Leon Briggs Death in custody misconduct hearing collapses.
Discussion
Psycho Warren said:
Nibbles_bits said:
But if someone is at home, in crisis, and calls Ambulance or a Mental Health Team.........why is that a Police matter??
why arent there professionwlly trained in restraint porters/nurses etc within access of a crisis team or local nhs area precisely for patient transport? such people are trained to.do that for work in secure hospitals and specialist transport. need for.restraint and.potential violence is very common when people are sectioned against thier will. it shouldnt be the polices responsibility at all unless stopped while committing a crime. and even then for only as lomg as necessary to transfer to nhs staff. i wonder if its going to take a very serious incident where several officers are seriously hurt or killed for change to happen?
Bigends said:
I wonder if it'll take a bloke having a mental crisis in the street subsequently dying in Police cells for change to happen?
Thomas Orchard, Exeter Heavitree police station 3 October 2012. Life Support switched off as brain dead 10 October 2012.Seems neglect paid a part in the death of both Thomas Orchard and Leon Briggs.
The wording of the Constable's Oath doesn't have an asterisk at the end with a footnote saying officers can treat the mentally ill differently from other people.
Edited by carinaman on Saturday 13th March 01:04
carinaman said:
Bigends said:
I wonder if it'll take a bloke having a mental crisis in the street subsequently dying in Police cells for change to happen?
Thomas Orchard, Exeter Heavitree police station 3 October 2012. Life Support switched off as brain dead 10 October 2012.Seems neglect paid a part in the death of both Thomas Orchard and Leon Briggs.
The wording of the Constable's Oath doesn't have an asterisk at the end with a footnote saying officers can treat the mentally ill differently from other people.
BBC article said:
Sgt Jan Kingshott, 45, and detention officers Simon Tansley, 39, and Michael Marsden, 56, denied gross negligence manslaughter.
A jury cleared all three men of the charges following a trial at Bristol Crown Court.
A jury cleared all three men of the charges following a trial at Bristol Crown Court.
carinaman said:
The wording of the Constable's Oath doesn't have an asterisk at the end with a footnote saying officers can treat the mentally ill differently from other people.
The police deal with an enormous amount of serious, risky and difficult MH matters on a daily basis. Not that I'd expect you to have any idea about the real world.
carinaman said:
Thomas Orchard, Exeter Heavitree police station 3 October 2012. Life Support switched off as brain dead 10 October 2012.
Seems neglect paid a part in the death of both Thomas Orchard and Leon Briggs.
The wording of the Constable's Oath doesn't have an asterisk at the end with a footnote saying officers can treat the mentally ill differently from other people.
Don't be a plonker. There is a huge amount of law and precedence governing how police deal with mentally ill people, precisely so that they are NOT treated the same as other people.Seems neglect paid a part in the death of both Thomas Orchard and Leon Briggs.
The wording of the Constable's Oath doesn't have an asterisk at the end with a footnote saying officers can treat the mentally ill differently from other people.
Edited by carinaman on Saturday 13th March 01:04
XCP said:
We used to get called fairly regularly to the local hospital psychiatric wing when a violent patient was smashing up the place.
Just cheap hired muscle.
As I say, the whole system is broken but no-one cares. Probably even less now post covid.
But would you begrudge attending the local A& E to assist their security with a violent patient? Again, I would suggest you are being viewed as 'cheap hired muscle'.Just cheap hired muscle.
As I say, the whole system is broken but no-one cares. Probably even less now post covid.
Iv'e been a mental health nurse almost 16 years, entirely working on inpatient wards. Seven years of that on a pretty chaotic ward in London. I could count on one hand the number of times we called police to help us with violent patient - always an absolute last resort for us.
Similar where I am now - working on medium security wards for last 6 years (so dealing with the equivalent of category B prisoners). We have some tricky characters - some have committed pretty horrific murders, for example.
What do we have to control them when they 'kick off'? Basically, training in restraint, which is pretty watered down with the focus on the safety of the patient nowadays - woe betide if we were to ever restrain anyone in the prone position for example.
So when that murderer who's serving 30 years for stabbing someone 70 times is coming for us we have to hold him in a very polite way, and lower him into a supine position onto the floor if required (in theory - probably doesn't quite happen like that - reasonable force still applies etc).
Despite this, it's probably 2 or 3 years since we've called the police to assist - almost always the patient will have fashioned a weapon - the police will obviously attend with tasers, often dogs and have access to mechanical restrains such as cuffs. We have no such luxuries at our disposal.
andy118run said:
XCP said:
We used to get called fairly regularly to the local hospital psychiatric wing when a violent patient was smashing up the place.
Just cheap hired muscle.
As I say, the whole system is broken but no-one cares. Probably even less now post covid.
But would you begrudge attending the local A& E to assist their security with a violent patient? Again, I would suggest you are being viewed as 'cheap hired muscle'.Just cheap hired muscle.
As I say, the whole system is broken but no-one cares. Probably even less now post covid.
Iv'e been a mental health nurse almost 16 years, entirely working on inpatient wards. Seven years of that on a pretty chaotic ward in London. I could count on one hand the number of times we called police to help us with violent patient - always an absolute last resort for us.
Similar where I am now - working on medium security wards for last 6 years (so dealing with the equivalent of category B prisoners). We have some tricky characters - some have committed pretty horrific murders, for example.
What do we have to control them when they 'kick off'? Basically, training in restraint, which is pretty watered down with the focus on the safety of the patient nowadays - woe betide if we were to ever restrain anyone in the prone position for example.
So when that murderer who's serving 30 years for stabbing someone 70 times is coming for us we have to hold him in a very polite way, and lower him into a supine position onto the floor if required (in theory - probably doesn't quite happen like that - reasonable force still applies etc).
Despite this, it's probably 2 or 3 years since we've called the police to assist - almost always the patient will have fashioned a weapon - the police will obviously attend with tasers, often dogs and have access to mechanical restrains such as cuffs. We have no such luxuries at our disposal.
andy118run said:
XCP said:
We used to get called fairly regularly to the local hospital psychiatric wing when a violent patient was smashing up the place.
Just cheap hired muscle.
As I say, the whole system is broken but no-one cares. Probably even less now post covid.
But would you begrudge attending the local A& E to assist their security with a violent patient? Again, I would suggest you are being viewed as 'cheap hired muscle'.Just cheap hired muscle.
As I say, the whole system is broken but no-one cares. Probably even less now post covid.
Iv'e been a mental health nurse almost 16 years, entirely working on inpatient wards. Seven years of that on a pretty chaotic ward in London. I could count on one hand the number of times we called police to help us with violent patient - always an absolute last resort for us.
Similar where I am now - working on medium security wards for last 6 years (so dealing with the equivalent of category B prisoners). We have some tricky characters - some have committed pretty horrific murders, for example.
What do we have to control them when they 'kick off'? Basically, training in restraint, which is pretty watered down with the focus on the safety of the patient nowadays - woe betide if we were to ever restrain anyone in the prone position for example.
So when that murderer who's serving 30 years for stabbing someone 70 times is coming for us we have to hold him in a very polite way, and lower him into a supine position onto the floor if required (in theory - probably doesn't quite happen like that - reasonable force still applies etc).
Despite this, it's probably 2 or 3 years since we've called the police to assist - almost always the patient will have fashioned a weapon - the police will obviously attend with tasers, often dogs and have access to mechanical restrains such as cuffs. We have no such luxuries at our disposal.
After 45 minutes, we managed to talk the patient around.
I guess it depends on staff, training and management.
Nibbles_bits said:
I've attended our local MH Facility........ because staff couldn't sedate a patient. They wanted us to arrest and restrain the patient.
After 45 minutes, we managed to talk the patient around.
I guess it depends on staff, training and management.
In that particular case, perhaps as a new face who the patient had no back history with, you had an advantage in being able to develop a rapport with them to calm them down. Plus as you're a cop the patient would realise that, to paraphrase The Borg, resistance is futile. I've been in your shoes a good few times and some you win, some you lose. Glad this one was a positive case for you. After 45 minutes, we managed to talk the patient around.
I guess it depends on staff, training and management.
Rushjob said:
Nibbles_bits said:
I've attended our local MH Facility........ because staff couldn't sedate a patient. They wanted us to arrest and restrain the patient.
After 45 minutes, we managed to talk the patient around.
I guess it depends on staff, training and management.
In that particular case, perhaps as a new face who the patient had no back history with, you had an advantage in being able to develop a rapport with them to calm them down. Plus as you're a cop the patient would realise that, to paraphrase The Borg, resistance is futile. I've been in your shoes a good few times and some you win, some you lose. Glad this one was a positive case for you. After 45 minutes, we managed to talk the patient around.
I guess it depends on staff, training and management.
Greendubber said:
Police dogs in a MH facility, really??
Actually, I said 'often dogs' which is obviously not the case.I can imagine a police dog in such a scenario - small corridors, small rooms, lots of people milling about, is rarely very useful.
I was thinking of a specific incident a few years back where we had a patient locked in his trashed room holding various lumps of wood.
Unluckily for him the police were a few yards away in one of the hospital's disused buildings doing some training stuff so were there pretty much instantly. I remember a couple of dog handlers coming on the ward but pretty much standing well away down the end of the corridor with their dogs while the other officers quickly sorted things.
andy118run said:
Greendubber said:
Police dogs in a MH facility, really??
Actually, I said 'often dogs' which is obviously not the case.I can imagine a police dog in such a scenario - small corridors, small rooms, lots of people milling about, is rarely very useful.
I was thinking of a specific incident a few years back where we had a patient locked in his trashed room holding various lumps of wood.
Unluckily for him the police were a few yards away in one of the hospital's disused buildings doing some training stuff so were there pretty much instantly. I remember a couple of dog handlers coming on the ward but pretty much standing well away down the end of the corridor with their dogs while the other officers quickly sorted things.
Greendubber said:
andy118run said:
Greendubber said:
Police dogs in a MH facility, really??
Actually, I said 'often dogs' which is obviously not the case.I can imagine a police dog in such a scenario - small corridors, small rooms, lots of people milling about, is rarely very useful.
I was thinking of a specific incident a few years back where we had a patient locked in his trashed room holding various lumps of wood.
Unluckily for him the police were a few yards away in one of the hospital's disused buildings doing some training stuff so were there pretty much instantly. I remember a couple of dog handlers coming on the ward but pretty much standing well away down the end of the corridor with their dogs while the other officers quickly sorted things.
Edited by singlecoil on Saturday 13th March 15:28
XCP said:
I think there is a world of difference between attending A and E in order to deal with violence, in what is effectively a public place, and dealing with violent patients in a psychiatric unit.
Yup. Most calls to psychiatric units are for "MFH"/ concern for welfare/ gone walkabout.i.e. the patient walked out and the staff couldn't stop them. Not talking about secure units (usually !).
I've been discussing this elsewhere.
One opinion (based on fact), is that the Police have agreed that excessive force was used on Leon, and have apologised for the failings in custody, so they are responsible for his death.
I'm regards to Leon not going to hospital, the opinion is that if the Police hadn't used excessive force, he wouldn't have needed treatment.
At the end of the day Leon was failed by the services involved.
Unfortunately it often takes extreme events for knowledge gaps and bad practice to be identified.
I'm sure that Leon's tragic death has in some way contributed to the training and knowledge that Police Officers now have about ABD.
One opinion (based on fact), is that the Police have agreed that excessive force was used on Leon, and have apologised for the failings in custody, so they are responsible for his death.
I'm regards to Leon not going to hospital, the opinion is that if the Police hadn't used excessive force, he wouldn't have needed treatment.
At the end of the day Leon was failed by the services involved.
Unfortunately it often takes extreme events for knowledge gaps and bad practice to be identified.
I'm sure that Leon's tragic death has in some way contributed to the training and knowledge that Police Officers now have about ABD.
Nibbles_bits said:
...One opinion (based on fact), is that the Police have agreed that excessive force was used on Leon, and have apologised for the failings in custody, so they are responsible for his death...
I don't think you can draw that conclusion. It would be more reasonable to say that they were part of a chain of events which led to his death, not that they were responsible for it.singlecoil said:
Nibbles_bits said:
...One opinion (based on fact), is that the Police have agreed that excessive force was used on Leon, and have apologised for the failings in custody, so they are responsible for his death...
I don't think you can draw that conclusion. It would be more reasonable to say that they were part of a chain of events which led to his death, not that they were responsible for it."Yeah, but, the Police apologised so they dones it"
ked heart.I worked in our ops room taking 101/999 calls. A civilian.
We were, in effect, the go-to organisation for everything.
We had calls for fires, ambulance (non emergency),water leaks, civil incidents like “ you must go and collect money I am owed”. If I politely told the caller no then I could easily have a complaint made about me.
Patterns were evident in many types of situations.
Friday afternoon after 4pm was a popular time for requests by social services, health etc to request police attend for welfare checks on their clients. They usually resulted from case meetings earlier in the day but dragging on so their staff were finishing work and couldn’t attend. It got to the stage where senior officers were stepping in to speak to them about their apparent buck passing. I and other colleagues had interesting conversations with these people and the recorded conversations were clearly showing buck passing. These organisations would voice budget cuts lack of staff as excuses. Their answer was to let the police pick up THEIR shortfall. Just before I left there we were in consultation with the Ambulance Service about injury assessment and using police vehicles to get injured people to A&E due to shortages of ambulances.
We used to have discussions about mental health related incidents. They are very difficult to deal with due to reasons such as unpredictability, health, safety of the person AND anyone else.
We used to get regular callers with drug, alcohol, mental health problems. By gaining a rapport with them you could often help them without an officer attending or an escalation of the call. Luckily nothing untoward happened to them that would mean we were held negligent. You needed a good understanding of the regular caller but would still arrange attendance in quite a few instances. Arse covering in a way but in the end a duty of care.
Damned if you do and pilloried if you don’t.
Do I miss it?
Yes and no.
We were, in effect, the go-to organisation for everything.
We had calls for fires, ambulance (non emergency),water leaks, civil incidents like “ you must go and collect money I am owed”. If I politely told the caller no then I could easily have a complaint made about me.
Patterns were evident in many types of situations.
Friday afternoon after 4pm was a popular time for requests by social services, health etc to request police attend for welfare checks on their clients. They usually resulted from case meetings earlier in the day but dragging on so their staff were finishing work and couldn’t attend. It got to the stage where senior officers were stepping in to speak to them about their apparent buck passing. I and other colleagues had interesting conversations with these people and the recorded conversations were clearly showing buck passing. These organisations would voice budget cuts lack of staff as excuses. Their answer was to let the police pick up THEIR shortfall. Just before I left there we were in consultation with the Ambulance Service about injury assessment and using police vehicles to get injured people to A&E due to shortages of ambulances.
We used to have discussions about mental health related incidents. They are very difficult to deal with due to reasons such as unpredictability, health, safety of the person AND anyone else.
We used to get regular callers with drug, alcohol, mental health problems. By gaining a rapport with them you could often help them without an officer attending or an escalation of the call. Luckily nothing untoward happened to them that would mean we were held negligent. You needed a good understanding of the regular caller but would still arrange attendance in quite a few instances. Arse covering in a way but in the end a duty of care.
Damned if you do and pilloried if you don’t.
Do I miss it?
Yes and no.
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