Leon Briggs Death in custody misconduct hearing collapses.
Discussion
Psycho Warren said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Was he detained 136MHA?? Or arrested for a Criminal Offence.
Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
Police can detain under section 136. Doesn't need to be any specific criminal activity although the nature of needing to detain someone may well lead to the patient resisting or using violence which in itself could be criminal. Given that he was taken to a Police Station and placed in a cell, to me it would suggest the latter.
A lot of MH hospitals used to have specific 136 suites so the police can bring people like that to be assessed.
It is a pathetic total and utter failure of the MH system that means the police are basically being forced to be temporary MH nurses which simply is not a job they are trained for nor meant to be doing.
However while the public continue to ridicule mental health and it continues to be a non-vote winner, nothing will change. MH services have gone massively backwards in the last 10-15 years due to chronic underfunding.
Interesting article on the whole matter here -
https://mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/i...
Edited by Bigends on Friday 12th March 16:55
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
Greendubber said:
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Greendubber said:
Pegscratch said:
On another subject, does this whole Brexit thing mean no more davidball? That in itself has to be seen as worth any fallout from it, surely.
Banned! Whilst amusing it was always the same predictable rubbish that didn't actually contribute anything.
Glad he was banned.
He was S.136.
[/quote]
Ah.
That does raise a few questions about Bedfordshire Police's actions, and the lack of MH Services in the area.
Although prior to 2017 - In this section “place of safety” means residential accommodation provided by a local social services authority under Part III of the M1National Assistance Act 1948F8. . . , a hospital as defined by this Act, a police station, [F9an independent hospital or care home] for mentally disordered persons or any other suitable place the occupier of which is willing temporarily to receive the patient.
Although, happy to be corrected.
[/quote]
Ah.
That does raise a few questions about Bedfordshire Police's actions, and the lack of MH Services in the area.
Although prior to 2017 - In this section “place of safety” means residential accommodation provided by a local social services authority under Part III of the M1National Assistance Act 1948F8. . . , a hospital as defined by this Act, a police station, [F9an independent hospital or care home] for mentally disordered persons or any other suitable place the occupier of which is willing temporarily to receive the patient.
Although, happy to be corrected.
Nibbles_bits said:
He was S.136.
Ah.That does raise a few questions about Bedfordshire Police's actions, and the lack of MH Services in the area.
Although prior to 2017 - In this section “place of safety” means residential accommodation provided by a local social services authority under Part III of the M1National Assistance Act 1948F8. . . , a hospital as defined by this Act, a police station, [F9an independent hospital or care home] for mentally disordered persons or any other suitable place the occupier of which is willing temporarily to receive the patient.
Although, happy to be corrected.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
A medical expert told the inquest Leon would have survived, beyond reasonable doubt, if he had been taken to hospital rather than police custody.
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
Anyone detained 136 MHA taken to A&E still has to be monitored by the Police until an assessment takes place.
Assessments do take place in A&E in my trust........just very very slowly.
And, it pains me to say this, but the MH team will use "underhand" tactics to ensure the Police maintain responsibility as long as possible.
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
A medical expert told the inquest Leon would have survived, beyond reasonable doubt, if he had been taken to hospital rather than police custody.
Nibbles_bits said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
Anyone detained 136 MHA taken to A&E still has to be monitored by the Police until an assessment takes place.
Assessments do take place in A&E in my trust........just very very slowly.
And, it pains me to say this, but the MH team will use "underhand" tactics to ensure the Police maintain responsibility as long as possible.
They phone and ask us to move patients between facilities because they're violent. Well use promethius patient transfer then, you know the people who are contracted to do it!! Too easy to rely on the police though.
Nibbles_bits said:
I know the Police CAN detain using 136MHA, and as I said it's not a criminal offence and there doesn't need to be one for the Police to attend.
But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
I dont think there have ever been ambulance staff with training to deal with violent people, nor MH ambulance staff to "detain" patients who refuse to go to hospital. But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
So for the initial taking and delivering to a "safe place" not sure there has ever been anyone else doing it?
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
A medical expert told the inquest Leon would have survived, beyond reasonable doubt, if he had been taken to hospital rather than police custody.
He also agreed the lorry driver, from Luton, should have been driven to hospital in an ambulance rather than being taken into custody by police.
John Beggs QC, representing Bedfordshire Police, said police officers had planned to take Mr Briggs to hospital after they had "calmed him down" in the cell.
Psycho Warren said:
Nibbles_bits said:
I know the Police CAN detain using 136MHA, and as I said it's not a criminal offence and there doesn't need to be one for the Police to attend.
But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
I dont think there have ever been ambulance staff with training to deal with violent people, nor MH ambulance staff to "detain" patients who refuse to go to hospital. But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
So for the initial taking and delivering to a "safe place" not sure there has ever been anyone else doing it?
k. Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
A medical expert told the inquest Leon would have survived, beyond reasonable doubt, if he had been taken to hospital rather than police custody.
He also agreed the lorry driver, from Luton, should have been driven to hospital in an ambulance rather than being taken into custody by police.
John Beggs QC, representing Bedfordshire Police, said police officers had planned to take Mr Briggs to hospital after they had "calmed him down" in the cell.
Greendubber said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
eldar said:
It looks like a failure of the mental health services when a mental health crisis has to be dealt with by the police rather than the NHS.
136's always used to be taken straight to a medical place of safety rather than Police stations. Had he gone straight to A and E - would he have still died? The idea behind sectioning was to get someone in immediate need of care and control to a place of safety - which Luton nick clearly wasnt.Do nothing and you'll get roasted, do something and get roasted. Can't win.
ANYWHERE can be a Place of Safety under the Mental Health Act as long as the occupier is temporarily willing to receive the patient. This is stated in s135(6) of the Mental Health Act. Of course, the Act also declares that hospitals and police stations are places of safety (PoS); and the Code of Practice requires a joint protocol to exist which indicates which PoS should be used and in which circumstances. So if a hospital A&E department agrees to accept someone for assessment, treatment – in what sense are they still not a Place of Safety? It’s wordsmithery.
Anyone detained 136 MHA taken to A&E still has to be monitored by the Police until an assessment takes place.
Assessments do take place in A&E in my trust........just very very slowly.
And, it pains me to say this, but the MH team will use "underhand" tactics to ensure the Police maintain responsibility as long as possible.
They phone and ask us to move patients between facilities because they're violent. Well use promethius patient transfer then, you know the people who are contracted to do it!! Too easy to rely on the police though.
Having a suicidal patient, on hospital grounds, being spoken to (face to face) by the trust's MH team. But asking the Police to detain the patient 136 MHA.
Making the decision that a patient needs to be detained (being vague as whether they had been), and arranging secure transport........only for the patient to leave.
Cancel the secure transport. Call the Police.
Having located him, the trust (within eyesight) refused to send anyone, refused to arrange secure transport, and refused to find a place of safety.
There but for the grace of god. When I think of some of the maniacs I have been involved in restraining.
One man had 6 officers at a time doing an hour about in a cell. ( No one could do more than an hour due to exhaustion).
Mental health provision in this country needs a radical rethink, but there are no votes in it so it won't happen.
One man had 6 officers at a time doing an hour about in a cell. ( No one could do more than an hour due to exhaustion).
Mental health provision in this country needs a radical rethink, but there are no votes in it so it won't happen.
Greendubber said:
Psycho Warren said:
Nibbles_bits said:
I know the Police CAN detain using 136MHA, and as I said it's not a criminal offence and there doesn't need to be one for the Police to attend.
But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
I dont think there have ever been ambulance staff with training to deal with violent people, nor MH ambulance staff to "detain" patients who refuse to go to hospital. But SHOULD the Police be put in the position to use MHA in the first place?
So for the initial taking and delivering to a "safe place" not sure there has ever been anyone else doing it?
k. Our job is to protect the vulnerable. If I'm sent to someone in MH crisis, I'll do my best to help them. If that means using force.....then so be it.
It's the trying to find a place of safety afterwards (and I could have another rant about that!), it's transporting to the nearest place of safety (upto 35miles away for my team), the monitoring of them for hours in A&Es because there are only 2 staff members on the MH Team, with 3 patients being detained 136.
But if someone is at home, in crisis, and calls Ambulance or a Mental Health Team.........why is that a Police matter??
Nibbles_bits said:
Absolutely.
Our job is to protect the vulnerable. If I'm sent to someone in MH crisis, I'll do my best to help them. If that means using force.....then so be it.
It's the trying to find a place of safety afterwards (and I could have another rant about that!), it's transporting to the nearest place of safety (upto 35miles away for my team), the monitoring of them for hours in A&Es because there are only 2 staff members on the MH Team, with 3 patients being detained 136.
But if someone is at home, in crisis, and calls Ambulance or a Mental Health Team.........why is that a Police matter??
It's sad to see this topic of MHA v Police. Most of the questions and points raised are the exact same ones I saw over 35 years ago when I started my service. I've seen and dealt with most of the situations described above. Trying to get NHS staff to do their job and take their responsibility was at times frustrating to say the least. Worst one was when our force doctor had to call in her qualified friend during the night as a favour to carry out a full assessment in the cells because the hospital refused to call out the relevant people from their side! No decent human being - police included - want to see people in MH crisis locked in a cell.Our job is to protect the vulnerable. If I'm sent to someone in MH crisis, I'll do my best to help them. If that means using force.....then so be it.
It's the trying to find a place of safety afterwards (and I could have another rant about that!), it's transporting to the nearest place of safety (upto 35miles away for my team), the monitoring of them for hours in A&Es because there are only 2 staff members on the MH Team, with 3 patients being detained 136.
But if someone is at home, in crisis, and calls Ambulance or a Mental Health Team.........why is that a Police matter??
Fortunately a few years prior to retirement I was also lucky to see the relevant agencies finally get their heads together and develop a good working protocol which resulted in next to zero s.136 arrests coming into custody. Part of this protocol included having a police officer as a permanent mental health liaison based in the main MH facility. I'd hate to think things have gone back full circle.
Nibbles_bits said:
But if someone is at home, in crisis, and calls Ambulance or a Mental Health Team.........why is that a Police matter??
why arent there professionwlly trained in restraint porters/nurses etc within access of a crisis team or local nhs area precisely for patient transport? such people are trained to.do that for work in secure hospitals and specialist transport. need for.restraint and.potential violence is very common when people are sectioned against thier will. it shouldnt be the polices responsibility at all unless stopped while committing a crime. and even then for only as lomg as necessary to transfer to nhs staff. i wonder if its going to take a very serious incident where several officers are seriously hurt or killed for change to happen?
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