Legal advice on deferred agreement for care fees
Discussion
200Plus Club said:
thenortherner said:
The situation is the home is owned outright and she lived alone until very recently with care workers visiting at intervals during the day.
There are no savings and there's no private pension either.
The care package, benefits and personal independence payments received when living in her own home came to around £450 per week.
We're awaiting another financial assessment to be carried out but we're told the local authority will fund a residential placement up to £500 a week maximium. The letter I received recently on an initial assessment, taking into account her outgoings, property, pension and savings etc says her own personal contribution will be around £70 per week.
On top of this there are top up fees of £110 a week. So all in, £180 a week.
The finance team explained to me that if the property was sold the money in the bank would be taken into account during the financial assessment. And as such there'd be no local funding. Similarly, if the property was rented they'd take this into account and reduce the funding accordingly.
So it seems the best financial decision is to leave the property empty!? Else you're effectively turning away free funding.
So far as I understand it, we're only deferring the shortfall of the £500 plus the top up fee as a combined figure. Unless I'm getting things very confused and we're actually deferring £430 a week (balance left of the £500 a week) plus the top up fees?
Desperately trying to reach somebody from the financial team at the council but I'm not getting calls returned.
Advice we were given similarly at the time was the house couldn't be sold from under you if there was someone else living there as their main residence who was aged 60 or over. A charge could be put on the property by the local authority for whenever it was eventually sold. Don't know if of any help etc but was given by solicitors. Worth getting advice anyway I guess, we spoke to my relatives regular solicitor and they had a specialist within their firm who did this week in week out.There are no savings and there's no private pension either.
The care package, benefits and personal independence payments received when living in her own home came to around £450 per week.
We're awaiting another financial assessment to be carried out but we're told the local authority will fund a residential placement up to £500 a week maximium. The letter I received recently on an initial assessment, taking into account her outgoings, property, pension and savings etc says her own personal contribution will be around £70 per week.
On top of this there are top up fees of £110 a week. So all in, £180 a week.
The finance team explained to me that if the property was sold the money in the bank would be taken into account during the financial assessment. And as such there'd be no local funding. Similarly, if the property was rented they'd take this into account and reduce the funding accordingly.
So it seems the best financial decision is to leave the property empty!? Else you're effectively turning away free funding.
So far as I understand it, we're only deferring the shortfall of the £500 plus the top up fee as a combined figure. Unless I'm getting things very confused and we're actually deferring £430 a week (balance left of the £500 a week) plus the top up fees?
Desperately trying to reach somebody from the financial team at the council but I'm not getting calls returned.
It all started when his mother went into care and he was turfed out so the house could be sold, he was then homeless and alone. From the sound of it he had a job at the time as well.
I don't think people realise how difficult it is when a parent goes into care. We've been through it twice and even if you get council funding it doesn't cover everything. Even then it's just funding, you have to find the home and keep on top of it.
I'm my MIL's case one of the homes simply dumped her when she was in hospital. They said she was at risk of falling (she was disabled) so they couldn't have her back! You then have to find a home that will take her. You stop being choosy and just hope you can find anything that will put a roof over her head.
98elise said:
You then have to find a home that will take her. You stop being choosy and just hope you can find anything that will put a roof over her head.
Unfortunately it is the reality for many trying to find homes for loved ones. We were lucky in that when my mother had to move to a home, she had already been going to them for day care, so A) she knew most of the staff ( a lot less upheaval especially as she had dementia) B) we knew the place and knew she would be looked after.When one of my wife's aunt had to go into hospital and it was assessed she couldn't go back to her isolated house(rented), it was a case of getting her in somewhere quickly. Where she is is not ideal, but family can't afford the "better" places and even if they could you have to wait until someone dies. (the one they looked at hadn't had a death in over 12 months)
I'm in this situation right now.
My mother was 97 last April and living on her own in a retirement flat and had been having private carers for, but as her health deteriorated we had to keep upping the number of carer visits she had.
She also had at least 4 visits a week from family but we couldn't realistically do more and it still meant she was on her own with just a Careline button for back-up, so in July my sister and I moved her to a private care home. Although she was very reluctant at first, after a few months she settled in well, thankfully.
Fortunately we had LPAs in place so we put her flat on the market, and accepted an offer a few weeks ago. But her savings ran out around that time so her income was less than the fees £3,293 a month) and we had to ask the care home to defer part of their charges. They agreed to do that, but only 3 for months, so now we're just hoping the sale goes through in time.
Totally different to the situation for my former OH whose Mum was living in a council bungalow. They did an assessment, agreed she needed to be in residential care and placed her there at their expense - we just had to clear the bungalow within a week.
Being separated with no dependants I sometimes think I might as well sell the house, spend the proceeds and get the State to pay when the time comes.
My mother was 97 last April and living on her own in a retirement flat and had been having private carers for, but as her health deteriorated we had to keep upping the number of carer visits she had.
She also had at least 4 visits a week from family but we couldn't realistically do more and it still meant she was on her own with just a Careline button for back-up, so in July my sister and I moved her to a private care home. Although she was very reluctant at first, after a few months she settled in well, thankfully.
Fortunately we had LPAs in place so we put her flat on the market, and accepted an offer a few weeks ago. But her savings ran out around that time so her income was less than the fees £3,293 a month) and we had to ask the care home to defer part of their charges. They agreed to do that, but only 3 for months, so now we're just hoping the sale goes through in time.
Totally different to the situation for my former OH whose Mum was living in a council bungalow. They did an assessment, agreed she needed to be in residential care and placed her there at their expense - we just had to clear the bungalow within a week.
Being separated with no dependants I sometimes think I might as well sell the house, spend the proceeds and get the State to pay when the time comes.
Yes that is what annoyed me about all of this. My dads brother was a feckless so & so, who lived in a council house did naff all. When he needed to go into a home, the state picked up the bill. My parents who had never had well payed jobs still managed to own their own bungalow and have savings. Were expected to pay.
I understand the state can't be expected to pay for everything, but it does seem unfair.
I understand the state can't be expected to pay for everything, but it does seem unfair.
When my father went into a secure unit in 2005 the fee was £850 a week.
He had vascular Dementia.
I sold his house and used proceeds to buy an insurance policy from Saga for £55,000. The policy was geared to pay £20,000 per annum towards his fees, per annum until he passed away.
I reckon he overheard us talking about it, as. He lived for 5 years, so the policy for us was good
He had vascular Dementia.
I sold his house and used proceeds to buy an insurance policy from Saga for £55,000. The policy was geared to pay £20,000 per annum towards his fees, per annum until he passed away.
I reckon he overheard us talking about it, as. He lived for 5 years, so the policy for us was good
BertBert said:
barian said:
It is arguably worse than that. Where care homes have local authority and self-funded clients, the latter are usually charged higher fees and so are subsidising the former.
£890 v £570 in my case. A huge f
king difference.I tried the same thing with my Mum, different LA though, and they wouldn't hear of it.
To the OP, hope you get everything sorted ok. Rather selfishly, I am glad this thread has been started as it's an eye opener with some of the solutions offered for care funding. I have one parent in care, one at home who I am carer for (dementia) and I still work full time but also have carers coming in as it was just too overwhelming trying to balance both.
Id be interested to know people's thoughts who can offer view, how do you know if you should sell a property asset or simply rent out to fund the care fees, what other implications should be considered? I would never of thought of the renting idea before but that probably comes with its own challenges and extra work too. I am also going through the legal process...deputy rather than poa and it's much more longer than poa but only option for me. As an fyi I used Age UK to find a good solicitor to deal with the application for deputy
Id be interested to know people's thoughts who can offer view, how do you know if you should sell a property asset or simply rent out to fund the care fees, what other implications should be considered? I would never of thought of the renting idea before but that probably comes with its own challenges and extra work too. I am also going through the legal process...deputy rather than poa and it's much more longer than poa but only option for me. As an fyi I used Age UK to find a good solicitor to deal with the application for deputy
thenortherner said:
All,
Many thanks for the responses.
I'll be back to update after next Monday's meeting.
How did it go?Many thanks for the responses.
I'll be back to update after next Monday's meeting.
I am fast approaching this situation. My mother has been in a care home with vascular Dementia for about a year and a half. Her savings lasted about 8 months and the state has been paying ever since. About £950 a week.
My 90 year old father is really struggling at home on his own. He has carers in twice a day and is getting steadily weaker. I don’t think it will be long before he also has to move into care.
So, presumably we will have to sell their house to fund both of the care homes!
Seems crazy.
I think we shall seek professional advice when the time comes to see what our options are.
This thread has been very valuable in giving me an insight as to what could be possible. So thanks for that.
Hope you manage to get things sorted, I don't have any more advice to add but I have been through it all twice now with grandmother's on both sides of the family, who both ultimately suffered with dementia following other medical episodes.
The result has been on both occasions that their savings were all absorbed and homes sold to fund care home fees leaving little more than enough to fund the funerals ultimately in both cases, both have since passed between a decade ago and a few years ago. Neither were what you would call wealthy but were honest hard working people who saved and owned their own homes with very modest pensions. Especially on my fathers side my grandma was always very tight frankly with her money but with the best intentions as she saw it as my dad's inheritance she wanted to pass on.
Sadly in the end there was next to nothing.
It does make you think it's not worth trying to be careful with your money as you get into older age, I tell my parents to enjoy it while they can.
The result has been on both occasions that their savings were all absorbed and homes sold to fund care home fees leaving little more than enough to fund the funerals ultimately in both cases, both have since passed between a decade ago and a few years ago. Neither were what you would call wealthy but were honest hard working people who saved and owned their own homes with very modest pensions. Especially on my fathers side my grandma was always very tight frankly with her money but with the best intentions as she saw it as my dad's inheritance she wanted to pass on.
Sadly in the end there was next to nothing.
It does make you think it's not worth trying to be careful with your money as you get into older age, I tell my parents to enjoy it while they can.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think you're thinking of 7yrs for gifts for inheritence tax?LA's used to be pretty laid back about property handed to kids as long as it was at least 6 months, and there was no indication care might be required at the time. They're almost certain to delve into it now, and they can go back as far as they like.
Apologies for the delayed response.
In all honesty, with everything that's going on in the world, the legal side of things had taken a back seat. The care and her being safe within the home had taken priority. Fortunately, the made the decision to stop all visitations ahead of being forced to and were very on the ball with things. And with it being only a small home with maybe 30 residents, the number of staff working there would be comparitively small versus other larger settings which I'm sure's also helped with containment.
PPE was a problem but fortunately I managed to source them some through work.
To date there's not been a single case in the home and that's the main thing. I'm very grateful for that. For the most part she does seem pretty content and in her own bubble to an extent but has definitely sussed something's adrift and the visits and contact have stopped but is unable to articulate her concern. The ability to form a sentence was lost some time ago but often you can work out what's being thought and what's wanted to be said.
The home's a 120 mile round trip from my home and last week was the first time I've been up since February. They're allowing conversations and interaction which involve her being in the dining room or lounge, and me being stood in bush outside, with the window open trying as best you can to have a conversation and interaction. I'm really pleased I was instantly recognised and with a big smile too but ultimately I don't know if it did more harm than good. My mum became confused as to why I wasn't coming in and kept signalling to the front door. Eventually the door was opened by a careworker - it's locked as you'd imagine - to let somebody in, she saw me and tried to come outside and had to be restrained which caused her to become angry which was upsetting to witness.
We've had the results of the financial assessment and now know how much we've to contribute each month. I reckon the value of the house will see her being able to stay there for the next 4-5 years at this level of contribution at which point there'll be nothing. We've put £10K away seperately for the funeral. The home have said that when the money runs out they would not look to essentially chuck her out and leave us having to go to a lesser home - there are some harrowing ones out there - where top up fees are not required.
We've heard nothing from the solicitor since February and in fairness we've not been in touch either. I'm sure a bill will be forthcoming at some point.
What's next, now that things are beginning to come around, is to see the numbers behind the numbers. By that I mean, if it's been calculated that she can contribute £x per month and therefore defer £x per month, I want to see the calcuations.
I don't see this as unreasonable and cannot see why there would not be transparency here. It can only be a set of calculations which show income/benefits per month, what she is allowed to keep (a figure we proposed) for clothes/haircuts etc, and the shortfall.
I'll be getting the solicitor to push the council for this. It cannot be unreasonable to ask for what is essentially the breakdown of payments behind what's basically a fking massive loan.
I can understand the 'spend it now' mentality which is borne out of seeing this sort of thing. It's timed quite well with me really starting to get myself in order financially - I've a seperate thread in the Finance section - particularly around pensions. What I can say is that owning your own home and one of a decent value will pay off in this sort of situation. Whilst there were numerous homes available without top up fees, these would have been the only ones available for us to choose from had there not been an asset that has allowed us to defer the additional top ups that go with the better homes.
Having visited maybe 12 different homes you would not, given the choice, pick those which don't come at a price. Ultimately, the price is our inheritence but I couldn't give to fks about that. Being the power of attorney, and moreso a decent son and human being, the right and only thing to do was to find the best possible care and setting without the slightest thought of inheritence. Doing anything else wasn't ever a consideration.
To all those who are in a similar situation, if I can be of any help then let me know. Send me a private message if you prefer. Best of luck to you and I'll do by best to keep this more updated.
In all honesty, with everything that's going on in the world, the legal side of things had taken a back seat. The care and her being safe within the home had taken priority. Fortunately, the made the decision to stop all visitations ahead of being forced to and were very on the ball with things. And with it being only a small home with maybe 30 residents, the number of staff working there would be comparitively small versus other larger settings which I'm sure's also helped with containment.
PPE was a problem but fortunately I managed to source them some through work.
To date there's not been a single case in the home and that's the main thing. I'm very grateful for that. For the most part she does seem pretty content and in her own bubble to an extent but has definitely sussed something's adrift and the visits and contact have stopped but is unable to articulate her concern. The ability to form a sentence was lost some time ago but often you can work out what's being thought and what's wanted to be said.
The home's a 120 mile round trip from my home and last week was the first time I've been up since February. They're allowing conversations and interaction which involve her being in the dining room or lounge, and me being stood in bush outside, with the window open trying as best you can to have a conversation and interaction. I'm really pleased I was instantly recognised and with a big smile too but ultimately I don't know if it did more harm than good. My mum became confused as to why I wasn't coming in and kept signalling to the front door. Eventually the door was opened by a careworker - it's locked as you'd imagine - to let somebody in, she saw me and tried to come outside and had to be restrained which caused her to become angry which was upsetting to witness.
We've had the results of the financial assessment and now know how much we've to contribute each month. I reckon the value of the house will see her being able to stay there for the next 4-5 years at this level of contribution at which point there'll be nothing. We've put £10K away seperately for the funeral. The home have said that when the money runs out they would not look to essentially chuck her out and leave us having to go to a lesser home - there are some harrowing ones out there - where top up fees are not required.
We've heard nothing from the solicitor since February and in fairness we've not been in touch either. I'm sure a bill will be forthcoming at some point.
What's next, now that things are beginning to come around, is to see the numbers behind the numbers. By that I mean, if it's been calculated that she can contribute £x per month and therefore defer £x per month, I want to see the calcuations.
I don't see this as unreasonable and cannot see why there would not be transparency here. It can only be a set of calculations which show income/benefits per month, what she is allowed to keep (a figure we proposed) for clothes/haircuts etc, and the shortfall.
I'll be getting the solicitor to push the council for this. It cannot be unreasonable to ask for what is essentially the breakdown of payments behind what's basically a f
king massive loan.I can understand the 'spend it now' mentality which is borne out of seeing this sort of thing. It's timed quite well with me really starting to get myself in order financially - I've a seperate thread in the Finance section - particularly around pensions. What I can say is that owning your own home and one of a decent value will pay off in this sort of situation. Whilst there were numerous homes available without top up fees, these would have been the only ones available for us to choose from had there not been an asset that has allowed us to defer the additional top ups that go with the better homes.
Having visited maybe 12 different homes you would not, given the choice, pick those which don't come at a price. Ultimately, the price is our inheritence but I couldn't give to f
ks about that. Being the power of attorney, and moreso a decent son and human being, the right and only thing to do was to find the best possible care and setting without the slightest thought of inheritence. Doing anything else wasn't ever a consideration.To all those who are in a similar situation, if I can be of any help then let me know. Send me a private message if you prefer. Best of luck to you and I'll do by best to keep this more updated.
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