Caught with no insurance after midnight expiry
Discussion
NGee said:
Lord Marylebone said:
...his insurers..... said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
Surely if insurance runs out on Saturday, it runs out at midnight on Saturday, not 24hrs earlier?chucklebutty said:
Twig, I'm getting confused with the 14 day cancellation period after renewal.
OP can still contact previous insurer to see if they'd provide a letter of indemnity that could be presented to the court. It's not common but can happen on occassion.
They won't. They would be opening themselves up to all sorts of potential headaches if they did. OP can still contact previous insurer to see if they'd provide a letter of indemnity that could be presented to the court. It's not common but can happen on occassion.
What if the policyholder subsequently put in a claim, after having received a letter to state that they were retrospectively insured?
Insurers have been known to issue a letter of indemnity where they have made some sort of mistake, but it would be nigh on impossible to get them to provide that for a policy that the policyholder has explicitly chosen to let lapse. The circumstances, after all, are merely unfortunate but entirely forseeable.
NGee said:
Lord Marylebone said:
...his insurers..... said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
Surely if insurance runs out on Saturday, it runs out at midnight on Saturday, not 24hrs earlier?Durzel said:
Midnight Saturday is 5 minutes before the OP's friend's son was pulled.
I'd say midnight Saturday is late on Saturday night, not Friday night. But it's irrelevant. Doesn't matter what they said, it's the driver's job to know when his insurance runs out. He had documents that gave the expiry time. Great - thanks for clearing it up, very helpful and constructive. I'd always thought that the insurer has some discretion in this area, they used to in the past when cover notes were a thing.
Occasionally brokers would issue drivers cover notes, 7 or 30 days for example, and (because the policy took time to be accepted at the insurer) the cover notes would be extended. Sometimes there would be an accidental lapse between one and the next, and something would happen - accident, police stop etc, and at the insurance company a manager could write a letter of indemnity for the client. This meant I'd have to venture into the typing pool to get the letter put properly onto headed paper.
All very different now with computers, MID and continuous insurance legislation.
Occasionally brokers would issue drivers cover notes, 7 or 30 days for example, and (because the policy took time to be accepted at the insurer) the cover notes would be extended. Sometimes there would be an accidental lapse between one and the next, and something would happen - accident, police stop etc, and at the insurance company a manager could write a letter of indemnity for the client. This meant I'd have to venture into the typing pool to get the letter put properly onto headed paper.
All very different now with computers, MID and continuous insurance legislation.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Durzel said:
Midnight Saturday is 5 minutes before the OP's friend's son was pulled.
I'd say midnight Saturday is late on Saturday night, not Friday night. But it's irrelevant. Doesn't matter what they said, it's the driver's job to know when his insurance runs out. He had documents that gave the expiry time. That has caught me out a few times setting up discount codes, etc for our e-commerce stores.
Perhaps it's worth the OP's friend's son having a word with their (ex)insurance company and listening in on the call? I don't suppose it can hurt to find out whether the language used inferred that it ended "at some time on Saturday" as opposed to on the exact second Friday turns to Saturday.
Edited by Durzel on Monday 21st September 13:15
Durzel said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Durzel said:
Midnight Saturday is 5 minutes before the OP's friend's son was pulled.
I'd say midnight Saturday is late on Saturday night, not Friday night. But it's irrelevant. Doesn't matter what they said, it's the driver's job to know when his insurance runs out. He had documents that gave the expiry time. That has caught me out a few times setting up discount codes, etc for our e-commerce stores.
I do grant that "Midnight Saturday" while technically it is 1 minute after Friday 23:59 it's not something everyone would be au fait with and I would have thought that the insurance company should have been clearer there.
I still don't unfortunately think that it'll make a difference however given the situation there is precious little to be lost by exploring it with the insurance company. Worst case nothing happens. Best case they may admit they inadvertently misled him and agree to indemnify for that extra day. Doubtful but nothing ventured nothing gained and all.
Durzel said:
NGee said:
Lord Marylebone said:
...his insurers..... said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
Surely if insurance runs out on Saturday, it runs out at midnight on Saturday, not 24hrs earlier?Midnight Saturday is 23hrs 55mins after he was stopped.
According to OP he was stopped at 00.05 Saturday morning (He goes to work Friday night, usually finishes around 11pm )
ETA
OOps, The penny has just dropped! Forget what i said above! (Sorry Durzel!)
The day does indeed begin at 00:00. So midnight Sat is actually what we'd call Friday night.
This is why insurance policy (and probably other contracts) don't use the word midnight and usually end at 23:59
IF, yes IF, he was told it would end Saturday it is reasonable to assume that is 23:59 Saturday night, not midnight.
Although as already stated, we don't know exactly what he was told and who, if anyone, confused 23:59 with midnight.
Edited by NGee on Monday 21st September 14:06
It doesn't matter if the insurer said you're covered until October instead of September. He's the driver. He's had documents for the year, he had an actual certificate with the real expiry date, it's his job to ensure his insurance is still valid. He might have misunderstood the insurer, or the insurer may have said the wrong thing over the phone. None of that changes the fact. He was driving after his insurance ran out, and it was his job to know that.
Durzel said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Durzel said:
Midnight Saturday is 5 minutes before the OP's friend's son was pulled.
I'd say midnight Saturday is late on Saturday night, not Friday night. But it's irrelevant. Doesn't matter what they said, it's the driver's job to know when his insurance runs out. He had documents that gave the expiry time. He knew when his insurance expired and he took the risk. It must have seemed like a very small risk but he got caught breaking the law and I don’t see how him stating he was only going to drive without insurance for a few minutes or that he always used to have insurance mitigates that unfortunately.
The ‘only just’ aspect does not make it any less of a serious offence - and it is a serious offence for a reason.
The ‘only just’ aspect does not make it any less of a serious offence - and it is a serious offence for a reason.
NGee said:
Durzel said:
NGee said:
Lord Marylebone said:
...his insurers..... said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
Surely if insurance runs out on Saturday, it runs out at midnight on Saturday, not 24hrs earlier?Midnight Saturday is 23hrs 55mins after he was stopped.
According to OP he was stopped at 00.05 Saturday morning (He goes to work Friday night, usually finishes around 11pm )
As said above it's also the reason that insurance policies tend to say that insurance runs until 23:59:59 on a given date, or noon.
If the OP's friend's son can get the insurers to listen in on the call they had with him, where he was told it would "run out on Saturday", it could help in court, though it would beg the question of what time he thought it would expire instead. Worth a punt perhaps.
Maybe agtlaw can offer some wisdom on the likelihood of a judge considering this sort of ambiguity.
EDIT: Missed your edit NGee, sorry.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
sealtt said:
He knew when his insurance expired and he took the risk.
That's not what happened. Not that it matters one iota. If sealtt has worded it better said:
He knew the exact time that his insurance would expire that evening and he took the risk of driving an extra few minutes, by leaving too late.
I would be angry at his employer, if he/she were told that he mustn't wait past 11:40pm, to get home in time.Tommo87 said:
I would be angry at his employer, if he/she were told that he mustn't wait past 11:40pm, to get home in time.
Well the kid could have said "I can't leave late tonight as I'll be uninsured at 12" and the boss would have been forced to let him go on time. Though I'm guessing the OP isn't getting the real story from the kid in the first place. If he's telling the truth then its one of the unluckiest receiving of points I've ever heard of.
NGee said:
Lord Marylebone said:
...his insurers..... said "No problem, just be aware that your insurance runs out on Saturday".
Surely if insurance runs out on Saturday, it runs out at midnight on Saturday, not 24hrs earlier?I've had this where I asked for a policy to be cancelled at midnight & when checking the policy realised it would expire 24hours before I wanted it to. Contacted the insurer & they changed it to 2359 on the same day for no charge.
Just to clarify:
1) I fully agree with everyone who says “it’s his own fault and he should have known when it expired”.
He knows this, and isn’t disputing that he committed the offence. He acknowledges was his own fault for not knowing, to the minute, when his insurance expired.
He doesn’t intend to fight the offence, merely the punishment, if possible, or if it’s worth a go.
After he told his insurer to let his insurance lapse and had the conversation with them, he assumed it would cover ‘Friday night’ and didn’t realise it meant expiry at 23:59:59, thinking that ‘night’ meant until the next morning because they said “it expires Saturday”, which of course it did.... at midnight.
He’s 18 and this is the first time he’s ever dealt with insurance.
He knows now.
2) He didn’t assume that the officer was definitely letting him off with a warning.
He just wasn’t sure.
Apparently the officer didn’t explicitly say he was getting reported for the offence and it was all very confusing as it was the first time he had ever interacted with the police and he was quite flustered.
The officer told him to get insurance sorted then and there, which he did, then told him off in stern terms and pretty much said “Off you go. Don’t do it again”
He spent 2 weeks thinking about what was actually said during the exchange, and wondering if he was getting some kind of ticket.
That was answered of course, when the NIP arrived.
1) I fully agree with everyone who says “it’s his own fault and he should have known when it expired”.
He knows this, and isn’t disputing that he committed the offence. He acknowledges was his own fault for not knowing, to the minute, when his insurance expired.
He doesn’t intend to fight the offence, merely the punishment, if possible, or if it’s worth a go.
After he told his insurer to let his insurance lapse and had the conversation with them, he assumed it would cover ‘Friday night’ and didn’t realise it meant expiry at 23:59:59, thinking that ‘night’ meant until the next morning because they said “it expires Saturday”, which of course it did.... at midnight.
He’s 18 and this is the first time he’s ever dealt with insurance.
He knows now.
2) He didn’t assume that the officer was definitely letting him off with a warning.
He just wasn’t sure.
Apparently the officer didn’t explicitly say he was getting reported for the offence and it was all very confusing as it was the first time he had ever interacted with the police and he was quite flustered.
The officer told him to get insurance sorted then and there, which he did, then told him off in stern terms and pretty much said “Off you go. Don’t do it again”
He spent 2 weeks thinking about what was actually said during the exchange, and wondering if he was getting some kind of ticket.
That was answered of course, when the NIP arrived.
Giving the OP's friend's son the benefit of the doubt, if he was told on the phone that his policy "runs out on Saturday" (the exact wording on the call is critical, although I'd venture that being told it runs out "at midnight on Saturday" is equally ambiguous as can be seen from this thread), then being pulled at 00:05 with no insurance is especially harsh.
As far as I can see it he has two options:
1) Ask the insurance company to indemnify him for that Saturday (as in up to 23:59:59), on the basis of a misleading phone call (assuming it was).
2) Make a statement to the judge in court and hope it is taken into consideration. I can't see this working at all - onus on driver to make sure they're insured on every single trip, etc.
1) is vastly more preferable, but it does hinge on what was said on the phone call. I would suggest it would be surprising, though not impossible, for the agent on the phone to have not been explicit as to when it expired, although as said above "midnight Saturday" is clearly something that catches people out.
As far as I can see it he has two options:
1) Ask the insurance company to indemnify him for that Saturday (as in up to 23:59:59), on the basis of a misleading phone call (assuming it was).
2) Make a statement to the judge in court and hope it is taken into consideration. I can't see this working at all - onus on driver to make sure they're insured on every single trip, etc.
1) is vastly more preferable, but it does hinge on what was said on the phone call. I would suggest it would be surprising, though not impossible, for the agent on the phone to have not been explicit as to when it expired, although as said above "midnight Saturday" is clearly something that catches people out.
Algarve said:
Well the kid could have said "I can't leave late tonight as I'll be uninsured at 12" and the boss would have been forced to let him go on time.
Though I'm guessing the OP isn't getting the real story from the kid in the first place. If he's telling the truth then its one of the unluckiest receiving of points I've ever heard of.
I know his dad very well as we work together every day and are friends outside work.Though I'm guessing the OP isn't getting the real story from the kid in the first place. If he's telling the truth then its one of the unluckiest receiving of points I've ever heard of.
He phoned his Dad as he was sat in the police van just after midnight, and asked him to help find temporary insurance so he could drive home.
Also, his dad has seen the insurance documents with, with midnight expiry time, and yes, it all stacks up.
As others more knowledgable than me have said further up the thread, expired insurance policies can vanish from the ANPR database bang on midnight, and it’s actually quite common.
Clearly the police saw a young looking lad driving along in a car after midnight and thought they would have a quick look, ANPR or a manual reg check immediately showed no insurance, and here we are.
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