SORN and insurance

[MustangGT]

wrong_turn said:

I'm going to try to insure it. Any idea if my being banned means I don't have a licence? I wondered if there's a difference between "suspended" and "no licence".

I think removing the plates would look even more suspicious. The VIN is clearly visible in the windscreen if anybody cares to check. I think for £60 to cover it, it's a no-brainer. But the insurer's decision that I need a licence to insure a car I don't use, seems odd.

Have you tried 'laid-up' insurance?

[MustangGT]

lyonspride said:

MustangGT said:

lyonspride said:

Oh really?

So one of my old neighbours got a fine from the DVLA for not taxing their MK3 Escort RS Turbo, which was on their drive, on axle stands, engine out and all four wheels wheels off.....
The DVLA has a list of sorned vehicles (obviously), and they routinely send ANPR vans out to the locations of said vehicles, i've caught them on my CCTV.

If you sorn your vehicle and it's visible from the road, remove your plate, it's only 30 seconds work and could save you £80.

My bet is the mate had not declared SORN.

It was SORN.........

But do what you like, I don't give a flying one, I made a suggestion that could save someone from an £80 fine, anyone who has ever had the misfortune to deal with the DVLA and it's automated fines, will know it's better to play it safe.

Did your mate pay the fine? If so, why? If it was SORN he would have proof and therefore no fine payable. No proof = Not SORN.

[wrong_turn]

MustangGT said:

Have you tried 'laid-up' insurance?

Yes, that's why the quote was <£60. I have entered all my details on a comparison site but reluctant to press "submit" in case I suddenly have to add "declined". I am also not sure if I should say I have a driving licence or not - the letter just says I have to return it to DVLA and then apply for a new one later. I have a letter from my previous insurer saying there are no claims and my NCB is intact, but I cancelled the policy myself before I was convicted. I think I'm on thin ice. Strangely they did show a "fault" claim on my policy, which has since disappeared. When I spoke to them they said no claims had been made so I think the other party may have claimed on their property insurance rather than mine. I've not asked too many questions for obvious reasons, but the prosecution's documents say the damage has been paid for by insurance.

I am thinking I should transfer the V5 to a relative and get them to insure it. I don't think that would be "fronting" as the only reason I touch the car is to start the engine for 15-20 minutes every month or so, and she is free to drive it if she wants (unlikely, but it is an estate and there is a sofa waiting to be moved after the self-store re-opens). I would still own the car and store it but she would be the only driver.

As a point of interest the court offered me the chance to go on a course (at my own expense of course) which will reduce my ban by 25% if I complete it. Starting tomorrow via Zoom. They gave me no penalty points and the fine was at the low end (though the costs etc added up). Even being let off lightly is a major blow, so don't do it peeps.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

MustangGT said:

Have you tried 'laid-up' insurance?

Laid up insurance usually doesn't provide third party cover, which is the bit he needs.

[wrong_turn]

I might have slipped up then. I have insured the car. After reading Twig's post I checked the policy and it does exclude third party cover. I thought the most basic insurance is TPF+T but I am only covered for fire and theft.

Is third party mandatory?

[martinbiz]

wrong_turn said:

I might have slipped up then. I have insured the car. After reading Twig's post I checked the policy and it does exclude third party cover. I thought the most basic insurance is TPF+T but I am only covered for fire and theft.

Is third party mandatory?

For normal insurance you are right, third party is the basic minimum and yes it's a legal requirment, laid up is what it says not being used so no third party risk involved, so fire and theft only. I have 2 bikes on laid up cover at the moment

[TwigtheWonderkid]

wrong_turn said:

I might have slipped up then. I have insured the car. After reading Twig's post I checked the policy and it does exclude third party cover. I thought the most basic insurance is TPF+T but I am only covered for fire and theft.

Is third party mandatory?

Yes, third party is actually the only bit you need to be legal. When you get a no insurance conviction, it's for keeping or using a vehicle on the public highway without the minimum third party cover. To be legal, you don't need anything that covers you, so no fire, no theft. You need to cover the damage or injury you might do to other people or their property, that's third party.

[lyonspride]

SS2. said:

lyonspride said:

MustangGT said:

lyonspride said:

Oh really?

So one of my old neighbours got a fine from the DVLA for not taxing their MK3 Escort RS Turbo, which was on their drive, on axle stands, engine out and all four wheels wheels off.....
The DVLA has a list of sorned vehicles (obviously), and they routinely send ANPR vans out to the locations of said vehicles, i've caught them on my CCTV.

If you sorn your vehicle and it's visible from the road, remove your plate, it's only 30 seconds work and could save you £80.

My bet is the mate had not declared SORN.

It was SORN.........

But do what you like, I don't give a flying one, I made a suggestion that could save someone from an £80 fine, anyone who has ever had the misfortune to deal with the DVLA and it's automated fines, will know it's better to play it safe.

£80 is the fine for being the registered keeper of an untaxed vehicle.

That's an administrative affair which can be enforced from the comfort of a desk in Swansea - no need for any DVLA snoopers to catch sight of the vehicle in question, and no benefit to be had from the keeper removing the number plates.

It does sound like he may have thought it was SORN, but it wasn't.

You can't keep a SORN vehicle on the road..............

If a DVLA van ANPR picks it up, the "computer" will assume it's on the road and issue a fine. Now you could fight and absolutely win, BUT you'd have to go through months of automated threatening letters and eventually go to court.

[wrong_turn]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Yes, third party is actually the only bit you need to be legal. When you get a no insurance conviction, it's for keeping or using a vehicle on the public highway without the minimum third party cover. To be legal, you don't need anything that covers you, so no fire, no theft. You need to cover the damage or injury you might do to other people or their property, that's third party.

Thanks for that. I have a cooling off period so can hopefully find another policy that works.

[AJL308]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

wrong_turn said:

I might have slipped up then. I have insured the car. After reading Twig's post I checked the policy and it does exclude third party cover. I thought the most basic insurance is TPF+T but I am only covered for fire and theft.

Is third party mandatory?

Yes, third party is actually the only bit you need to be legal. When you get a no insurance conviction, it's for keeping or using a vehicle on the public highway without the minimum third party cover. To be legal, you don't need anything that covers you, so no fire, no theft. You need to cover the damage or injury you might do to other people or their property, that's third party.

Which he can't get as he has no licence so cannot "keep" a vehicle in a public place, which is what his parking area is.

[martinbiz]

lyonspride said:

You can't keep a SORN vehicle on the road..............

If a DVLA van ANPR picks it up, the "computer" will assume it's on the road and issue a fine. Now you could fight and absolutely win, BUT you'd have to go through months of automated threatening letters and eventually go to court.

Yes the first sentence I think we all know and agree with.

The second sentence is utter tosh, do you think these hundreds of vans you seem to think are patrolling every small street in the country are remote controlled or driven by robots? No, they have a driver in them who presumably is'nt an idiot

[petrolbloke]

lyonspride said:

martinbiz said:

lyonspride said:

Doesn't need insurance on private land, but take the number plate off before the DVLA ANPR vans pick it up, they have targets to meet, you will get a fine and they won't back down until you take it to court.

I sorned my car on my own driveway for 3 months (because an unresolved non-fault claim trippled my insurance renewal), first thing I did was remove the number plate visible from the road.

What a complete wast of time and effort

Oh really?

So one of my old neighbours got a fine from the DVLA for not taxing their MK3 Escort RS Turbo, which was on their drive, on axle stands, engine out and all four wheels wheels off.....
The DVLA has a list of sorned vehicles (obviously), and they routinely send ANPR vans out to the locations of said vehicles, i've caught them on my CCTV.

If you sorn your vehicle and it's visible from the road, remove your plate, it's only 30 seconds work and could save you £80.

My car was SORNed and parked on my driveway for ~5 months, I didn't have any bother from the DVLA.

I wouldn't bother removing the numberplate - I'd have thought it would draw more attention to it (from local curtain twitchers or bored vandals).

[TwigtheWonderkid]

AJL308 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

wrong_turn said:

I might have slipped up then. I have insured the car. After reading Twig's post I checked the policy and it does exclude third party cover. I thought the most basic insurance is TPF+T but I am only covered for fire and theft.

Is third party mandatory?

Yes, third party is actually the only bit you need to be legal. When you get a no insurance conviction, it's for keeping or using a vehicle on the public highway without the minimum third party cover. To be legal, you don't need anything that covers you, so no fire, no theft. You need to cover the damage or injury you might do to other people or their property, that's third party.

Which he can't get as he has no licence so cannot "keep" a vehicle in a public place, which is what his parking area is.

There's nothing to say you can't insure a car even if you don't drive. But obviously, you can't be a driver on the policy. You might not be able to do it online as it's not a standard thing, but a broker can sort it for you. Plenty of people own cars but don't drive, and family members do the driving. Often people with disabilities that preclude them from driving.

[SS2.]

lyonspride said:

SS2. said:

lyonspride said:

MustangGT said:

lyonspride said:

Oh really?

So one of my old neighbours got a fine from the DVLA for not taxing their MK3 Escort RS Turbo, which was on their drive, on axle stands, engine out and all four wheels wheels off.....
The DVLA has a list of sorned vehicles (obviously), and they routinely send ANPR vans out to the locations of said vehicles, i've caught them on my CCTV.

If you sorn your vehicle and it's visible from the road, remove your plate, it's only 30 seconds work and could save you £80.

My bet is the mate had not declared SORN.

It was SORN.........

But do what you like, I don't give a flying one, I made a suggestion that could save someone from an £80 fine, anyone who has ever had the misfortune to deal with the DVLA and it's automated fines, will know it's better to play it safe.

£80 is the fine for being the registered keeper of an untaxed vehicle.

That's an administrative affair which can be enforced from the comfort of a desk in Swansea - no need for any DVLA snoopers to catch sight of the vehicle in question, and no benefit to be had from the keeper removing the number plates.

It does sound like he may have thought it was SORN, but it wasn't.

You can't keep a SORN vehicle on the road..............

If a DVLA van ANPR picks it up, the "computer" will assume it's on the road and issue a fine. Now you could fight and absolutely win, BUT you'd have to go through months of automated threatening letters and eventually go to court.

You missed the point of my post.

£80 is the penalty for being the registered keeper of an untaxed vehicle. It doesn't matter whether the vehicle is on road, off road or pinged by a DVLA van. It's purely administrative.

[lyonspride]

martinbiz said:

lyonspride said:

You can't keep a SORN vehicle on the road..............

If a DVLA van ANPR picks it up, the "computer" will assume it's on the road and issue a fine. Now you could fight and absolutely win, BUT you'd have to go through months of automated threatening letters and eventually go to court.

Yes the first sentence I think we all know and agree with.

The second sentence is utter tosh, do you think these hundreds of vans you seem to think are patrolling every small street in the country are remote controlled or driven by robots? No, they have a driver in them who presumably is'nt an idiot

They send those vans to streets where they know SORNed vehicles are being kept, so it's not hundreds, it's very targeted.

[Countdown]

lyonspride said:

They send those vans to streets where they know SORNed vehicles are being kept, so it's not hundreds, it's very targeted.

if it's SORN'd and the DVLA know it's SORN'd but they're intent on sending out dodgy fines, why would they bother sending out a Van to take pictures which would actually prove that the fine was dodgy?

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. You're suggesting that the DVLA are deliberately sending out illegal fines for cars being used on the Public Road (when they're not being used on the Public Road) And to facilitate this they are sending camera vans around to those addresses where SORNd vehicles are registered. these vans are taking pictures of vehicles which are legally SORNd AND legally off the road and then DVLA are using this to fine the owners......

Apologies if I'm missing something but that makes no sense whatsoever. Why would DVLA want to take pictures of something that would show they were issuing fines illegally?

[SS2.]

lyonspride said:

martinbiz said:

lyonspride said:

You can't keep a SORN vehicle on the road..............

If a DVLA van ANPR picks it up, the "computer" will assume it's on the road and issue a fine. Now you could fight and absolutely win, BUT you'd have to go through months of automated threatening letters and eventually go to court.

Yes the first sentence I think we all know and agree with.

The second sentence is utter tosh, do you think these hundreds of vans you seem to think are patrolling every small street in the country are remote controlled or driven by robots? No, they have a driver in them who presumably is'nt an idiot

They send those vans to streets where they know SORNed vehicles are being kept, so it's not hundreds, it's very targeted.

Point missed again.

If a vehicle is SORN and being kept off road, no offence has been committed and no penalties will follow. The suggestion that automated fines are being dished out for SORN'd vehicles which are confirmed as being parked off road is just plain daft.

If a vehicle is untaxed and not SORN, the registered keeper can expect a fine of £80. This is irrespective whether the vehicle is on road, off road or parked on the surface of Mars. It's also likely to be why your neighbour was fined.

[BertBert]

Are these DVLA sorn detector vans like the TV licence detector vans by any chance?

[wrong_turn]

BertBert said:

Are these DVLA sorn detector vans like the TV licence detector vans by any chance?

Hah! I saw a website years ago showing pictures of those over the decades. Ridiculous. I've recently got a letter saying to expect a visit from TVL. I'm quite looking forward to it :-)

ANPR worries me a bit more but I'm in a quiet cul-de-sac in a small market town, the car is SORNed and sort of insured (wip). Not sure they would bother having a look.

[lyonspride]

Countdown said:

lyonspride said:

Apologies if I'm missing something but that makes no sense whatsoever. Why would DVLA want to take pictures of something that would show they were issuing fines illegally?

They're not taking pictures, they're doing the ANPR check, the fines are issued automatically.

You have to remember these vans are also manned by people with targets to meet, they don't care whether the car is off road or not, they only care that the ANPR has pinged a SORN vehicle.

Honestly do what the f**k you like, just don't come complaining when you get a fine and the DVLA won't drop it, and they won't, because the appeals system is automated too, and all that does is send out another more threatening letter.