Black box insurance and advisory speed limits
Discussion
PixelpeepZ4 said:
i understand insurance and risk, and the requirement to make as much money with the minimum chance of having to pay out - but they are robbing new drivers of the opportunity to learn proper road craft..
I think a young driver pushing the limits of his own capabilities or the limits of his car's capabilities on their own/late at night is possibly the worst way of them learning proper roadcraft. I'd suggest that you were fortunate in not causing any serious injury or damage and it was more luck rather than judgement. Yes we all made mistakes, yes many of us have been lucky (quite a few people weren't). And yes, let's encourage a higher standard of driving but let's do it in a proper safe manner (Pass Plus/IAM/RoSPA), nit by suggesting it's Ok for them to have a hoon when they think nobody's around.PixelpeepZ4 said:
I've made a few mistakes on the roads, i've ran out of talent a few times too.. thankfully never resulting in any serious injury or damage to my car - i only ever pushed the boundaries on empty roads late at night, learning, reacting and perfecting how i kept the car on the road.
this 'training' in my opinion has saved me having more serious accidents when something out of my control happens.
Stats show that drivers, having had a year or two with a BB, are less likely to be involved in accidents when they no longer have the BB than those who never had a BB. So that appears to fly in the face of your theory. this 'training' in my opinion has saved me having more serious accidents when something out of my control happens.
PixelpeepZ4 said:
i understand insurance and risk, and the requirement to make as much money with the minimum chance of having to pay out - but they are robbing new drivers of the opportunity to learn proper road craft.
I wonder if you'd say that if you got hit head on at 60mph by a new driver "learning proper roadcraft". 
Solocle said:
If you want to learn the limits of your car, trackdays!
But that only teaches you the limits on a perfectly smooth surface made for racing.You've got to be able to learn how to steer into a slide caused by hitting a pothole, or from swerving to avoid a car overtaking a cyclist
xjay1337 said:
I've had one crash myself. I went into the Back of a Civic in my first year of driving. I wasn't paying attention - my own fault & lesson learnt. Ironically a black box would not have helped at all but had radar cruise and town-response braking been fitted (like on the Mk7 Golf) then I wouldn't have crashed!
What might also have helped would be if your black box had picked up all the other occasions where your lack of attention had led to you brake or steer harshly.xjay1337 said:
BertBert said:
No-one is saying it does teach. It's a tool to modify behaviour. There are many tools to modify behaviour that don't teach including fiscal and social engineering, behavioural psychology etc.
Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
No there are no studies that I can find for this.Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
I don't think any are done.
Would be interesting if one was done.
RSTurboPaul said:
https://u17ccctrust.org/research
https://u17ccctrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...
https://u17ccctrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...
U17CC report said:
While the national overall pass rate for the DVSA test is 46% in 2017/18, Pathfinder Students achieved a first time pass rate of 63% with a further 26% passing on their second attempt while Car Club graduates have a 79% first time pass rate with the Club’s top young drivers achieving a rate of 84%.
...
Given that the objective of the Pathfinder Project is to reduce the rate of KSI accidents amongst novice drivers, it is very encouraging to see a low collision rate for our Students of only 6% compared with 20% in the first driving year for the general population.
....
It is clear that the superior test performance extends beyond the Practical Test, with our respondents’ first time [theory tes] pass rate at 85% versus the national average pass rate of 48.7%* (2017/18).
...
Similarly, the Hazard Perception First Time pass rate for our respondents is 94% against the estimated national average pass rate of 50% (no Government statistics on this test appear to have been published*).
...
Of the participants in the survey only a single driver (under 2%) had been convicted of a traffic offence compared with nearly 24%** of all drivers nationally, and even then only of a single offence.**
....
With the average cost per fatal collision on UK roads having increased to more than £2m (in 2016*), then the potential saving from reducing young driver accident rates from 20% to 6%, as evidenced above, would save the UK economy £472m** per year in addition to the human cost of losing loved ones.
...
Given that the objective of the Pathfinder Project is to reduce the rate of KSI accidents amongst novice drivers, it is very encouraging to see a low collision rate for our Students of only 6% compared with 20% in the first driving year for the general population.
....
It is clear that the superior test performance extends beyond the Practical Test, with our respondents’ first time [theory tes] pass rate at 85% versus the national average pass rate of 48.7%* (2017/18).
...
Similarly, the Hazard Perception First Time pass rate for our respondents is 94% against the estimated national average pass rate of 50% (no Government statistics on this test appear to have been published*).
...
Of the participants in the survey only a single driver (under 2%) had been convicted of a traffic offence compared with nearly 24%** of all drivers nationally, and even then only of a single offence.**
....
With the average cost per fatal collision on UK roads having increased to more than £2m (in 2016*), then the potential saving from reducing young driver accident rates from 20% to 6%, as evidenced above, would save the UK economy £472m** per year in addition to the human cost of losing loved ones.
RSTurboPaul said:
xjay1337 said:
BertBert said:
No-one is saying it does teach. It's a tool to modify behaviour. There are many tools to modify behaviour that don't teach including fiscal and social engineering, behavioural psychology etc.
Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
No there are no studies that I can find for this.Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
I don't think any are done.
Would be interesting if one was done.
RSTurboPaul said:
https://u17ccctrust.org/research
https://u17ccctrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...
https://u17ccctrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...
U17CC report said:
While the national overall pass rate for the DVSA test is 46% in 2017/18, Pathfinder Students achieved a first time pass rate of 63% with a further 26% passing on their second attempt while Car Club graduates have a 79% first time pass rate with the Club’s top young drivers achieving a rate of 84%.
...
Given that the objective of the Pathfinder Project is to reduce the rate of KSI accidents amongst novice drivers, it is very encouraging to see a low collision rate for our Students of only 6% compared with 20% in the first driving year for the general population.
....
It is clear that the superior test performance extends beyond the Practical Test, with our respondents’ first time [theory tes] pass rate at 85% versus the national average pass rate of 48.7%* (2017/18).
...
Similarly, the Hazard Perception First Time pass rate for our respondents is 94% against the estimated national average pass rate of 50% (no Government statistics on this test appear to have been published*).
...
Of the participants in the survey only a single driver (under 2%) had been convicted of a traffic offence compared with nearly 24%** of all drivers nationally, and even then only of a single offence.**
....
With the average cost per fatal collision on UK roads having increased to more than £2m (in 2016*), then the potential saving from reducing young driver accident rates from 20% to 6%, as evidenced above, would save the UK economy £472m** per year in addition to the human cost of losing loved ones.
...
Given that the objective of the Pathfinder Project is to reduce the rate of KSI accidents amongst novice drivers, it is very encouraging to see a low collision rate for our Students of only 6% compared with 20% in the first driving year for the general population.
....
It is clear that the superior test performance extends beyond the Practical Test, with our respondents’ first time [theory tes] pass rate at 85% versus the national average pass rate of 48.7%* (2017/18).
...
Similarly, the Hazard Perception First Time pass rate for our respondents is 94% against the estimated national average pass rate of 50% (no Government statistics on this test appear to have been published*).
...
Of the participants in the survey only a single driver (under 2%) had been convicted of a traffic offence compared with nearly 24%** of all drivers nationally, and even then only of a single offence.**
....
With the average cost per fatal collision on UK roads having increased to more than £2m (in 2016*), then the potential saving from reducing young driver accident rates from 20% to 6%, as evidenced above, would save the UK economy £472m** per year in addition to the human cost of losing loved ones.
pathfinder stats page said:
Whilst the 2014 Pathfinder Survey was, of necessity, very small
(17 responses from 24 students), the 2018 Survey has 54 responders,
giving much greater confidence in the results:
whilst the results are encouraging, you have to be mindful of a) such a small sample base, and b) a level of confirmation bias, given the results are exclusively from their members.
if its working then thats cool, and yes maybe my lack of incident was more luck than judgement, but i'm sure i am not alone in what was the norm back in the early 90's.
Countdown said:
There's nothing to stop people having both advanced driving lessons AND having a black box.
There isn’t. However, how many of us have had advanced driver training? How many want it? I certainly didn’t, as a new teenage driver. I’d just spent a few months being told how to do things, the last thing I wanted was another round of being bossed around. I certainly don’t want any now. If a black box is the only method that means I could get some freedom by having a car, then I’d put up with it for a while until I could free myself from it.
unident said:
Countdown said:
There's nothing to stop people having both advanced driving lessons AND having a black box.
There isn’t. However, how many of us have had advanced driver training? How many want it? I certainly didn’t, as a new teenage driver. I’d just spent a few months being told how to do things, the last thing I wanted was another round of being bossed around. I certainly don’t want any now. If a black box is the only method that means I could get some freedom by having a car, then I’d put up with it for a while until I could free myself from it.
There are, of course, plenty of people who don't give a s
t about learning anything more than the bare minimum they have to, and then take that attitude onto the public road. It is that situation that IMO clearly illustrates the benefits of a more difficult test that includes attitudinal training/testing and what are currently called 'advanced` driving' skills - those who can't be bothered may well not be able to get through it, and if they can, there is at least some (better) chance that they will retain appropriate skills and mindset. Why don't you want any additional training now? Are you a person who does not like being told what to do? Are you already Class 1 or equivalent? Do you think you will get a black box so that you can (apparently) make sure you drive safely if you don't want to undertake any self-improvement?
unident said:
What is the demographic of the Pathfinder students? Are they representative of the U.K. as a whole? If not it’s difficult to extrapolate them straight out to the whole of the teenage population. I presume this is the promotional blurb from the company to support their business, so likely to cherrypick the stats they want to show.
PixelpeepZ4 said:
a survey of 54 people? there are roughly 1.2 million drivers in the uk under 21, and in total 33.6million licence holders.
whilst the results are encouraging, you have to be mindful of a) such a small sample base, and b) a level of confirmation bias, given the results are exclusively from their members.
if its working then thats cool, and yes maybe my lack of incident was more luck than judgement, but i'm sure i am not alone in what was the norm back in the early 90's.
Cautions re: a small dataset and surveys being commissioned by those wanting a good outcome noted whilst the results are encouraging, you have to be mindful of a) such a small sample base, and b) a level of confirmation bias, given the results are exclusively from their members.
if its working then thats cool, and yes maybe my lack of incident was more luck than judgement, but i'm sure i am not alone in what was the norm back in the early 90's.
Even so, 20% to 6% is, what, a 70% reduction in accident rates?
That is surely worth of further investigation and increased trials led from a government level.
Of course, it would mean giving people more skills and trusting them to do things properly, rather than applying legislation and technology to track and monitor and punish, so I am not surprised young driver restrictions (such as stepped licences, night term curfews and black boxes) seem to be the only solution on the table.
Myself, I will be getting any of my kids driving at their earliest possible opportunity, so they can master the actual physical driving of a vehicle and have it engrained subconsciously, before being put out on the open road and having to learn how to deal with a constantly changing environment full of many morons.
mmm-five said:
But that only teaches you the limits on a perfectly smooth surface made for racing.
You've got to be able to learn how to steer into a slide caused by hitting a pothole, or from swerving to avoid a car overtaking a cyclist
That's a very narrow view and one I largely disagree with. The way to learn car control and dynamics is to actually do it. Take a car to its limit of grip. Understand what that is like. What is heavy braking to the limit of grip and beyond like? Perfectly learnable on a track or skid pan. Dangerous to learn on the road. However, if you look at "advanced driving" like Roadcraft, it has little or nothing to do with car dynamics or control anyway. It achieves its aims of better and safer driving through observation, information, planning and acting. Maximising speed and progress is a long way up the advanced driving learning.You've got to be able to learn how to steer into a slide caused by hitting a pothole, or from swerving to avoid a car overtaking a cyclist
Bert
RSTurboPaul said:
Posted previously:
Sorry to be mega-quotey.RSTurboPaul said:
https://u17ccctrust.org/research
https://u17ccctrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...
https://u17ccctrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12...
U17CC report said:
While the national overall pass rate for the DVSA test is 46% in 2017/18, Pathfinder Students achieved a first time pass rate of 63% with a further 26% passing on their second attempt while Car Club graduates have a 79% first time pass rate with the Club’s top young drivers achieving a rate of 84%.
...
Given that the objective of the Pathfinder Project is to reduce the rate of KSI accidents amongst novice drivers, it is very encouraging to see a low collision rate for our Students of only 6% compared with 20% in the first driving year for the general population.
....
It is clear that the superior test performance extends beyond the Practical Test, with our respondents’ first time [theory tes] pass rate at 85% versus the national average pass rate of 48.7%* (2017/18).
...
Similarly, the Hazard Perception First Time pass rate for our respondents is 94% against the estimated national average pass rate of 50% (no Government statistics on this test appear to have been published*).
...
Of the participants in the survey only a single driver (under 2%) had been convicted of a traffic offence compared with nearly 24%** of all drivers nationally, and even then only of a single offence.**
....
With the average cost per fatal collision on UK roads having increased to more than £2m (in 2016*), then the potential saving from reducing young driver accident rates from 20% to 6%, as evidenced above, would save the UK economy £472m** per year in addition to the human cost of losing loved ones.
...
Given that the objective of the Pathfinder Project is to reduce the rate of KSI accidents amongst novice drivers, it is very encouraging to see a low collision rate for our Students of only 6% compared with 20% in the first driving year for the general population.
....
It is clear that the superior test performance extends beyond the Practical Test, with our respondents’ first time [theory tes] pass rate at 85% versus the national average pass rate of 48.7%* (2017/18).
...
Similarly, the Hazard Perception First Time pass rate for our respondents is 94% against the estimated national average pass rate of 50% (no Government statistics on this test appear to have been published*).
...
Of the participants in the survey only a single driver (under 2%) had been convicted of a traffic offence compared with nearly 24%** of all drivers nationally, and even then only of a single offence.**
....
With the average cost per fatal collision on UK roads having increased to more than £2m (in 2016*), then the potential saving from reducing young driver accident rates from 20% to 6%, as evidenced above, would save the UK economy £472m** per year in addition to the human cost of losing loved ones.
Knowing the U17CC well (in the past), it is a fabulous organisation and great fun to do. Considering how much learning the U17s do if they stay the course it's not surprising that they get to the road as better drivers (even if the sample size is tiddly). But it's pretty costly in time of kids, parents and volunteer organisers. So to my earlier comments a far better RoI is to use a black box. Sadly the U17CC skills do not reduce insurance costs of new drivers.
Bert
BertBert said:
That's a very narrow view and one I largely disagree with. The way to learn car control and dynamics is to actually do it. Take a car to its limit of grip. Understand what that is like. What is heavy braking to the limit of grip and beyond like? Perfectly learnable on a track or skid pan. Dangerous to learn on the road. However, if you look at "advanced driving" like Roadcraft, it has little or nothing to do with car dynamics or control anyway. It achieves its aims of better and safer driving through observation, information, planning and acting. Maximising speed and progress is a long way up the advanced driving learning.
Bert
I know, hence the smiley in the post.Bert
I did a Don Palmer day (a long time ago), and have plenty of track driving in all conditions under my belt (I think wet & cold is best).
Getting it slightly wrong on the exit of Old Hall at Oulton is usually a lot less damaging than the same on a mountain pass road in Scotland - and is a huge reason why you'd should not be driving the same way in those two scenarios.
otolith said:
BertBert said:
Sadly the U17CC skills do not reduce insurance costs of new drivers.
I wonder whether that is because there isn't enough data to draw any conclusions, or because they aren't substantially safer?Personally, I would argue that the benefits of being a better driver go beyond savings on insurance.
otolith said:
I wonder whether that is because there isn't enough data to draw any conclusions, or because they aren't substantially safer?
There's not enough data for insurers to be interested in collecting it or able to draw data conclusions. There may be some discounts from (specialist) insurers in the same way that some other motor clubs get though. It's quite a while since I was involved although with an impending change of employment status, I may have time to go back and help out again.RSTurboPaul said:
Personally, I would argue that the benefits of being a better driver go beyond savings on insurance.
I agree in a sense. It's fabulous to know that the offspring sat next to you behind the wheel who's just passed her test has also been at the wheel of your Caterham or your Evo regularly at Combe at full chat and that she's also planning ahead, using limit points etc.But they are still young and hot-headed. Mind you, if they got to grade X at U17CC, it would feel a huge retrograde step to have a black box other than on cost grounds.
Anyway, enough on the U17CC, great organisation!
Bert
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