Landlord denying family representation entry to property?
Discussion
theboss said:
I'd also do exactly the same again, giving the DS a heads-up beforehand, and whilst vacating make sure you evidence the overall state the place is in as he's inevitably going to try and bill the estate for a full refit citing the fact that somebody passed away in there. What a prize tit.
Thanks. We tried repeatedly to get hold of him, but he refused. The estate has nothing and NOK is elderly and on benefits so has nothing to claim off. Turns out the rent was paid in cash, weekly, to an office behind a snooker hall… I doubt there was even an agreement.
I’m more concerned about personal safety than anything else.
Wings said:
Why a prize tit?
There is still a tenancy in place, have the NOK given due Notice to bring the tenancy to an end. Has the LL received notification/proof of who is the NOK. Who will be responsible for the replacement main entrance door, loss rental payment/s, the closing inventory, damage and/or cleaning the rental premises.
From everything the OP has said the LL is being as obstructive, insensitive and bloody-minded as possible. Any decent person could read the situation and work with the OP, whose approach comes across as perfectly reasonable, to establish the relevant formalities are covered and help draw things to a close so everyone can move on and he can re-let the place. The OP has said he feels concerned for the wellbeing of the elderly NOK - if these concerns are genuinely grounded, how is the LL behaving reasonably and professionally?There is still a tenancy in place, have the NOK given due Notice to bring the tenancy to an end. Has the LL received notification/proof of who is the NOK. Who will be responsible for the replacement main entrance door, loss rental payment/s, the closing inventory, damage and/or cleaning the rental premises.
If there's any shortfall at the end of the tenancy, damage has been done, and the deceased really was penniless, he's going to have to stomach some loss isn't he. If I were the OP and originally intent on trying to make things good, I'd now be walking away with any sentimental possessions leaving him to sort the mess out.
Wildfire said:
Ordinarily I would agree, but we really just want shot of him as soon as possible. The longer the contact the more at risk we put the NOK.
Last think we want is to get a call saying their door has been kicked in or worse.
The original deposit should have been held in a tenancy deposit scheme. Ask the landlord once for the money, and if he refuses or tries to withhold anything then start the dispute resolution process with whichever company is holding the deposit.Last think we want is to get a call saying their door has been kicked in or worse.
https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/disp...
You really don't need to have any involvement with him beyond that. He sounds like a bit of a scumbag, so better that you have the money than him. Good luck.
As the tenant is deceased, their obligations fall onto the estate i.e. rent payments, ensuring belongings are removed, cleaning the place, putting things right and handing in notice.
If the deceased had no possessions/money of worth or insurance, then there is nothing to pay the rent etc and you have the landlord over a barrel.
For the landlord to get possession legally they will need to issue notice, which currently stands at 4 months (should be going down to 2 in October). At expiry this does not give them possession however. The estate could wait until they are taken to court. Total time to get possession could be well in excess of 6 months for the Landlord during which time they are not and will not get any rent as there is nothing in their estate to pay it.
Might be worth reminding him of that and that if he was to be civil, the estate would give up their right of possession immediately so he could get it re-let. If he decides to take possession without the tenancy being terminated, this would be classed as unlawful possession and is criminal rather than civil, so could face fines or a bit of time at Her Majesty's pleasure with someone called Bubba.
If the deceased had no possessions/money of worth or insurance, then there is nothing to pay the rent etc and you have the landlord over a barrel.
For the landlord to get possession legally they will need to issue notice, which currently stands at 4 months (should be going down to 2 in October). At expiry this does not give them possession however. The estate could wait until they are taken to court. Total time to get possession could be well in excess of 6 months for the Landlord during which time they are not and will not get any rent as there is nothing in their estate to pay it.
Might be worth reminding him of that and that if he was to be civil, the estate would give up their right of possession immediately so he could get it re-let. If he decides to take possession without the tenancy being terminated, this would be classed as unlawful possession and is criminal rather than civil, so could face fines or a bit of time at Her Majesty's pleasure with someone called Bubba.
smashie said:
Lots of probably legally accurate stuff
.
Surely though the OP simply wanted to be able to get in and remove the stuff in there. leave the place in a reasonable condition and then move on..
One of our other businesses are house clearances.
You might be surprised at the amount of relatives who simply want places cleared. It's quite sad in some cases.
It also makes you think about what happens to your stuff after you go. Many folk simply don't want stuff that belonged to their parents.
Some of it is quite astonishing.
I think the OP probably just wants to forget about it all now
When my grandparents house was cleared after decades of hoarding, the contents went into a skip which was replaced several times as well as about 20 car loads to the tip.
It was very sad. We thought there would be a treasure trove of items and glimpses into their past lives, but actually under the dust sheets was piles and piles of rotting crap.
It was very sad. We thought there would be a treasure trove of items and glimpses into their past lives, but actually under the dust sheets was piles and piles of rotting crap.
theboss said:
When my grandparents house was cleared after decades of hoarding, the contents went into a skip which was replaced several times as well as about 20 car loads to the tip.
It was very sad. We thought there would be a treasure trove of items and glimpses into their past lives, but actually under the dust sheets was piles and piles of rotting crap.
We have removed massive cd collections/ DVD collections etcIt was very sad. We thought there would be a treasure trove of items and glimpses into their past lives, but actually under the dust sheets was piles and piles of rotting crap.
One of the most surprising was a almost top of the range Kenwood Chef 2 models back mixer
Absolutely mint
My wife remarked on it and did her research hence why we know its pedigree
Our eldest daughter has it in her kitchen and it's used regularly
One of the strangest is people who simply vanish. You get a call from a landlord and its as if they just upped and vanished
smashie said:
As the tenant is deceased, their obligations fall onto the estate i.e. rent payments, ensuring belongings are removed, cleaning the place, putting things right and handing in notice.
If the deceased had no possessions/money of worth or insurance, then there is nothing to pay the rent etc and you have the landlord over a barrel.
For the landlord to get possession legally they will need to issue notice, which currently stands at 4 months (should be going down to 2 in October). At expiry this does not give them possession however. The estate could wait until they are taken to court. Total time to get possession could be well in excess of 6 months for the Landlord during which time they are not and will not get any rent as there is nothing in their estate to pay it.
Might be worth reminding him of that and that if he was to be civil, the estate would give up their right of possession immediately so he could get it re-let. If he decides to take possession without the tenancy being terminated, this would be classed as unlawful possession and is criminal rather than civil, so could face fines or a bit of time at Her Majesty's pleasure with someone called Bubba.
From the 1 June 2021 the LL just needs to issue a Section 8 two months Notice. It is in the NOK interest to negotiate with the LL and immediately surrender the end of the tenancy. The NOK also have a legal and moral obligation to cover the LL's losses for outstanding rental payments, replacement/repair main entrance door, cleaning etc. etc. Negotiate with the LL, and bring the deceased tenancy to an amicable conclusion.If the deceased had no possessions/money of worth or insurance, then there is nothing to pay the rent etc and you have the landlord over a barrel.
For the landlord to get possession legally they will need to issue notice, which currently stands at 4 months (should be going down to 2 in October). At expiry this does not give them possession however. The estate could wait until they are taken to court. Total time to get possession could be well in excess of 6 months for the Landlord during which time they are not and will not get any rent as there is nothing in their estate to pay it.
Might be worth reminding him of that and that if he was to be civil, the estate would give up their right of possession immediately so he could get it re-let. If he decides to take possession without the tenancy being terminated, this would be classed as unlawful possession and is criminal rather than civil, so could face fines or a bit of time at Her Majesty's pleasure with someone called Bubba.
Wings said:
smashie said:
As the tenant is deceased, their obligations fall onto the estate i.e. rent payments, ensuring belongings are removed, cleaning the place, putting things right and handing in notice.
If the deceased had no possessions/money of worth or insurance, then there is nothing to pay the rent etc and you have the landlord over a barrel.
For the landlord to get possession legally they will need to issue notice, which currently stands at 4 months (should be going down to 2 in October). At expiry this does not give them possession however. The estate could wait until they are taken to court. Total time to get possession could be well in excess of 6 months for the Landlord during which time they are not and will not get any rent as there is nothing in their estate to pay it.
Might be worth reminding him of that and that if he was to be civil, the estate would give up their right of possession immediately so he could get it re-let. If he decides to take possession without the tenancy being terminated, this would be classed as unlawful possession and is criminal rather than civil, so could face fines or a bit of time at Her Majesty's pleasure with someone called Bubba.
From the 1 June 2021 the LL just needs to issue a Section 8 two months Notice. It is in the NOK interest to negotiate with the LL and immediately surrender the end of the tenancy. The NOK also have a legal and moral obligation to cover the LL's losses for outstanding rental payments, replacement/repair main entrance door, cleaning etc. etc. Negotiate with the LL, and bring the deceased tenancy to an amicable conclusion.If the deceased had no possessions/money of worth or insurance, then there is nothing to pay the rent etc and you have the landlord over a barrel.
For the landlord to get possession legally they will need to issue notice, which currently stands at 4 months (should be going down to 2 in October). At expiry this does not give them possession however. The estate could wait until they are taken to court. Total time to get possession could be well in excess of 6 months for the Landlord during which time they are not and will not get any rent as there is nothing in their estate to pay it.
Might be worth reminding him of that and that if he was to be civil, the estate would give up their right of possession immediately so he could get it re-let. If he decides to take possession without the tenancy being terminated, this would be classed as unlawful possession and is criminal rather than civil, so could face fines or a bit of time at Her Majesty's pleasure with someone called Bubba.
Moral responsibility ends when the landlord starts being a dick...
Talk to either a manager and/or an owner of an Elderly Persons Home (EPH), and often on the death of a resident, it is a person/s claiming to be a NOK, who have never previously visited the deceased person when alive, who are the first on the scene making claim to the deceased person's assets.
In general, this LL having to have experienced the same situation, can be a very stressful process for ALL concerned. The crucial first step is to established who has the legal authority to act for the deceased tenant, and once established, to deal with that person as if they were the tenant.
The LL can find himself in the position of dealing with the surrender of the tenancy without any paperwork, and the return of the Deposit monies, and/or deductions from the same, with the deceased NOK/family without any paperwork. This can carry the risk for the LL, with someone with proper authority could coming knocking, seeking an explanation for the LL's actions in his/her absence, with the result the LL could be legally held responsible to refund monies deducted without the proper authority.
With respect to the OP, we only have his side of the story, the LL/manager of an EPH have also a responsibility to the deceased, and are accountable if they act without reasonable care.
I am of the impression that many of the posters, consider if the deceased has no financial assets, then it is for the LL to suffer the financial loss. If it was my family member, then I would seek to reach an amicable financial settlement in bringing the tenancy to an end
In general, this LL having to have experienced the same situation, can be a very stressful process for ALL concerned. The crucial first step is to established who has the legal authority to act for the deceased tenant, and once established, to deal with that person as if they were the tenant.
The LL can find himself in the position of dealing with the surrender of the tenancy without any paperwork, and the return of the Deposit monies, and/or deductions from the same, with the deceased NOK/family without any paperwork. This can carry the risk for the LL, with someone with proper authority could coming knocking, seeking an explanation for the LL's actions in his/her absence, with the result the LL could be legally held responsible to refund monies deducted without the proper authority.
With respect to the OP, we only have his side of the story, the LL/manager of an EPH have also a responsibility to the deceased, and are accountable if they act without reasonable care.
I am of the impression that many of the posters, consider if the deceased has no financial assets, then it is for the LL to suffer the financial loss. If it was my family member, then I would seek to reach an amicable financial settlement in bringing the tenancy to an end
Wings said:
From the 1 June 2021 the LL just needs to issue a Section 8 two months Notice. It is in the NOK interest to negotiate with the LL and immediately surrender the end of the tenancy. The NOK also have a legal and moral obligation to cover the LL's losses for outstanding rental payments, replacement/repair main entrance door, cleaning etc. etc. Negotiate with the LL, and bring the deceased tenancy to an amicable conclusion.
All of this is nonsense. The NOK has no legal, much less a moral obligation to cover the LL’s losses. The estate retains the tenancy until legally ended. That could be either party giving notice or a mutual early termination. In this case, the LL is obstructing the estate in clearing the property and bringing the tenancy to an end. If the LL wants to use S8 to end the tenancy, he needs to use specific grounds. He’ll need a possession order, then a warrant of possession, then a bailiff’s appointment. He’d be very much the author of his own misfortune and cause of his own losses if he did anything that stupid.
Real world, he gives 2 months using S21, or agrees early termination, or the estate gives 1 month. Cleaning, sure, if it was clean at start of tenancy. Decoration, damages, maybe - but if TT was paying weekly in cash at some sketchy location I’ll wager that he’s not met his obligations. Probably a long tenancy too, so just about anything comes under FWT.
Under English Law, an assured shorthold tenancy does not end automatically on the death of a tenant. Consequently, landlords cannot make deductions or return deposits until the tenancy is brought to an end. If the tenancy is still within the fixed term, then the tenancy will pass to the tenant’s estate. If the tenancy is a periodic tenancy, then the tenancy will again pass to the tenant’s estate.
Notice period from 1 June 2021 Section 8 for death two (2) months. link below
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/support-for-ren...
Notice period from 1 June 2021 Section 8 for death two (2) months. link below
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/support-for-ren...
Wings said:
Talk to either a manager and/or an owner of an Elderly Persons Home (EPH), and often on the death of a resident, it is a person/s claiming to be a NOK, who have never previously visited the deceased person when alive, who are the first on the scene making claim to the deceased person's assets.
In general, this LL having to have experienced the same situation, can be a very stressful process for ALL concerned. The crucial first step is to established who has the legal authority to act for the deceased tenant, and once established, to deal with that person as if they were the tenant.
The LL can find himself in the position of dealing with the surrender of the tenancy without any paperwork, and the return of the Deposit monies, and/or deductions from the same, with the deceased NOK/family without any paperwork. This can carry the risk for the LL, with someone with proper authority could coming knocking, seeking an explanation for the LL's actions in his/her absence, with the result the LL could be legally held responsible to refund monies deducted without the proper authority.
With respect to the OP, we only have his side of the story, the LL/manager of an EPH have also a responsibility to the deceased, and are accountable if they act without reasonable care.
I am of the impression that many of the posters, consider if the deceased has no financial assets, then it is for the LL to suffer the financial loss. If it was my family member, then I would seek to reach an amicable financial settlement in bringing the tenancy to an end
Unless..... In general, this LL having to have experienced the same situation, can be a very stressful process for ALL concerned. The crucial first step is to established who has the legal authority to act for the deceased tenant, and once established, to deal with that person as if they were the tenant.
The LL can find himself in the position of dealing with the surrender of the tenancy without any paperwork, and the return of the Deposit monies, and/or deductions from the same, with the deceased NOK/family without any paperwork. This can carry the risk for the LL, with someone with proper authority could coming knocking, seeking an explanation for the LL's actions in his/her absence, with the result the LL could be legally held responsible to refund monies deducted without the proper authority.
With respect to the OP, we only have his side of the story, the LL/manager of an EPH have also a responsibility to the deceased, and are accountable if they act without reasonable care.
I am of the impression that many of the posters, consider if the deceased has no financial assets, then it is for the LL to suffer the financial loss. If it was my family member, then I would seek to reach an amicable financial settlement in bringing the tenancy to an end
Wildfire said:
Turns out the rent was paid in cash, weekly, to an office behind a snooker hall… I doubt there was even an agreement.
Wings said:
Under English Law, an assured shorthold tenancy does not end automatically on the death of a tenant. Consequently, landlords cannot make deductions or return deposits until the tenancy is brought to an end. If the tenancy is still within the fixed term, then the tenancy will pass to the tenant’s estate. If the tenancy is a periodic tenancy, then the tenancy will again pass to the tenant’s estate.
Notice period from 1 June 2021 Section 8 for death two (2) months. link below
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/support-for-ren...
No, an AST doesn’t end automatically. No-one has suggested that it does. S8 ground 7 doesn’t apply in this situation. The TT’s estate is actively trying to clear the property and hand it back. All the LL needs to do is not be a dick and agree a termination date. Notice period from 1 June 2021 Section 8 for death two (2) months. link below
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/support-for-ren...
Once the LL has paperwork in place to support the deceased NOK, then it is easier for all parties to settle the early surrender of the tenancy, together with a financial settlement. The same must be in writing, and witnessed by an independent person/s.
If the above can not be agreed, then being that there are lots of hurdles for a LL to satisfied, before being able to serve a Section 21 two (2) months Notice, then the LL should serve a Section 8 ground 7 (death) two (2) month Notice, where there are NO hurdles for a LL to satisfy. Being ground 7, the LL can also ask the court for other restrictions , bailiff notice period etc. etc. to be lifted.
Again obviously it is in all parties interest to seek an amicable settlement on the tenancy and financial agreement.
Probably worth seeking qualified legal advice on behalf of the elderly NOK if they are named executor. There could be all sorts of potential complications and somebody who lacks the capacity to deal with the situation (which is complicated and stressful at best) might want to simply renounce the responsibility.
If nobody is named or wants to do it - I have no idea what happens - but assuming the deceased doesn't have some valuables or money stashed away somewhere the LL has an insolvent estate to bring a claim against and everyone else might be better off just walking away from the situation.
I have some interesting characters in my family and in the situation one of them passed away and left me standing as NOK I can't say I'd be enthused about stepping up and taking personal responsibility for their liabilities.
Sorry for the loss OP.
If nobody is named or wants to do it - I have no idea what happens - but assuming the deceased doesn't have some valuables or money stashed away somewhere the LL has an insolvent estate to bring a claim against and everyone else might be better off just walking away from the situation.
I have some interesting characters in my family and in the situation one of them passed away and left me standing as NOK I can't say I'd be enthused about stepping up and taking personal responsibility for their liabilities.
Sorry for the loss OP.
Edited by theboss on Tuesday 3rd August 22:19
Wings said:
If it was my family member, then I would seek to reach an amicable financial settlement in bringing the tenancy to an end
As would I.The amicable financial settlement would be "let us clear the place out at our own expense/effort, and you can have it back to put it back on the market quickly. Use the deposit to cover dealing with the damage the police did to the door, we won't be chasing you for any of it."
Wings said:
Talk to either a manager and/or an owner of an Elderly Persons Home (EPH), and often on the death of a resident, it is a person/s claiming to be a NOK, who have never previously visited the deceased person when alive, who are the first on the scene making claim to the deceased person's assets.
We had a patient who lived in a flat around the corner from the pharmacy who died one evening at around 5pm. We closed at 5.30pm and I walked around the corner to find relatives already carrying furniture out to their car. 
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