Caught with no insurance after midnight expiry
Discussion
Asking for a friends 18 year old son (Yes, really).
He was letting the insurance lapse on his car as he is going away to Uni and will not be taking the car. He spoke to his insurers a week or so prior, and informed them he would not be renewing, and they said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
After the insurance lapsed, he was just going to park the car up on his parents property, SORN it, and then let his dad decide if it was to be kept/sold etc.
He goes to work Friday night, usually finishes around 11pm and lives a 15 minute drive away from his work. His work kept him later to help clean up, and by the time he sets off home in his car it is midnight. He drives for a couple of minutes and then begins to get followed by a police van, who pull him over on his way out of town at about 12:05 and tell him he has no insurance on his car.
They sit him in the back of the van, and tell him they understand the circumstances surrounding the matter, and inform him that if he buys insurance right then and there using his phone they will let him carry on his journey home. So after a brief google, he buys 24 hour insurance for £45, and the police accept this and let him set off home again complete with a stern telling off.
14 days later, an NIP drops though the letterbox saying they intend to prosecute him for driving with no insurance via IN10 code.
He is devastated by this as it will mean that he loses his driving license if he receives 6 points, he will have to re-take a test, and worse, he will likely find it very difficult and prohibitively expensive to obtain insurance again with a 'IN10' offence on his licence.
I would like to make clear:
He knows it is his fault for not understanding or not asking his insurers to clarify the "Your insurance runs out Saturday" statement.
He acknowledges it is his mistake and no one else's.
He acknowledges that he did commit the offence.
Now that we have that out of the way, he wants to know if there is any point in requesting court and pleading his case? Not so he can dispute the offence, but so that he can explain the circumstances and plead for some kind of leniency in his punishment.
Is there any form of discretion regarding the punishment of IN10 offences?
The worst part about all this I suppose is that he's a really good, polite, well behaved kid who only really uses his car to go to work and to sports training, and he's been really knocked for six by this and feels like a criminal, and is now worrying about what will happen when he needs to drive again.
Thanks in advance.
He was letting the insurance lapse on his car as he is going away to Uni and will not be taking the car. He spoke to his insurers a week or so prior, and informed them he would not be renewing, and they said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
After the insurance lapsed, he was just going to park the car up on his parents property, SORN it, and then let his dad decide if it was to be kept/sold etc.
He goes to work Friday night, usually finishes around 11pm and lives a 15 minute drive away from his work. His work kept him later to help clean up, and by the time he sets off home in his car it is midnight. He drives for a couple of minutes and then begins to get followed by a police van, who pull him over on his way out of town at about 12:05 and tell him he has no insurance on his car.
They sit him in the back of the van, and tell him they understand the circumstances surrounding the matter, and inform him that if he buys insurance right then and there using his phone they will let him carry on his journey home. So after a brief google, he buys 24 hour insurance for £45, and the police accept this and let him set off home again complete with a stern telling off.
14 days later, an NIP drops though the letterbox saying they intend to prosecute him for driving with no insurance via IN10 code.
He is devastated by this as it will mean that he loses his driving license if he receives 6 points, he will have to re-take a test, and worse, he will likely find it very difficult and prohibitively expensive to obtain insurance again with a 'IN10' offence on his licence.
I would like to make clear:
He knows it is his fault for not understanding or not asking his insurers to clarify the "Your insurance runs out Saturday" statement.
He acknowledges it is his mistake and no one else's.
He acknowledges that he did commit the offence.
Now that we have that out of the way, he wants to know if there is any point in requesting court and pleading his case? Not so he can dispute the offence, but so that he can explain the circumstances and plead for some kind of leniency in his punishment.
Is there any form of discretion regarding the punishment of IN10 offences?
The worst part about all this I suppose is that he's a really good, polite, well behaved kid who only really uses his car to go to work and to sports training, and he's been really knocked for six by this and feels like a criminal, and is now worrying about what will happen when he needs to drive again.
Thanks in advance.
Can’t comment about whether attending court etc... will help, but seems they said they’d let him continue his journey and didn’t say they’d let him off, though can see their action could have given impression they were letting him off
Anyway best of luck for whichever way it plays out.
Anyway best of luck for whichever way it plays out.
It's probably not what you were hoping to hear, but it seems pretty black and white to me - he was caught using a vehicle on a road without a valid policy of insurance being in place.
He could try to mitigate the penalty but, subject to conviction and an absence of any special reasons, the minimum would be 6 points or a period of disqualification. Neither of these would prevent an IN10 endorsement being applied to his licence.
What surprises me is how quickly the relevant systems updated with his [un]insured status.
All IMHO, of course.
He could try to mitigate the penalty but, subject to conviction and an absence of any special reasons, the minimum would be 6 points or a period of disqualification. Neither of these would prevent an IN10 endorsement being applied to his licence.
What surprises me is how quickly the relevant systems updated with his [un]insured status.
All IMHO, of course.
AIUI No insurance is a black and white situation, you either have it or you don't.
Obviously there are a few cases where a case has been NFA'd due to a insurance company cock up but assuming that is not the case (it is worth obviously double checking that the times *were* correct etc, eg it was 23:59 Friday it was meant to end and not 23:59 Saturday), if he didn't have insurance he didn't have insurance and his only real option unfortunately is to plead guilty.
I don't think given the circumstances that a mitigation statement would help either as that is meant to be for how the fine/points etc will affect others not excuses for how it happened.
Personally I would leave the NIP until the maximum last day before sending it back (Special delivery so you have proof of sending) and pray that he's lucky enough for it to time out. It's unlikely but there is always a chance.
Was he driving at xx:xx on the yy:yy? Yes.
Did he have insurance at that time? No.
Guilty.
That said there can also be the chance that he may win by the police not turning up or the case being dropped before it gets that far. It's unlikely but it does happen.
Obviously there are a few cases where a case has been NFA'd due to a insurance company cock up but assuming that is not the case (it is worth obviously double checking that the times *were* correct etc, eg it was 23:59 Friday it was meant to end and not 23:59 Saturday), if he didn't have insurance he didn't have insurance and his only real option unfortunately is to plead guilty.
I don't think given the circumstances that a mitigation statement would help either as that is meant to be for how the fine/points etc will affect others not excuses for how it happened.
Personally I would leave the NIP until the maximum last day before sending it back (Special delivery so you have proof of sending) and pray that he's lucky enough for it to time out. It's unlikely but there is always a chance.
normalbloke said:
Plead his case, he has nothing to lose.
Except money. It will cost a lot more to do so and because it is a black and white offence (you either have it or not) it's not like something like DWDCA where it's "opinion" or speeding where if it happened or not could be called into question. Was he driving at xx:xx on the yy:yy? Yes.
Did he have insurance at that time? No.
Guilty.
That said there can also be the chance that he may win by the police not turning up or the case being dropped before it gets that far. It's unlikely but it does happen.
That was quite a succession of negative circumstances...delayed at work....real cop following him at the exact time the insurance ran out and yes, the insurers removing the car bang on the second the policy ran out.
As others have said, the hard fact is when the police stopped him, he was uninsured. They have thought about it and decided to prosecute.
I would not feel confident at all about taking the system on with what is a basic defence of 'sorry, I did not notice that'.
But I do appreciate the frustration and wanting to do exactly that, being young and potentially hammered by this is tough. Maybe there is a way of letting your feelings be known that does not add to the costs should it go pear shaped?
A covering letter back with the NIP asking for lenience.
Always a chance this might help, even if a most slim chance so worth a go.
Going to court will need some balls.
As others have said, the hard fact is when the police stopped him, he was uninsured. They have thought about it and decided to prosecute.
I would not feel confident at all about taking the system on with what is a basic defence of 'sorry, I did not notice that'.
But I do appreciate the frustration and wanting to do exactly that, being young and potentially hammered by this is tough. Maybe there is a way of letting your feelings be known that does not add to the costs should it go pear shaped?
A covering letter back with the NIP asking for lenience.
Always a chance this might help, even if a most slim chance so worth a go.
Going to court will need some balls.
Officers had discretion to do nothing at the time of the stop, once he'd re-insured.
Not sure why they didnt tell him at the time they were going to report him for no Insurance at the time though - they should have made it clear to him that they intended to deal with the lack of insurance at the time of the stop
Not sure why they didnt tell him at the time they were going to report him for no Insurance at the time though - they should have made it clear to him that they intended to deal with the lack of insurance at the time of the stop
Edited by Bigends on Monday 21st September 11:08
jondude said:
the insurers removing the car bang on the second the policy ran out.
Because it was always set to end at expiry. Unless the insurer goes in and amends it to renew for another year, it'll always be removed bang on the expiry time. That's why sometimes when you renew, and you don't tell them until the day before, it takes a few days for the records to be updated, and your car to reappear on the MID Bigends said:
Officers had discretion to do nothing at the time of the stop, once he'd re-insured.
Not sure why they didnt tell him at the time they were going to report him for no Insurance at the time though - they should have made it clear to him that they intended to deal with the lack of insurance at the time of the stop
That seems to have been an oversight or miscommunication, as in the OP's friend's son erroneously believed that they were "letting him off" so long as he reinsured the car, but in actuality were letting him take the car away once insured as opposed to impounding it.Not sure why they didnt tell him at the time they were going to report him for no Insurance at the time though - they should have made it clear to him that they intended to deal with the lack of insurance at the time of the stop
Edited by Bigends on Monday 21st September 11:08
As has been said already it's a strict liability offence, and there is (as far as I know) only one actual defence which doesn't apply here.
Doesn't sound like there is anything to lose in appealing to the court, but I can't see it being successful.
Terminator X said:
Talk about unlucky, stopped 5 mins after insurance lapses yet I've not been stopped in perhaps 20 years.
TX.
Must admit it does sound a bit coincidental, ANPR or not, what are the chances of the actual Police being there at that exact time, especially given as you don't see a great deal of Police out and about anyway.TX.
Wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of a tall story as told by an 18yo, who's been rumbled without insurance.
It's worth talking to the old insurer to see if they can offer a letter giving him cover from expiry to the new policy coming into place. It has been known to work (in the old days when brokers issued cover notes and accidently gaps took place) and they may be helpful.
For example if he's still in the '2 week expiry period' they could allow him to renew the old policy.
For example if he's still in the '2 week expiry period' they could allow him to renew the old policy.
chucklebutty said:
It's worth talking to the old insurer to see if they can offer a letter giving him cover from expiry to the new policy coming into place. It has been known to work (in the old days when brokers issued cover notes and accidently gaps took place) and they may be helpful.
For example if he's still in the '2 week expiry period' they could allow him to renew the old policy.
This wasn't accidental. And what's this 2 week expiry period you talk of? For example if he's still in the '2 week expiry period' they could allow him to renew the old policy.
chucklebutty said:
Twig, I'm getting confused with the 14 day cancellation period after renewal.
OP can still contact previous insurer to see if they'd provide a letter of indemnity that could be presented to the court. It's not common but can happen on occassion.
It can't happen in this case because he wasn't insured. They cannot issue a letter of indemnity because he had no indemnity. He wasn't covered. A letter of indemnity is for when people are insured, but there was an error made or similar and they have no certificate of insurance covering the time they were stopped. OP can still contact previous insurer to see if they'd provide a letter of indemnity that could be presented to the court. It's not common but can happen on occassion.
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