Birmingham ULEZ - Anyone waiting on appeal?
Discussion
ATM said:
I will make my response along these lines and hope they see sense. They can punch in my reg into the tfl and see the result. I would guess they have a separate system or database of vehicles to the tfl setup. Which again seems like nonsense but hardly surprising with the state of UK and systems like this.
HelloI have only just found this PCN letter because I have been away from home .... personal info removed .... I returned home yesterday now that it is safe for me to do so and found this PCN. So now I am responding.
I do not live in Birmingham. This Clean Air Zone is new to Me. I was aware of it but this is the first time I have driven in Birmingham since it started. I will admit I didn’t know where the Clean Air Zone started and ended and I will explain why further below.
I have only just purchased this car. I purchased it in July 2021. Prior to purchasing this car I made sure that it was ULEZ exempt as my friend lives near the ULEZ area in London.
London ULEZ check website - https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicl...
This Transport For London website tells me this car is ULEZ exempt. Therefore I assumed it was exempt from all ULEZ areas. I am now confused as to why you would think this car is not ULEZ exempt but the website for Transport For London says it is.
I have been researching this subject for the last few hours as obviously I am shocked to see a fine for 120 pound when I thought this car was exempt from such charges. It seems that each vehicle should have a Certificate of Conformity and I have to request this from the manufacturer. This I have done but it may take some time to arrive.
I have read details from other owners of similar vehicles who have requested the Certificate of Conformity and then used this information to make representations to the Transport For London website to get their car reclassified as being exempt. Simply because the car meets the emissions standards required for ULEZ even though it was manufactured at a time when EUR 4 did not exist and therefore the car is only designated as EUR 3. So this may be why the Transport For London website tells me the car is ULEZ exempt.
Clearly you are not using the information from this website. I have checked many other websites and all of these tell me the car is ULEZ exempt. The only website which does not agree is this one - https://vehiclecheck.drive-clean-air-zone.service....
Therefore I can only assume that you are using this website’s table or list of vehicles. And that this obviously differs from every other website including the one for Transport For London.
So in summary it is my belief that this car will meet the emissions standards required to be exempt from ULEZ charges in any and all clean air zones. As soon as I have the information supporting this from Porsche I will of course pass this along.
Thanks
ATM
There's an interesting thread here about older cars in the ULEZ / clean air zones and the related NOX levels. Might be useful to you.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
mgtony said:
There's an interesting thread here about older cars in the ULEZ / clean air zones and the related NOX levels. Might be useful to you.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
That's a great thread and confirms what I'd heard about the e46 and process in general.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ATM - I would check the V5 and if NOx levels are listed as being below 0.08 would include a copy of the V5 in your response and then use the DVLA link within that thread to request DVLA update their records around CAZ compliance using the data they already hold.
https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz
Herr Schnell said:
mgtony said:
There's an interesting thread here about older cars in the ULEZ / clean air zones and the related NOX levels. Might be useful to you.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
That's a great thread and confirms what I'd heard about the e46 and process in general.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ATM - I would check the V5 and if NOx levels are listed as being below 0.08 would include a copy of the V5 in your response and then use the DVLA link within that thread to request DVLA update their records around CAZ compliance using the data they already hold.
https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz
DVLA Person said:
Dear Mr ATM
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is REMOVED.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.
It may help if I explain that the Clean Air Zone scheme is not linked to Transport for London's Ultra-Low Emission Zone and can only be found in locations outside London. However, we are working with Transport for London to ensure as much consistency as possible between our Clean Air Zone vehicle checker and the ULEZ system. We would advise all drivers to use the relevant vehicle checker for the zone they intend to travel into if they are unsure if their vehicle meets the standards.
After checking the vehicle record, I can see this vehicle was first registered in 2001. I have checked the vehicle details on the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker and this vehicle will be subject to a daily charge of £8.
The minimum emission standards for Birmingham Clean Air Zone are Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel.
Euro 4 became mandatory for all new petrol cars and light duty vans from 1st January 2006 and Euro 6 became mandatory for cars and vans from 1st September 2015, and for buses, coaches and HGVs from 31st December 2013.
As your vehicle was first registered prior to the introduction of these Euro Standards, I would expect that it would not be compliant with the emission standards of Clean Air Zones, and so would be subject to Clean Air Zone charges.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xx... [Salesforce Case Id Removed]
Name Removed
So I am going to reply along these lines ....Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is REMOVED.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.
It may help if I explain that the Clean Air Zone scheme is not linked to Transport for London's Ultra-Low Emission Zone and can only be found in locations outside London. However, we are working with Transport for London to ensure as much consistency as possible between our Clean Air Zone vehicle checker and the ULEZ system. We would advise all drivers to use the relevant vehicle checker for the zone they intend to travel into if they are unsure if their vehicle meets the standards.
After checking the vehicle record, I can see this vehicle was first registered in 2001. I have checked the vehicle details on the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker and this vehicle will be subject to a daily charge of £8.
The minimum emission standards for Birmingham Clean Air Zone are Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel.
Euro 4 became mandatory for all new petrol cars and light duty vans from 1st January 2006 and Euro 6 became mandatory for cars and vans from 1st September 2015, and for buses, coaches and HGVs from 31st December 2013.
As your vehicle was first registered prior to the introduction of these Euro Standards, I would expect that it would not be compliant with the emission standards of Clean Air Zones, and so would be subject to Clean Air Zone charges.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xx... [Salesforce Case Id Removed]
Name Removed
ATM Brilliant Reply said:
Thanks for your prompt response. Yes exactly as I guessed. I do this sort of thing for my job so I assumed the systems were not linked and therefore you have your list of vehicles and the London website also has their list of Vehicles and the two are detached.
1. Currently your systems are separate. This surely needs fixing. If you check my vehicle on the London website it shows it as EUR 3 and exempt.
2. Yes my vehicle was manufactured in 2001 and therefore is only marked as EUR 3. Understood.
If I may drawer your attention to the important points.
3. My car can still be compliant with the standards required to meet EUR 4 even though it was manufactured prior to EUR 4. Think of it this way. Lets say we bring out a new system for recognising the efficiency of a toaster. Called Toaster Economy 1. Now all older toasters are not designated. But do we throw them all away because they are rubbish? Or do we ask the manufacturer of an older toaster we already own if it could meet these new Toaster standards. If they say yes then the toaster is compliant even though it does not say Toaster Economy 1 on the packaging. Your old toaster is still a great toaster. It was already compliant with Toaster Economy 1 before these standards were mandated.
4. My car is shown as ULEZ exempt on the London website because someone else has probably already gone through the process of demonstrating to the London website people that one of these cars manufactured prior to 2006 can still meet the emissions standards required. Therefore the car is EUR 4 compliant even though it was manufactured prior to 2006. Meaning if the same car was manufactured in 2006 - exactly the same - no changes whatsoever - it would be EUR 4. Therefore what I am saying is my car meets the emissions requirements required to be EUR 4 - even though it is not designated as EUR 4. This is why the London website shows it as exempt - there is no other explanation unless their system is just broken.
1. Currently your systems are separate. This surely needs fixing. If you check my vehicle on the London website it shows it as EUR 3 and exempt.
2. Yes my vehicle was manufactured in 2001 and therefore is only marked as EUR 3. Understood.
If I may drawer your attention to the important points.
3. My car can still be compliant with the standards required to meet EUR 4 even though it was manufactured prior to EUR 4. Think of it this way. Lets say we bring out a new system for recognising the efficiency of a toaster. Called Toaster Economy 1. Now all older toasters are not designated. But do we throw them all away because they are rubbish? Or do we ask the manufacturer of an older toaster we already own if it could meet these new Toaster standards. If they say yes then the toaster is compliant even though it does not say Toaster Economy 1 on the packaging. Your old toaster is still a great toaster. It was already compliant with Toaster Economy 1 before these standards were mandated.
4. My car is shown as ULEZ exempt on the London website because someone else has probably already gone through the process of demonstrating to the London website people that one of these cars manufactured prior to 2006 can still meet the emissions standards required. Therefore the car is EUR 4 compliant even though it was manufactured prior to 2006. Meaning if the same car was manufactured in 2006 - exactly the same - no changes whatsoever - it would be EUR 4. Therefore what I am saying is my car meets the emissions requirements required to be EUR 4 - even though it is not designated as EUR 4. This is why the London website shows it as exempt - there is no other explanation unless their system is just broken.
Unfortunately Birmingham have a record of being particularly stubborn over issues such as this.
For example their parking zone schemes. It was shown numerous times that their signage advising drivers of the parking zones was not compliant with the UK legislation and that they should fix it.
They chose to ignore that, continued to issue tickets, when someone appealed automatically refuse that first appeal, but for those who took it to the next stage and contested it they then would fold and cancel the penalty before it went to any adjudication.
Utter gits.
For example their parking zone schemes. It was shown numerous times that their signage advising drivers of the parking zones was not compliant with the UK legislation and that they should fix it.
They chose to ignore that, continued to issue tickets, when someone appealed automatically refuse that first appeal, but for those who took it to the next stage and contested it they then would fold and cancel the penalty before it went to any adjudication.
Utter gits.
Some helpful enthusiasts have come to the rescue via another thread on here
My 986 details - http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
EUR 4 details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
Summary - it is under all 3 of the variables required to meet EUR 4
.................................. My Car ------------ EUR 4
CO ------------------ 0.613 -------------- 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.088 -------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.048 -------------- 0.08
My 986 details - http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
EUR 4 details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
Summary - it is under all 3 of the variables required to meet EUR 4
.................................. My Car ------------ EUR 4
CO ------------------ 0.613 -------------- 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.088 -------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.048 -------------- 0.08
ATM said:
Some helpful enthusiasts have come to the rescue via another thread on here
My 986 details - http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
EUR 4 details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
Summary - it is under all 3 of the variables required to meet EUR 4
.................................. My Car ------------ EUR 4
CO ------------------ 0.613 -------------- 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.088 -------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.048 -------------- 0.08
Pretty shocking that the Council expect you to pay a charge on the grounds they "expect that" your car doesn't meet Euro 4 and having no evidence that it doesn't.My 986 details - http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
EUR 4 details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
Summary - it is under all 3 of the variables required to meet EUR 4
.................................. My Car ------------ EUR 4
CO ------------------ 0.613 -------------- 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.088 -------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.048 -------------- 0.08
Hopefully that information shows their expectation to be incorrect and they back down. Unfortunately though BCC are not known for logic and sense in their decision making.
Herr Schnell said:
ATM said:
Some helpful enthusiasts have come to the rescue via another thread on here
My 986 details - http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
EUR 4 details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
Summary - it is under all 3 of the variables required to meet EUR 4
.................................. My Car ------------ EUR 4
CO ------------------ 0.613 -------------- 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.088 -------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.048 -------------- 0.08
Pretty shocking that the Council expect you to pay a charge on the grounds they "expect that" your car doesn't meet Euro 4 and having no evidence that it doesn't.My 986 details - http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
EUR 4 details - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
Summary - it is under all 3 of the variables required to meet EUR 4
.................................. My Car ------------ EUR 4
CO ------------------ 0.613 -------------- 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.088 -------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.048 -------------- 0.08
Hopefully that information shows their expectation to be incorrect and they back down. Unfortunately though BCC are not known for logic and sense in their decision making.
ATM said:
Herr Schnell said:
mgtony said:
There's an interesting thread here about older cars in the ULEZ / clean air zones and the related NOX levels. Might be useful to you.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
That's a great thread and confirms what I'd heard about the e46 and process in general.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ATM - I would check the V5 and if NOx levels are listed as being below 0.08 would include a copy of the V5 in your response and then use the DVLA link within that thread to request DVLA update their records around CAZ compliance using the data they already hold.
https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz
DVLA Person said:
Dear Mr ATM
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is REMOVED.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.?
It may help if I explain that the Clean Air Zone scheme is not linked to Transport for London's Ultra-Low Emission Zone and can only be found in locations outside London. However, we are working with Transport for London to ensure as much consistency as possible between our Clean Air Zone vehicle checker and the ULEZ system. We would advise all drivers to use the relevant vehicle checker for the zone they intend to travel into if they are unsure if their vehicle meets the standards.
After checking the vehicle record, I can see this vehicle was first registered in 2001. I have checked the vehicle details on the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker and this vehicle will be subject to a daily charge of £8.
The minimum emission standards for Birmingham Clean Air Zone are Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel.
Euro 4 became mandatory for all new petrol cars and light duty vans from 1st January 2006 and Euro 6 became mandatory for cars and vans from 1st September 2015, and for buses, coaches and HGVs from 31st December 2013.
As your vehicle was first registered prior to the introduction of these Euro Standards, I would expect that it would not be compliant with the emission standards of Clean Air Zones, and so would be subject to Clean Air Zone charges.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xx... [Salesforce Case Id Removed]
Name Removed
So I am going to reply along these lines ....Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is REMOVED.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.?
It may help if I explain that the Clean Air Zone scheme is not linked to Transport for London's Ultra-Low Emission Zone and can only be found in locations outside London. However, we are working with Transport for London to ensure as much consistency as possible between our Clean Air Zone vehicle checker and the ULEZ system. We would advise all drivers to use the relevant vehicle checker for the zone they intend to travel into if they are unsure if their vehicle meets the standards.
After checking the vehicle record, I can see this vehicle was first registered in 2001. I have checked the vehicle details on the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker and this vehicle will be subject to a daily charge of £8.
The minimum emission standards for Birmingham Clean Air Zone are Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel.
Euro 4 became mandatory for all new petrol cars and light duty vans from 1st January 2006 and Euro 6 became mandatory for cars and vans from 1st September 2015, and for buses, coaches and HGVs from 31st December 2013.
As your vehicle was first registered prior to the introduction of these Euro Standards, I would expect that it would not be compliant with the emission standards of Clean Air Zones, and so would be subject to Clean Air Zone charges.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xx... [Salesforce Case Id Removed]
Name Removed
ATM Brilliant Reply said:
Thanks for your prompt response. Yes exactly as I guessed. I do this sort of thing for my job so I assumed the systems were not linked and therefore you have your list of vehicles and the London website also has their list of Vehicles and the two are detached.
1. Currently your systems are separate. This surely needs fixing. If you check my vehicle on the London website it shows it as EUR 3 and exempt.
2. Yes my vehicle was manufactured in 2001 and therefore is only marked as EUR 3. Understood.
If I may drawer your attention to the important points.
3. My car can still be compliant with the standards required to meet EUR 4 even though it was manufactured prior to EUR 4. Think of it this way. Lets say we bring out a new system for recognising the efficiency of a toaster. Called Toaster Economy 1. Now all older toasters are not designated. But do we throw them all away because they are rubbish? Or do we ask the manufacturer of an older toaster we already own if it could meet these new Toaster standards. If they say yes then the toaster is compliant even though it does not say Toaster Economy 1 on the packaging. Your old toaster is still a great toaster. It was already compliant with Toaster Economy 1 before these standards were mandated.
4. My car is shown as ULEZ exempt on the London website because someone else has probably already gone through the process of demonstrating to the London website people that one of these cars manufactured prior to 2006 can still meet the emissions standards required. Therefore the car is EUR 4 compliant even though it was manufactured prior to 2006. Meaning if the same car was manufactured in 2006 - exactly the same - no changes whatsoever - it would be EUR 4. Therefore what I am saying is my car meets the emissions requirements required to be EUR 4 - even though it is not designated as EUR 4. This is why the London website shows it as exempt - there is no other explanation unless their system is just broken.
1. Currently your systems are separate. This surely needs fixing. If you check my vehicle on the London website it shows it as EUR 3 and exempt.
2. Yes my vehicle was manufactured in 2001 and therefore is only marked as EUR 3. Understood.
If I may drawer your attention to the important points.
3. My car can still be compliant with the standards required to meet EUR 4 even though it was manufactured prior to EUR 4. Think of it this way. Lets say we bring out a new system for recognising the efficiency of a toaster. Called Toaster Economy 1. Now all older toasters are not designated. But do we throw them all away because they are rubbish? Or do we ask the manufacturer of an older toaster we already own if it could meet these new Toaster standards. If they say yes then the toaster is compliant even though it does not say Toaster Economy 1 on the packaging. Your old toaster is still a great toaster. It was already compliant with Toaster Economy 1 before these standards were mandated.
4. My car is shown as ULEZ exempt on the London website because someone else has probably already gone through the process of demonstrating to the London website people that one of these cars manufactured prior to 2006 can still meet the emissions standards required. Therefore the car is EUR 4 compliant even though it was manufactured prior to 2006. Meaning if the same car was manufactured in 2006 - exactly the same - no changes whatsoever - it would be EUR 4. Therefore what I am saying is my car meets the emissions requirements required to be EUR 4 - even though it is not designated as EUR 4. This is why the London website shows it as exempt - there is no other explanation unless their system is just broken.
DVLA Person said:
Name Removed
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is 000XXXXX.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.
If you believe your vehicle meets either the Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel Euro Standard, you will need to supply evidence of the Euro Standard from the manufacturer to update the DVLA vehicle record and the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker.
This evidence can be in the way of a Certificate of Conformity or a letter from the manufacturer’s homologation unit clearly stating the vehicle registration number, VIN number and the Euro Standard.
Please use the reply link below and attach the evidence along with a scanned copy/photograph of your V5C Registration Certificate.
When we have received this, we can investigate the details and where required, update both the DVLA record and the Drive in a Clean Air Zone Service.
When the record has been updated, you will receive a new V5C within 4 weeks. When this arrives, you will need to destroy the current document.
Please be aware, if you need to drive into or within the zone while these investigations are ongoing, you will still need to make a payment. If the outcome of the investigation shows your vehicle as compliant, you can see if you are eligible for a refund on the Local Authority website https://www.brumbreathes.co.uk/
I hope this information is of assistance to you and answers your enquiry.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link:linkhttps://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xxxxx
Name Removed
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is 000XXXXX.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.
If you believe your vehicle meets either the Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel Euro Standard, you will need to supply evidence of the Euro Standard from the manufacturer to update the DVLA vehicle record and the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker.
This evidence can be in the way of a Certificate of Conformity or a letter from the manufacturer’s homologation unit clearly stating the vehicle registration number, VIN number and the Euro Standard.
Please use the reply link below and attach the evidence along with a scanned copy/photograph of your V5C Registration Certificate.
When we have received this, we can investigate the details and where required, update both the DVLA record and the Drive in a Clean Air Zone Service.
When the record has been updated, you will receive a new V5C within 4 weeks. When this arrives, you will need to destroy the current document.
Please be aware, if you need to drive into or within the zone while these investigations are ongoing, you will still need to make a payment. If the outcome of the investigation shows your vehicle as compliant, you can see if you are eligible for a refund on the Local Authority website https://www.brumbreathes.co.uk/
I hope this information is of assistance to you and answers your enquiry.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link:linkhttps://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xxxxx
Name Removed
ATM Latest Brilliant Reply said:
Ok thanks
I have requested a Certificate of Conformity.
In the meantime I have found this website which shows the 3 important values for my car -
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
It shows for my car -
CO ------------------ 0.613
THC ---------------- 0.088
NOx ---------------- 0.048
I believe EUR 4 is the following
CO ------------------ 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.08
Clearly you can see that for all 3 metrics my car is lower. So I am confident that once this Certificate of Conformity arrives it will prove this.
Thanks
ATM
I have requested a Certificate of Conformity.
In the meantime I have found this website which shows the 3 important values for my car -
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
It shows for my car -
CO ------------------ 0.613
THC ---------------- 0.088
NOx ---------------- 0.048
I believe EUR 4 is the following
CO ------------------ 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.08
Clearly you can see that for all 3 metrics my car is lower. So I am confident that once this Certificate of Conformity arrives it will prove this.
Thanks
ATM
ATM said:
ATM said:
Herr Schnell said:
mgtony said:
There's an interesting thread here about older cars in the ULEZ / clean air zones and the related NOX levels. Might be useful to you.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
That's a great thread and confirms what I'd heard about the e46 and process in general.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ATM - I would check the V5 and if NOx levels are listed as being below 0.08 would include a copy of the V5 in your response and then use the DVLA link within that thread to request DVLA update their records around CAZ compliance using the data they already hold.
https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz
DVLA Person said:
Dear Mr ATM
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is REMOVED.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.?
It may help if I explain that the Clean Air Zone scheme is not linked to Transport for London's Ultra-Low Emission Zone and can only be found in locations outside London. However, we are working with Transport for London to ensure as much consistency as possible between our Clean Air Zone vehicle checker and the ULEZ system. We would advise all drivers to use the relevant vehicle checker for the zone they intend to travel into if they are unsure if their vehicle meets the standards.
After checking the vehicle record, I can see this vehicle was first registered in 2001. I have checked the vehicle details on the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker and this vehicle will be subject to a daily charge of £8.
The minimum emission standards for Birmingham Clean Air Zone are Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel.
Euro 4 became mandatory for all new petrol cars and light duty vans from 1st January 2006 and Euro 6 became mandatory for cars and vans from 1st September 2015, and for buses, coaches and HGVs from 31st December 2013.
As your vehicle was first registered prior to the introduction of these Euro Standards, I would expect that it would not be compliant with the emission standards of Clean Air Zones, and so would be subject to Clean Air Zone charges.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xx... [Salesforce Case Id Removed]
Name Removed
So I am going to reply along these lines ....Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is REMOVED.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.?
It may help if I explain that the Clean Air Zone scheme is not linked to Transport for London's Ultra-Low Emission Zone and can only be found in locations outside London. However, we are working with Transport for London to ensure as much consistency as possible between our Clean Air Zone vehicle checker and the ULEZ system. We would advise all drivers to use the relevant vehicle checker for the zone they intend to travel into if they are unsure if their vehicle meets the standards.
After checking the vehicle record, I can see this vehicle was first registered in 2001. I have checked the vehicle details on the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker and this vehicle will be subject to a daily charge of £8.
The minimum emission standards for Birmingham Clean Air Zone are Euro 4 petrol and Euro 6 diesel.
Euro 4 became mandatory for all new petrol cars and light duty vans from 1st January 2006 and Euro 6 became mandatory for cars and vans from 1st September 2015, and for buses, coaches and HGVs from 31st December 2013.
As your vehicle was first registered prior to the introduction of these Euro Standards, I would expect that it would not be compliant with the emission standards of Clean Air Zones, and so would be subject to Clean Air Zone charges.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xx... [Salesforce Case Id Removed]
Name Removed
ATM Brilliant Reply said:
Thanks for your prompt response. Yes exactly as I guessed. I do this sort of thing for my job so I assumed the systems were not linked and therefore you have your list of vehicles and the London website also has their list of Vehicles and the two are detached.
1. Currently your systems are separate. This surely needs fixing. If you check my vehicle on the London website it shows it as EUR 3 and exempt.
2. Yes my vehicle was manufactured in 2001 and therefore is only marked as EUR 3. Understood.
If I may drawer your attention to the important points.
3. My car can still be compliant with the standards required to meet EUR 4 even though it was manufactured prior to EUR 4. Think of it this way. Lets say we bring out a new system for recognising the efficiency of a toaster. Called Toaster Economy 1. Now all older toasters are not designated. But do we throw them all away because they are rubbish? Or do we ask the manufacturer of an older toaster we already own if it could meet these new Toaster standards. If they say yes then the toaster is compliant even though it does not say Toaster Economy 1 on the packaging. Your old toaster is still a great toaster. It was already compliant with Toaster Economy 1 before these standards were mandated.
4. My car is shown as ULEZ exempt on the London website because someone else has probably already gone through the process of demonstrating to the London website people that one of these cars manufactured prior to 2006 can still meet the emissions standards required. Therefore the car is EUR 4 compliant even though it was manufactured prior to 2006. Meaning if the same car was manufactured in 2006 - exactly the same - no changes whatsoever - it would be EUR 4. Therefore what I am saying is my car meets the emissions requirements required to be EUR 4 - even though it is not designated as EUR 4. This is why the London website shows it as exempt - there is no other explanation unless their system is just broken.
1. Currently your systems are separate. This surely needs fixing. If you check my vehicle on the London website it shows it as EUR 3 and exempt.
2. Yes my vehicle was manufactured in 2001 and therefore is only marked as EUR 3. Understood.
If I may drawer your attention to the important points.
3. My car can still be compliant with the standards required to meet EUR 4 even though it was manufactured prior to EUR 4. Think of it this way. Lets say we bring out a new system for recognising the efficiency of a toaster. Called Toaster Economy 1. Now all older toasters are not designated. But do we throw them all away because they are rubbish? Or do we ask the manufacturer of an older toaster we already own if it could meet these new Toaster standards. If they say yes then the toaster is compliant even though it does not say Toaster Economy 1 on the packaging. Your old toaster is still a great toaster. It was already compliant with Toaster Economy 1 before these standards were mandated.
4. My car is shown as ULEZ exempt on the London website because someone else has probably already gone through the process of demonstrating to the London website people that one of these cars manufactured prior to 2006 can still meet the emissions standards required. Therefore the car is EUR 4 compliant even though it was manufactured prior to 2006. Meaning if the same car was manufactured in 2006 - exactly the same - no changes whatsoever - it would be EUR 4. Therefore what I am saying is my car meets the emissions requirements required to be EUR 4 - even though it is not designated as EUR 4. This is why the London website shows it as exempt - there is no other explanation unless their system is just broken.
DVLA Person said:
Name Removed
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is 000XXXXX.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.?
If you believe your vehicle meets either the Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel Euro Standard, you will need to supply evidence of the Euro Standard from the manufacturer to update the DVLA vehicle record and the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker.
This evidence can be in the way of a Certificate of Conformity or a letter from the manufacturer’s homologation unit clearly stating the vehicle registration number, VIN number and the Euro Standard.
Please use the reply link below and attach the evidence along with a scanned copy/photograph of your V5C Registration Certificate.
When we have received this, we can investigate the details and where required, update both the DVLA record and the Drive in a Clean Air Zone Service.
When the record has been updated, you will receive a new V5C within 4 weeks. When this arrives, you will need to destroy the current document.
Please be aware, if you need to drive into or within the zone while these investigations are ongoing, you will still need to make a payment. If the outcome of the investigation shows your vehicle as compliant, you can see if you are eligible for a refund on the Local Authority website https://www.brumbreathes.co.uk/
I hope this information is of assistance to you and answers your enquiry.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link:linkhttps://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xxxxx
Name Removed
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is 000XXXXX.
We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us in relation to this matter.?
If you believe your vehicle meets either the Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel Euro Standard, you will need to supply evidence of the Euro Standard from the manufacturer to update the DVLA vehicle record and the Clean Air Zone Vehicle Checker.
This evidence can be in the way of a Certificate of Conformity or a letter from the manufacturer’s homologation unit clearly stating the vehicle registration number, VIN number and the Euro Standard.
Please use the reply link below and attach the evidence along with a scanned copy/photograph of your V5C Registration Certificate.
When we have received this, we can investigate the details and where required, update both the DVLA record and the Drive in a Clean Air Zone Service.
When the record has been updated, you will receive a new V5C within 4 weeks. When this arrives, you will need to destroy the current document.
Please be aware, if you need to drive into or within the zone while these investigations are ongoing, you will still need to make a payment. If the outcome of the investigation shows your vehicle as compliant, you can see if you are eligible for a refund on the Local Authority website https://www.brumbreathes.co.uk/
I hope this information is of assistance to you and answers your enquiry.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link:linkhttps://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xxxxx
Name Removed
ATM Latest Brilliant Reply said:
Ok thanks
I have requested a Certificate of Conformity.
In the meantime I have found this website which shows the 3 important values for my car -
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
It shows for my car -
CO ------------------ 0.613
THC ---------------- 0.088
NOx ---------------- 0.048
I believe EUR 4 is the following
CO ------------------ 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.08
Clearly you can see that for all 3 metrics my car is lower. So I am confident that once this Certificate of Conformity arrives it will prove this.
Thanks
ATM
I have requested a Certificate of Conformity.
In the meantime I have found this website which shows the 3 important values for my car -
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/porsche-all-models-...
It shows for my car -
CO ------------------ 0.613
THC ---------------- 0.088
NOx ---------------- 0.048
I believe EUR 4 is the following
CO ------------------ 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.08
Clearly you can see that for all 3 metrics my car is lower. So I am confident that once this Certificate of Conformity arrives it will prove this.
Thanks
ATM
A Different DVLA Person said:
Dear Mr ATM
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is 000xxxxx.
It may help to explain that the previous response provided to you is correct.
Once you have the valid evidence confirming the Euro status please follow the instructions provided on the previous email so that this can be investigated and record updated if required.
I look forward to hearing from you once you have the evidence.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link:linkhttps://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xxxxxxx
Name Removed
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is 000xxxxx.
It may help to explain that the previous response provided to you is correct.
Once you have the valid evidence confirming the Euro status please follow the instructions provided on the previous email so that this can be investigated and record updated if required.
I look forward to hearing from you once you have the evidence.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form link:linkhttps://contact.dvla.gov.uk/response?case_id=500xxxxxxx
Name Removed
Herr Schnell said:
ATM - I would check the V5 and if NOx levels are listed as being below 0.08 would include a copy of the V5 in your response and then use the DVLA link within that thread to request DVLA update their records around CAZ compliance using the data they already hold.
https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz
I'm still fighting this and even though I thought I'd clearly win I am being beaten back into the losing camp. I'm tempted to just pay the £120 fine now but that is giving up. So please help inspire me with words of encouragement or ideally some genuine advice.https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz
So my initial appeal was along the line of this car is ULEZ exempt in London, I know this because I checked it when I bought it, therefore I assumed it was ULEZ exempt everywhere. I now see it is not. This is a total surprise to me. I therefore expect that you use 2 separate databases from the TFL. They said yes thats right and you still need to pay up.
In the meantime I started an enquiry with the DVLA via the link above. They told me to get the Certificate of Conformity from Porsche. Which I did.
I then sent them electronic scans of this in 2 parts or 2 files - which is a challenge as their contact form only accepts 1 file a at time so I had to submit the for twice. Attached below.
Eventually after lots of back and forth with them just saying the document was not sufficient and does not show my vehicle is exempt someone there amazing helpful - yes I am being a bit generous - pointed out that the reason they were not accepting this document was that there was a difference in the chassis number. It is 7 characters from the end.
WP0ZZZ98Z1S640444 - Porsche
WP0ZZZ98Z15640444 - DVLA
So I then had to go through the process of changing this with a different department of the DVLA. I spoke to another helpful person at the DVLA about it. The process to get chassis number changed is to send a letter - no emails accepted. The letter has to include the old or current V5 and also the evidence showing the correct chassis number. The helpful person suggested a photo of the car - yes an actual printed photo as there is no email option. Letters to the DVLA can take 6 weeks to be processed apparently. I have done this and recently received back my updated V5.
So then I contacted the DVLA again via the link above with my Case number. The assumption was there would be no more barriers and they would say yes thanks well done etc.
No
Another canned response saying document not sufficient.
So just in case I wrote a new reply and submitted the document again - in 2 parts - and explained in as many words as possible - the form has a limit - without sounding like a knob - difficult - that I dont understand why they will not accept this so can they please explain in a few more words so I can understand what the problem is - I am paraphrasing. I will copy and past their response below the docs.
So I feel like where I am now is either - these will only make sense maybe if you have read their response below -
1. They only see half the document as their system only stores the latest attachment uploaded - IT issues
2. They want the document to state - Vehicle is EUR 4 tick
3. They dont understand what the numbers mean on the certificate of conformity and are not even trying to understand them - Feels unlikely given that they have asked for a certificate of conformity and this is what I have provided
4. The car really is not compliant or does not meet the EUR 4 standards
DVLA Person said:
Dear ATM
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is Case Number Removed.
It may help to explain that the previous response provided to you is correct.
Thank you for supplying the document attached. After reviewing this, I can confirm that it does not meet the requirements for us to update the vehicle record with the relevant Euro status.
I can see that you have sent a Certificate of Conformity, however, in order for us to update the record it would need to confirm the Euro status of the vehicle.
If you wish to have the vehicle record updated, you will need to obtain the evidence stated above confirming the Euro status. Please use the reply link below and attach the relevant evidence.
When we have received this, we can investigate the details and where required, update both the DVLA record and the Drive in a Clean Air Zone Service. In order for it to be compliant it would need to have a minimum Euro 4 status.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form Link Removed
Name Removed
Thank you for your enquiry received on 05/01/2022. Your case reference number is Case Number Removed.
It may help to explain that the previous response provided to you is correct.
Thank you for supplying the document attached. After reviewing this, I can confirm that it does not meet the requirements for us to update the vehicle record with the relevant Euro status.
I can see that you have sent a Certificate of Conformity, however, in order for us to update the record it would need to confirm the Euro status of the vehicle.
If you wish to have the vehicle record updated, you will need to obtain the evidence stated above confirming the Euro status. Please use the reply link below and attach the relevant evidence.
When we have received this, we can investigate the details and where required, update both the DVLA record and the Drive in a Clean Air Zone Service. In order for it to be compliant it would need to have a minimum Euro 4 status.
I hope this information provides a further insight for you.
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our reply form Link Removed
Name Removed
Back in Feb 2019 I went to London on a visit to a museum.
Used TFL to get details of zones, charges etc. Decided to use a hotel outside the charge zones for two reasons.
Didn’t want the hassle of traffic, road restrictions and having to be ultra alert for no-go areas.
Tube/ buses chosen so got TFL travel cards to use.
My car was euro5 so no major issues anyway and a check of exemption status done on their website.
Out of curiosity I put in details for my other car. 2002 Morgan Plus8, Rover V8 engine as used in Discoveries and the later engine management system. Showed ok.
Late last year I did another check and it was no longer exempt.
My guess is that as it is a low volume production car they hadn’t got round to assessing it.
It does beggar belief that different cities can put different interpretations on what is a basic emissions declaration. Does a car exempt from charges in London suddenly start emitting more crap in Birmingham?
This smacks of opportunism to generate cash by hitting what has been seen as a massive cash cow.
I don’t intend driving in the big cities unless I have to so pre-checking the zone issues will be done if needed. The expansion of car ban zones and pay to use toll roads is not looking good though.
Remember e Severn Crossing tolls? Eventually removed but years after the cost of building was recouped.
Used TFL to get details of zones, charges etc. Decided to use a hotel outside the charge zones for two reasons.
Didn’t want the hassle of traffic, road restrictions and having to be ultra alert for no-go areas.
Tube/ buses chosen so got TFL travel cards to use.
My car was euro5 so no major issues anyway and a check of exemption status done on their website.
Out of curiosity I put in details for my other car. 2002 Morgan Plus8, Rover V8 engine as used in Discoveries and the later engine management system. Showed ok.
Late last year I did another check and it was no longer exempt.
My guess is that as it is a low volume production car they hadn’t got round to assessing it.
It does beggar belief that different cities can put different interpretations on what is a basic emissions declaration. Does a car exempt from charges in London suddenly start emitting more crap in Birmingham?
This smacks of opportunism to generate cash by hitting what has been seen as a massive cash cow.
I don’t intend driving in the big cities unless I have to so pre-checking the zone issues will be done if needed. The expansion of car ban zones and pay to use toll roads is not looking good though.
Remember e Severn Crossing tolls? Eventually removed but years after the cost of building was recouped.
Edited by sospan on Saturday 26th February 13:31
To me its quite simple. I believe EUR 4 requires the car to be below in these following metrics if it is petrol -
CO ------------------ 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.08
The certificate of conformity shows for my car -
CO ------------------ 0.613
THC ---------------- 0.088
NOx ---------------- 0.048
What more do they need to know?
CO ------------------ 1.0
THC ---------------- 0.1
NOx ---------------- 0.08
The certificate of conformity shows for my car -
CO ------------------ 0.613
THC ---------------- 0.088
NOx ---------------- 0.048
What more do they need to know?
You know that, we know that.
They haven't really stated why they say the document does not meet their needs, they need to be asked to declare that in detail. It clearly provides the test result evidence, but not in English. As above I'd be tempted to get a certified translation, that removes that excuse. Clearly as the date of the certificate of conformity predates Euro4 it's never going to say complies with Euro 4, unless you can get Porsche to write that somehow.
One other thing just to be certain, did test procedures change pre and post Euro 4. I don't know, but can see how some slippery sod of a lawyer might argue that if so, needs checking.
If they are still being difficult I guess options are a complaint to whatever ombudsman or equivalent deals with the shambles at Swansea, as far as Birmingham is concerned surely for you the next step is to go to some official arbitration service, just like parking offences, or a see you in court. Or just pay up, least favoured option obviously.
Beyond that I have nothing.
They haven't really stated why they say the document does not meet their needs, they need to be asked to declare that in detail. It clearly provides the test result evidence, but not in English. As above I'd be tempted to get a certified translation, that removes that excuse. Clearly as the date of the certificate of conformity predates Euro4 it's never going to say complies with Euro 4, unless you can get Porsche to write that somehow.
One other thing just to be certain, did test procedures change pre and post Euro 4. I don't know, but can see how some slippery sod of a lawyer might argue that if so, needs checking.
If they are still being difficult I guess options are a complaint to whatever ombudsman or equivalent deals with the shambles at Swansea, as far as Birmingham is concerned surely for you the next step is to go to some official arbitration service, just like parking offences, or a see you in court. Or just pay up, least favoured option obviously.
Beyond that I have nothing.
FiF said:
You know that, we know that.
They haven't really stated why they say the document does not meet their needs, they need to be asked to declare that in detail. It clearly provides the test result evidence, but not in English. As above I'd be tempted to get a certified translation, that removes that excuse. Clearly as the date of the certificate of conformity predates Euro4 it's never going to say complies with Euro 4, unless you can get Porsche to write that somehow.
One other thing just to be certain, did test procedures change pre and post Euro 4. I don't know, but can see how some slippery sod of a lawyer might argue that if so, needs checking.
If they are still being difficult I guess options are a complaint to whatever ombudsman or equivalent deals with the shambles at Swansea, as far as Birmingham is concerned surely for you the next step is to go to some official arbitration service, just like parking offences, or a see you in court. Or just pay up, least favoured option obviously.
Beyond that I have nothing.
So no magic wand?They haven't really stated why they say the document does not meet their needs, they need to be asked to declare that in detail. It clearly provides the test result evidence, but not in English. As above I'd be tempted to get a certified translation, that removes that excuse. Clearly as the date of the certificate of conformity predates Euro4 it's never going to say complies with Euro 4, unless you can get Porsche to write that somehow.
One other thing just to be certain, did test procedures change pre and post Euro 4. I don't know, but can see how some slippery sod of a lawyer might argue that if so, needs checking.
If they are still being difficult I guess options are a complaint to whatever ombudsman or equivalent deals with the shambles at Swansea, as far as Birmingham is concerned surely for you the next step is to go to some official arbitration service, just like parking offences, or a see you in court. Or just pay up, least favoured option obviously.
Beyond that I have nothing.
Ok I think my next reply will state what I believe the EUR 4 requirements to be and that the doc supplied states my vehicle is below or inside these.
I'd be tempted to reply along the following lines:
Dear Sirs,
I drove into the zone with no intention to avoid any valid charges and in the belief that my car was Euro 4 compliant, as it is with the London ULEZ zone.
It would appear that you're not saying my car is non compliant with Euro 4, but that you're simply assuming it's non compliant due to it's age. Further, it seems that you feel it's up to me to prove compliance, rather than for you to prove non compliance.
I am willing to accept that burden, and so will endeavour to obtain the relevant proof of Euro 4 compliance. In the meantime I would like to further emphasise that it's not my intention to avoid any valid charges, and only wish to not be charged for something that I'm not liable for. As such, to confirm my genuine intentions, please find enclosed a cheque for £8.00 to cover the daily charge in the interim, which I trust will be refunded once I supply you with the relavant proof.
Yours faithfully,
ATM
Personally I feel that if their genuine intentions are not to fleece drivers for making a mistake then, instead of automatically issuing fines, they could just as easily send an invoice for the daily charge, with perhaps a couple of quid added for admin costs, and only issue a fine if that isn't paid within a given timescale.
Dear Sirs,
I drove into the zone with no intention to avoid any valid charges and in the belief that my car was Euro 4 compliant, as it is with the London ULEZ zone.
It would appear that you're not saying my car is non compliant with Euro 4, but that you're simply assuming it's non compliant due to it's age. Further, it seems that you feel it's up to me to prove compliance, rather than for you to prove non compliance.
I am willing to accept that burden, and so will endeavour to obtain the relevant proof of Euro 4 compliance. In the meantime I would like to further emphasise that it's not my intention to avoid any valid charges, and only wish to not be charged for something that I'm not liable for. As such, to confirm my genuine intentions, please find enclosed a cheque for £8.00 to cover the daily charge in the interim, which I trust will be refunded once I supply you with the relavant proof.
Yours faithfully,
ATM
Personally I feel that if their genuine intentions are not to fleece drivers for making a mistake then, instead of automatically issuing fines, they could just as easily send an invoice for the daily charge, with perhaps a couple of quid added for admin costs, and only issue a fine if that isn't paid within a given timescale.
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