condition of planning before any groundwork started on the houses) laying the drains, connecting to the mains sewers, having telephone, gas and electric supplies brought up from the main road up to the top of the plot - even going back 30 odd years, it was not cheap, nor easy to do for a self builder. Someone then comes along and expects that use of services and access should be given to them at fraction of the cost to implement them and accepted commercial value because simply, they are greedy and do not wish to pay you. You choice is accede and give them what they want and take a pittance for it, or say thanks, lets talk again when you are willing to discuss at accepted market terms.
Outside of this context though, land in the UK is a finite resource, its value it only ever going to go in one direction over the long term, as well as a mechanism to extract more value from ones investment, it also gives you an option to participate in future developments where use of your property is required.
And as I've said previously, I am not involved or have any financial interest in this, I'm just watching from the sidelines.
CSLchappie said:
borcy said:
Why not sell the strip and look elsewhere?
I don't quite get thought process behind all this 'holding out' type of thinking.
Not a dig just not something I quite understand.
I'm sure if thats the only viable option and they offer a reasonable sum then Dad would likely cede and move on.I don't quite get thought process behind all this 'holding out' type of thinking.
Not a dig
just not something I quite understand. As to the 'holding out' mentality, its actually quite sound and rational business sense. Let's use the example of the other plot, Dad invested significantly in building the drive (a condition of planning before any groundwork started on the houses) laying the drains, connecting to the mains sewers, having telephone, gas and electric supplies brought up from the main road up to the top of the plot - even going back 30 odd years, it was not cheap, nor easy to do for a self builder. Someone then comes along and expects that use of services and access should be given to them at fraction of the cost to implement them and accepted commercial value because simply, they are greedy and do not wish to pay you. You choice is accede and give them what they want and take a pittance for it, or say thanks, lets talk again when you are willing to discuss at accepted market terms.
Outside of this context though, land in the UK is a finite resource, its value it only ever going to go in one direction over the long term, as well as a mechanism to extract more value from ones investment, it also gives you an option to participate in future developments where use of your property is required.
And as I've said previously, I am not involved or have any financial interest in this, I'm just watching from the sidelines.
What if there is no agreement for 5/10/15 years? Not move back to the UK ? That's the sort of thing I mean.
I find this thread very interesting.
OP, I can understand your Dad’s feeling of disbelief on finding that he only just missed out on the plot. It’s a bummer!
It sounds like you Dad has the skills and knowledge that the new owners need in order to develop the plot. Although they have been proved to be bulls
tters I wonder if there is a way where both parties could do a joint venture? The new owners of D no doubt had a disappointing moment when they realised the super cheap deal they had made was not the end of the story.
There is money to be made and a shame not to realise the value in the land and the access.
OP, I can understand your Dad’s feeling of disbelief on finding that he only just missed out on the plot. It’s a bummer!
It sounds like you Dad has the skills and knowledge that the new owners need in order to develop the plot. Although they have been proved to be bulls
tters I wonder if there is a way where both parties could do a joint venture? The new owners of D no doubt had a disappointing moment when they realised the super cheap deal they had made was not the end of the story.There is money to be made and a shame not to realise the value in the land and the access.
Durzel said:
I'm a bit perplexed as to the logic in hanging on to plots of land for decades, and passing them on to your kids, when the supposed objective is to build on/opposite it. 30+ years is a long damn time to wait to achieve that aim.
On the contrary it’s what every decent developer will do. Land banks have a deep intrinsic value and form a great part of an investment portfolio. You only need one or two of them to come good and the entire portfolio can have an investment return that would make a hedge fund manager weep. They also tend to grow steadily in value even without the big wins. Owner of A can argue that they got it super cheap because the girl was out of Uni and soft behind the ears, but I would be arguing that without access, there is no way to develop and therefore it was only worth £25k and she knew that the only way to make double that was to find £100k to buy access, and therefore just decided to take the £25k.
Plot D with no access is worth £25k.
Plot D with access is worth £175-200k.
B & C without Plot D is probably worth £10k.
So, it comes down to what Plot B, C and D are worth combined, and who is going to pay the most to own them all.
Everyone could well out of it, but everyone will always feel hard done by too.
Plot D with no access is worth £25k.
Plot D with access is worth £175-200k.
B & C without Plot D is probably worth £10k.
So, it comes down to what Plot B, C and D are worth combined, and who is going to pay the most to own them all.
Everyone could well out of it, but everyone will always feel hard done by too.
Edited by gizlaroc on Monday 24th February 19:32
Is there a risk that an access point to D is made through A, bypassing the need to for B to D ?
I'd also be worried about builders turning up and using B to D for access, get signage up to make clear private property, no access.
Also, start looking for examples of what similar pieces of land have sold for, gives a starting point for negotiations.
I'd also be worried about builders turning up and using B to D for access, get signage up to make clear private property, no access.
Also, start looking for examples of what similar pieces of land have sold for, gives a starting point for negotiations.
Edited by NGRhodes on Monday 24th February 19:39
Centurion07 said:
Not sure how why people are accusing the dad of being a profiteering pain-in-the-arse holding the other party to ransom when the other party bought their little patch for a song AND without doing their homework and realising they had no proper access to the site...?
I don't agree that dad is a PIA. He's just one of 2 in the party and all they need to do is agree on a deal from which both benefit.A did procure D and there is a value to that. I don't think they got it at a song. They've paid about the right price.
Leylandeye said:
Centurion07 said:
Not sure how why people are accusing the dad of being a profiteering pain-in-the-arse holding the other party to ransom when the other party bought their little patch for a song AND without doing their homework and realising they had no proper access to the site...?
I don't agree that dad is a PIA. He's just one of 2 in the party and all they need to do is agree on a deal from which both benefit.A did procure D and there is a value to that. I don't think they got it at a song. They've paid about the right price.
They need both parts for it to have proper value.
His father would have had a result as he also has the access.
gizlaroc said:
His father would have had a result as he also has the access.
But dad wasn't in a position to be able to purchase D as he was overseas.It's a classic case of needing both bits to get something out of it.
If they work together, they can still make something of this. I don't think playing the waiting game is the way to go with this.
I saw an experiment on the TV once. A couple of chimpanzees were in a cage. The two ends of a rope were passed through the bars. If both ends of the rope were pulled simultaneously, the rope would drag some food up to the bars and the apes could reach it. If just one of them pulled the only thing they would get was the other end of the rope.
It took them about five minutes to figure it out.
It took them about five minutes to figure it out.
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