Caught with no insurance after midnight expiry
Discussion
Red 5 said:
NGee said:
Bigends said:
No times on mine - my new cover commences 29th September 2020 and expires 29th September 2021 - nice and simple - no confusion
No confusion?? Are you joking, have you read this thread?Is that including 29th Sept or does it end at midnight (the beginning of the day) on 29th Sept.
Is it up to the 29th or is it up to and including the 29th? Will you be insured on the 29th?
If it only says what you've written above then that is definitely not nice and simple.
If your clock has the date 29 on it, you are no longer covered.
“Expires ON 29th September” is what some people read and take away from this.
This is how people speak and think mostly, but not how how contracts are written.
Also, as to the midnight confusion.....
I agree that most think Midnight is at the end of a day. It is the beginning AND the end and is just a word used and normally it matters not.
Not many things in our lives occur at “Midnight Friday” anyway, so it’s not something that crops up often for most of us.
It only caused confusion when associated with the specific date.
If midnight on Friday was one second after Friday 23:59:59, then that would make the time 24.00hrs!
I also had this issues when young. I drove uninsured for the day.
No harm came of it though.
I also drove with two current policies for 25days due to the broker messing up.
The first time I drive in France, they added the extra cover to my Father’s policy by accident. I drove in France for the week, while he was in leafy Surrey.
Fortunately nothing happened to me while I was away.
I also verbally told my (different) broker to prepare my renewal 2 weeks before my expiry date. They didn’t do it and I then relaxed it was sorted and didn’t chase them.
I got pulled over the following week and was given a producer!
I called the broker and explained. He apologised he’d forgotten to address my renewal and issued a cover note for the period in question. Plod were quite happy with this
It occurred to me later, that it was actually my responsibility, even though he forgotten too. I was the one driving the car. His forgetting was not the cause of the illegal activity.
My forgetting WAS.
This was before automatic renewals. When insurance cover was hand written.
It also occurred to me, that he was mad to do it. I told him I’d simply been pulled over and had a ‘7 day wonder’
However, I could have told him this and acquired the certificate from him, even if I’d lied and had just crashed into many things, causing life changing injuries.
Nothing was time stamped and nothing was recorded back then in the early 90s!
I personally think the young man in question is screwed.
If the verbal communication was as described. (This will have been recorded for sure)
If it is not recorded, or can’t be located, then he can just deny the conversation ever took place and produce the original documents, stating he was covered well past the date in question anyway.
Risky I know, but people do lie.
If he pleads his case as it stands, it will be pointed out, that by his own admission, he didn’t understand his verbal instruction and decided to drive anyway.
Either that, or he DID actually understand and decided to drive anyway.
Either way, he decided to drive and he wasn’t covered.
All he’d be doing is stating for the record, that he decided to drive, even though he knew cover was in question.
If the recordings are ambiguous or misleading though, it’s a different issue. One that will cost a lot to unravel in court.
I know I’ve just typed all that, but I actually think the whole thing is a tall story anyway. I think he was just driving uninsured and got nicked.
Bigends said:
No confusion on my part - as soon as the calendar clicks over to 29th Sept, my policy commences. As soon as the calendar ticks over to the 30th September the following year, my policy expires - simple really.
So you are ASSUMING that the policy ends at the END of the 29th.This is not how Red5 and Roadsmash see it. (see their posts above)
This whole thread is about someone who made the same assumption but it turned out the policy ended at midnight on 29th (or whatever day) i.e the BEGINNING of the day.
Plus, with your logic your insurance would cover you for on the 29th Sept both this year and next - unlikely I would have thought.
Edited by NGee on Tuesday 22 September 11:55
roadsmash said:
NGee said:
Bigends said:
No times on mine - my new cover commences 29th September 2020 and expires 29th September 2021 - nice and simple - no confusion
No confusion?? Are you joking, have you read this thread?Is that including 29th Sept or does it end at midnight (the beginning of the day) on 29th Sept.
Is it up to the 29th or is it up to and including the 29th? Will you be insured on the 29th?
If it only says what you've written above then that is definitely not nice and simple.
As soon as the date changes from the 28th to the 29th... Bigends is no longer insured.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
23:59 on the 29th is still ON the 29th, It could expire any when ON the 29th. A couple of posters have said their policy ended at noon, that's still ON the date given.
Where does it say, from the info we have been given by Bigends, that it ends at the beginning of the 29th? ( midnight or 00:00)?
Bigends himself is obviously confused, although he doesn't realise it, because he believes he is insured for a year and a day!!
Red 5 said:
NGee said:
Bigends said:
No times on mine - my new cover commences 29th September 2020 and expires 29th September 2021 - nice and simple - no confusion
No confusion?? Are you joking, have you read this thread?Is that including 29th Sept or does it end at midnight (the beginning of the day) on 29th Sept.
Is it up to the 29th or is it up to and including the 29th? Will you be insured on the 29th?
If it only says what you've written above then that is definitely not nice and simple.
If your clock has the date 29 on it, you are no longer covered.
“Expires ON 29th September” is what some people read and take away from this.
This is how people speak and think mostly, but not how how contracts are written.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
My cert commences 14 Feb 20, expires 13 Feb 21. Are you saying I'm not covered on the 13th? I think I am. Otherwise I'm being diddled out of a day.
Exactly so, but have a word with Bigends, he seems to have gained a day, maybe it was yours!!!Any date, without a time or a written 'end of' or 'beginning of' is completely meaningless, as this thread graphically proves.
roadsmash said:
Yes, I think it’s clear some people here need to take a closer look at their insurance certificate. Otherwise they may end up in the same situation as the OP’s friend’s son!
.Mine's crystal clear:
Effective date of commencement of insurance for the purpose of the relevant law 00:01 hours, YY June 2020
Date of expiry of insurance 23:59 hours, XX June 2021.
And looking back to the previous year, it seems I was without insurance for a couple of minutes one night in June since the old policy expired at 23:59 hours, XX June 2020.
Bigends said:
No confusion on my part - as soon as the calendar clicks over to 29th Sept, my policy commences. As soon as the calendar ticks over to the 30th September the following year, my policy expires - simple really.
I very much doubt it. Nearly all policies are for one year, what you are describing is one year and one day.TwigtheWonderkid said:
My cert commences 14 Feb 20, expires 13 Feb 21. Are you saying I'm not covered on the 13th? I think I am. Otherwise I'm being diddled out of a day.
It depends on the wording. People tend to paraphrase their documents and look to verbalise them to support their own opinions. What we think it should mean, what we hope it might mean, and what it actually means, are not always the same.
“Expires 13th” At no time are you covered on 13th. The second your clock says 13th, the policy has expired.
Expires on 13th is different. What time ON the 13th does it expire is then a question.
I think people are arguing about two separate things.
Meld said:
Mine's crystal clear:
Effective date of commencement of insurance for the purpose of the relevant law 00:01 hours, YY June 2020
Date of expiry of insurance 23:59 hours, XX June 2021.
And looking back to the previous year, it seems I was without insurance for a couple of minutes one night in June since the old policy expired at 23:59 hours, XX June 2020.
They've diddled you out of a minute this year too. You're not covered from 00:00:00 to 00:00:59. Effective date of commencement of insurance for the purpose of the relevant law 00:01 hours, YY June 2020
Date of expiry of insurance 23:59 hours, XX June 2021.
And looking back to the previous year, it seems I was without insurance for a couple of minutes one night in June since the old policy expired at 23:59 hours, XX June 2020.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
They've diddled you our of a minute this year too. You're not covered from 00:00:00 to 00:00:59.
My point exactly. Fortunately, I didn't crash, have the car nicked or get pulled by an over zealous ANPR camera. But, hypothetically, had one of those things happened in the 2 minutes I was without insurance, life could have got quite complicated - especially if I had also been changing insurer. Can you imagine the buck passing?Meld said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
They've diddled you our of a minute this year too. You're not covered from 00:00:00 to 00:00:59.
My point exactly. Fortunately, I didn't crash, have the car nicked or get pulled by an over zealous ANPR camera. But, hypothetically, had one of those things happened in the 2 minutes I was without insurance, life could have got quite complicated - especially if I had also been changing insurer. Can you imagine the buck passing?It wouldn't get complicated if you were pulled 30 seconds after midnight, the intention of the insurers is to provide continuous cover.
IANAL, however unless the lad has a reasonable prospect of success defending the charge in court, isn't he going to be better off financially by sticking with a fixed penalty? I suppose if the court accepted mitigation it might not award 6 points and perhaps, if applicable, this could avoid revocation of the licence?
AGT is your man.
AGT is your man.
Just checked my insurance certificate, which expires at 23:59.
I think I’ll be ok. I’ll just renew my insurance to run from the following day. It’s nit rocket surgery.
(The reason it starts at an “odd” time is because it was off the road and I started the new policy online. The time it runs from is the time I bought it. Obviously, the insurance company are effectively diddling me out of 20 or so hours of insurance...)
I think I’ll be ok. I’ll just renew my insurance to run from the following day. It’s nit rocket surgery.
(The reason it starts at an “odd” time is because it was off the road and I started the new policy online. The time it runs from is the time I bought it. Obviously, the insurance company are effectively diddling me out of 20 or so hours of insurance...)
Sebring440 said:
Dibble said:
Obviously, the insurance company are effectively diddling me out of 20 or so hours of insurance...)
Why do you think that?(It was a joke - don't worry about it!)
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff