The new "rule of six" -- and the absence of an SI
Discussion
There is absolutely no excuse for the use of any emergency powers at all. The pandemic has been going for months. Secretively rushing delegated legislation in at the very last minute is a deliberate authoritarian tactic, as it making it hard for the public to know what is a rule and what is just a suggestion. The Cabinet are talent free lickspittles appointed for their loyalty to Johnson and the deranged Brexit project, the media are supine or complicit, and the opposition faces an overwhelming majority, with very few of the majority MPs possessing principles or backbones. Thus democracy is to all intents and purposes a fiction in the UK at the moment.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
It's also disappointing when the super villains are exposed as being a bit fick.
What do we reckon, Boris to go as soon as the Brexit is done? Give won't need his useful idiot by then.
The truly hideous Gove is obviously plotting against Johnson, but Gove is even more unlikable than Johnson, and would not be as good as Johnson is at duping low-information voters. Also, Johnson loves power and fame above all things, and will do anything to cling to them. I reckon that Johnson will stay, blundering and lying on until 2024. Starmer will then win, but the UK will be a basket case after three years of No Deal Brexit, so Starmer will be about as hampered as Wilson was in 1964 when he had to pick up the pieces after an extended period of Tory chaos. Probably more so.What do we reckon, Boris to go as soon as the Brexit is done? Give won't need his useful idiot by then.
Breadvan72 said:
The truly hideous Gove is obviously plotting against Johnson, but Gove is even more unlikable than Johnson, and would not be as good as Johnson is at duping low-information voters. Also, Johnson loves power and fame above all things, and will do anything to cling to them. I reckon that Johnson will stay, blundering and lying on until 2024. Starmer will then win, but the UK will be a basket case after three years of No Deal Brexit, so Starmer will be about as hampered as Wilson was in 1964 when he had to pick up the pieces after an extended period of Tory chaos. Probably more so.
And that is the best case scenario at this point!
Welshbeef said:
Surely the law that has just been past and comes into effect midnight Monday
Do keep up. The whole point of this thread is that the law has not been passed because there is no Statutory Instrument.What I suspect will happen is that the regulations will be made on Monday morning, be laid before Parliament later in the day, and come into force at some point in the afternoon/ evening.
abzmike said:
And that is the best case scenario at this point!
Yup! Amazing, isn't it.Oh well, there is at least the glimmer of a chance that Biden will win in a few weeks time. Biden is no great shakes, but if he does win the World will be on a much better track than otherwise. Over here , we are stuck for four more long years with the most corrupt and incompetent Government that the UK has had since the eighteenth century.
EW109 said:
Welshbeef said:
Surely the law that has just been past and comes into effect midnight Monday
Do keep up. The whole point of this thread is that the law has not been passed because there is no Statutory Instrument.What I suspect will happen is that the regulations will be made on Monday morning, be laid before Parliament later in the day, and come into force at some point in the afternoon/ evening.
Not merely is it an outrage but I cannot see how the Secretary of State can honestly subscribe to the statement required by section 45R(2) of the Public Health (Control of Diseases) Act to use the negative resolution procedure that "In accordance with section 45R of that Act the Secretary of State is of the opinion that, by reason of urgency, it is necessary to make this instrument without a draft having been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament."
Given the time that has been available to use the positive resolution procedure under section 45Q it is extraordinary that it should be thought appropriate to use the section 45R procedure: but of course it avoids the proper scrutiny which the Act was drafted to ensure. In other words, when Parliament passed the Public Health legislation it thought that, except in cases of true urgency, both Houses would have to approve regulations before they become effective.
I appreciate that this is the arcana of parliamentary procedure. But we have these procedures for a reason and I find it breath taking that a government of any political complexion can think it appropriate to act in this way.
Given the time that has been available to use the positive resolution procedure under section 45Q it is extraordinary that it should be thought appropriate to use the section 45R procedure: but of course it avoids the proper scrutiny which the Act was drafted to ensure. In other words, when Parliament passed the Public Health legislation it thought that, except in cases of true urgency, both Houses would have to approve regulations before they become effective.
I appreciate that this is the arcana of parliamentary procedure. But we have these procedures for a reason and I find it breath taking that a government of any political complexion can think it appropriate to act in this way.
He would do well to reflect on what a previous Conservative leader said in 1975:
"The first duty of Government is to uphold the law. If it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it is inconvenient, if government does that, then so will the governed, and then nothing is safe—not home, not liberty, not life itself."
"The first duty of Government is to uphold the law. If it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it is inconvenient, if government does that, then so will the governed, and then nothing is safe—not home, not liberty, not life itself."
dhutch said:
Valid point to an extent.
However everyone knows what the rule is and how it applies. It's been all over the telly and interwebs, and makes reasonable sense given we have a raising rate going into winter flu season.
The only real thing left is how firmly it can be enforced. Personal I hope reasonably firmly. I also hope for more clamping down on blatant piss taking on those not wearing masks in shops etc.
Daniel
You can't enforce guidance. For an offence to be punishable by sanction it has to be written into law. The UK has always held itself out as a democracy which is governed by the rule of law. Ministerial decree/media pronouncements don't cut it.However everyone knows what the rule is and how it applies. It's been all over the telly and interwebs, and makes reasonable sense given we have a raising rate going into winter flu season.
The only real thing left is how firmly it can be enforced. Personal I hope reasonably firmly. I also hope for more clamping down on blatant piss taking on those not wearing masks in shops etc.
Daniel
As of now I can find nothing on https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ which amends the current limit of a gathering of 30 people - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/684/regul...
There are specific restrictive S.I.s applicable to certain areas of England but no general prohibition. It may well be that the government will get an amendment S.I. passed during the next 36 hours.
We shall see, but why leave it until the eleventh hour? It doesn't inspire confidence in the current bunch of suits in Westminster (or Whitehall for that matter).
The disparity between the various parts of the UK doesn't help either - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51506729
An arbitrary line on a map means that a family will be breaking the law on one side of it but not on the other.
BV72 is right on the money: this government has no respect at all. If you want proof look at the Internal Market Bill. Our standing on the world stage is being flushed down the toilet.
The words United Kingdom will soon become utterly meaningless..
EW109 said:
He would do well to reflect on what a previous Conservative leader said in 1975:
"The first duty of Government is to uphold the law. If it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it is inconvenient, if government does that, then so will the governed, and then nothing is safe—not home, not liberty, not life itself."
He won't though. Cummings has read a few William Gibson novels, and thinks of himself as some sort of savant guru genius. He has no time for anything from the past, for any institution, any tradition or any convention. Johnson, meanwhile, is all about Johnson, gives literally not one s"The first duty of Government is to uphold the law. If it tries to bob and weave and duck around that duty when it is inconvenient, if government does that, then so will the governed, and then nothing is safe—not home, not liberty, not life itself."
t for anything or anyone else, and wouldn't know a principle if one slapped him in the face with a ten day old haddock. Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 30th January 14:03
Chromegrill said:
Not true - the majority of local authorities already have rates above 20 per 100,000 per week, the level considered territory for starting to introduce further control measures. Number of new infections is doubling every week and is currently measured by positive tests at around 3,500 per day (though probably significantly more since people without symptoms are being asked not to come for testing even through they can still transmit it, and lots of people are finding it impossible to even book a test at the moment). The number of tests has roughly doubled since April but has been tailing off in recent weeks so the suggestion that because testing has increased, rates have increased is simply not true.
At its peak in late March when so many people were infected every day (though most were never tested as there wasn't the lab capacity), around 100,000 people every day are thought to have caught it. When only 3500 people caught it yesterday and the numbers are taking a week to double why on earth would anyone be raising concern already?
Because of exponential growth. Over the summer we've just about been keeping a lid on things but now schools and colleges are back, we've had eat out to help out jamming our bars and restaurants and people have been told to get back to work. Let's do the maths and see what happens when that overwhelms the delicate balancing act of keeping the new infection rate stable.
If we don't do anything further at this point to stop its spread in one week's time there will be 7000 new cases a day.
In a fortnight's time, 14,000. Then 28,000. Then 56,000.And by early October we are in similar territory as we were in March, which is not anywhere anyone would ever want to be again I hope.
Already the numbers of people being admitted to hospital with COVID-19 is starting to increase again. And increasing numbers are being admitted to intensive care. More are dying from it now than a week ago. And in Spain, where their cases started to mushroom in July, one or two people a day were dying from this virus at the time. In August that figure was more like 10-20 a day. It's now around 60 a day. And it will keep rising exponentially until it's brought back under control. Don't forget that hospital admissions and deaths follow a few weeks after rises in infections, since for those people who are going to die it takes a while to catch it and get sick enough to die. By the time numbers of new infections are high enough to cause alarm in some people, the people who are going to die will already have been infected.
Given that picture is now emerging across large parts of the country, and given that if we ignore it we know what will happen, if you were in charge at No. 10, how much longer would you choose to wait before introducing the stricter control measures announced this week, and why?
Did you read my stats, taken from the Govt website minutes before I posted. Infection rate below 1 per 10,000. Yes I do understand the doubling issue however it's increasing in some areas only so lock them down don't "lumber" the whole country. This is political to make it easier for the rozzers to break up groups of people, not medical.At its peak in late March when so many people were infected every day (though most were never tested as there wasn't the lab capacity), around 100,000 people every day are thought to have caught it. When only 3500 people caught it yesterday and the numbers are taking a week to double why on earth would anyone be raising concern already?
Because of exponential growth. Over the summer we've just about been keeping a lid on things but now schools and colleges are back, we've had eat out to help out jamming our bars and restaurants and people have been told to get back to work. Let's do the maths and see what happens when that overwhelms the delicate balancing act of keeping the new infection rate stable.
If we don't do anything further at this point to stop its spread in one week's time there will be 7000 new cases a day.
In a fortnight's time, 14,000. Then 28,000. Then 56,000.And by early October we are in similar territory as we were in March, which is not anywhere anyone would ever want to be again I hope.
Already the numbers of people being admitted to hospital with COVID-19 is starting to increase again. And increasing numbers are being admitted to intensive care. More are dying from it now than a week ago. And in Spain, where their cases started to mushroom in July, one or two people a day were dying from this virus at the time. In August that figure was more like 10-20 a day. It's now around 60 a day. And it will keep rising exponentially until it's brought back under control. Don't forget that hospital admissions and deaths follow a few weeks after rises in infections, since for those people who are going to die it takes a while to catch it and get sick enough to die. By the time numbers of new infections are high enough to cause alarm in some people, the people who are going to die will already have been infected.
Given that picture is now emerging across large parts of the country, and given that if we ignore it we know what will happen, if you were in charge at No. 10, how much longer would you choose to wait before introducing the stricter control measures announced this week, and why?
TX.
Terminator X said:
Did you read my stats, taken from the Govt website minutes before I posted. Infection rate below 1 per 10,000. Yes I do understand the doubling issue however it's increasing in some areas only so lock them down don't "lumber" the whole country. This is political to make it easier for the rozzers to break up groups of people, not medical.
TX.
The problem is that a large proportion of the population have demonstrated their inability to understand a requirement to do something as simple as ‘stay at home’. Postcode level regulations don’t work because they are too difficult for the hard of understanding to understand, and there are too many bloody minded twits who think rules don’t apply to them.TX.
Welshbeef said:
Starfighter said:
So on Monday a copper spots a group of 7 people and asks them to disperse. They refuse and the copper issues a fixed penalty. Under what lawful authority is the copper acting?
Surely the law that has just been past and comes into effect midnight MondayThe OP raised a valid question which no one has so far been able to answer. What is the law?
abzmike said:
The problem is that a large proportion of the population have demonstrated their inability to understand a requirement to do something as simple as ‘stay at home’. Postcode level regulations don’t work because they are too difficult for the hard of understanding to understand, and there are too many bloody minded twits who think rules don’t apply to them.
Blimey where have you been for the last few months? Last time I looked the 'simply requirement' was to go back to work or school and we were being bribed with government money to 'help out' by going to the local pub/restaurant for a meal. Shops and other companies have now opened up to try to encourage some form of normality on the financial front. I don't remember anyone saying 'stay at home' (except specific areas) for months.Have you gone back to work? Have you gone out for a meal to support your local businesses?
Maybe you are one of the many bloody minded twits who think rules don’t apply to them.
abzmike said:
Terminator X said:
Did you read my stats, taken from the Govt website minutes before I posted. Infection rate below 1 per 10,000. Yes I do understand the doubling issue however it's increasing in some areas only so lock them down don't "lumber" the whole country. This is political to make it easier for the rozzers to break up groups of people, not medical.
TX.
The problem is that a large proportion of the population have demonstrated their inability to understand a requirement to do something as simple as ‘stay at home’. Postcode level regulations don’t work because they are too difficult for the hard of understanding to understand, and there are too many bloody minded twits who think rules don’t apply to them.TX.
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