Wide single 2 lane carriageways - overtaking

[sospan]

I use that A5 Chirk road sometimes. During the day at most times it tends to vary from very busy to moderate. Sometimes on stop, particularly at the busy roundabouts. Later evening and night it is pretty quiet. I do overtake if ok but not that often.
I am reluctant to overtake due to increased risk from other traffic behaviour. It is a higher risk if traffic coming towards you but normal risk if gaps, just need checking behind/in front for others trying to overtake as well. Poor mirror/signal or someone doing a multi vehicle overtake. Also getting a sixth sense on another vehicle about todo something. Traffic entering from side roads too.
It amazes me how some just dawdle while overtaking instead of getting the manoeuvre done quicker.
As for the suicide lanes. I lost a school mate on one years ago. The old road( pre M4) towards Morriston ( now the DVLA area). Clipped a lorry that pulled out. These days too many seem to have the attitude of “ get out of my way, I am coming through”. Over aggressive driving.

[Rubins4]

15 years ago I overtook an undercover copper on a road like this (Maresfield bypass, East Sussex, for those that know it).

He was in an Octavia VRS and I a EG4 Civic. He accelerated swiftly up to 60 (the limit) off a roundabout and kept right over to the centre line forcing any overtaker right out into oncoming traffic. Had I been quicker I probably would have overtaken him on the (admittedly) blind but very long approaching bend, but by the time I had sufficient momentum we were around the corner and I had a good view of the empty straight ahead. I gave it all the horses (not many) to get passed and pulled back in tight across his bumper over to the inside line as a show of disdain for his selfish road positioning; he seemed to begrudgingly acknowledge by pulling back across, before turning on the blue/twos.

This was a bit before every police car had cameras and he was on his own. I think I must have passed the attitude test because he gave me an earful but let me go without charge (I must have been speeding and was quite aggressive in the overtake). He said he was aghast that I might overtake on the blind bend (I probably would have if I could, certainly dozens of people do every day) and he also asked if I saw the the badger on the side of the road, which he claims was why he was out toward the centre of the road, I'm almost certain there was no badger. I'm glad he didn't see me giving him the thumbs up on the way past.

Probably a year later I found myself overtaking a lorry around one of those same bends only to find someone doing the just the same in the opposite direction. each line if probably just wide enough for two cars each if everybody is 'in formation'. I was in a loaner Corsa from the garage. I stood on the brakes, the fronts locked immediately and the the rear rotated so I was facing under the side of the lorry. I some how managed to gather it up and get back behind the lorry. I no longer overtake around the long, wide corners.

[M4cruiser]

mac96 said:

Relying on the skills of a random driver coming the other way, who may be drunk, vaping, talking to the kids in the back seat, very tired, on the phone, seems like madness to me.

^ ^ This, definitely this, and not just for overtaking, but for all driving. I say to my friends, why try to save a few seconds, because when it goes wrong you lose a week. Not worth it.

[donkmeister]

Rubins4 said:

15 years ago I overtook an undercover copper on a road like this (Maresfield bypass, East Sussex, for those that know it).

He was in an Octavia VRS and I a EG4 Civic. He accelerated swiftly up to 60 (the limit) off a roundabout and kept right over to the centre line forcing any overtaker right out into oncoming traffic. Had I been quicker I probably would have overtaken him on the (admittedly) blind but very long approaching bend, but by the time I had sufficient momentum we were around the corner and I had a good view of the empty straight ahead. I gave it all the horses (not many) to get passed and pulled back in tight across his bumper over to the inside line as a show of disdain for his selfish road positioning; he seemed to begrudgingly acknowledge by pulling back across, before turning on the blue/twos.

This was a bit before every police car had cameras and he was on his own. I think I must have passed the attitude test because he gave me an earful but let me go without charge (I must have been speeding and was quite aggressive in the overtake). He said he was aghast that I might overtake on the blind bend (I probably would have if I could, certainly dozens of people do every day) and he also asked if I saw the the badger on the side of the road, which he claims was why he was out toward the centre of the road, I'm almost certain there was no badger. I'm glad he didn't see me giving him the thumbs up on the way past.

Probably a year later I found myself overtaking a lorry around one of those same bends only to find someone doing the just the same in the opposite direction. each line if probably just wide enough for two cars each if everybody is 'in formation'. I was in a loaner Corsa from the garage. I stood on the brakes, the fronts locked immediately and the the rear rotated so I was facing under the side of the lorry. I some how managed to gather it up and get back behind the lorry. I no longer overtake around the long, wide corners.

Bit in bold says a lot... If the road is a single carriageway with one lane in either direction, then why would you be overtaking in the first place if it wasn't clear on the opposite side of the road? His road position should have made zero difference there as to whether or not you thought an overtake was on.

[KTMsm]

M4cruiser said:

mac96 said:

Relying on the skills of a random driver coming the other way, who may be drunk, vaping, talking to the kids in the back seat, very tired, on the phone, seems like madness to me.

^ ^ This, definitely this, and not just for overtaking, but for all driving. I say to my friends, why try to save a few seconds, because when it goes wrong you lose a week. Not worth it.

But you're doing that in everyday driving anyway relying on them not to hit you from behind, to look before they pull out of the junction etc

And it's not a few seconds, I regularly knock 10 to 20% off Waze / Maps journey times by regularly overtaking

[mac96]

KTMsm said:

M4cruiser said:

mac96 said:

Relying on the skills of a random driver coming the other way, who may be drunk, vaping, talking to the kids in the back seat, very tired, on the phone, seems like madness to me.

^ ^ This, definitely this, and not just for overtaking, but for all driving. I say to my friends, why try to save a few seconds, because when it goes wrong you lose a week. Not worth it.

But you're doing that in everyday driving anyway relying on them not to hit you from behind, to look before they pull out of the junction etc

And it's not a few seconds, I regularly knock 10 to 20% off Waze / Maps journey times by regularly overtaking

You are right that we have to some extent rely on other peoples' skills, but actually testing those skills is a bit unwise There is a difference between the scenarios. People tend to notice junctions, so that engages their attention. If they are behind you, they will be a least subconciously aware that you are a hazard and that you may slow down. And unlike high speed head ons, rear end shunts between cars are usually not life changing.

Much less chance of them noticing and reacting appropriately to an unexpected (to them) oncoming car closing at say 120 mph and just popping into view from behind a truck.

I was not suggesting never overtake,I do too, just not when you are relying on an oncoming driver to take some avoiding action, even if that is simply maintaining course.

[KTMsm]

mac96 said:

I was not suggesting never overtake,I do too, just not when you are relying on an oncoming driver to take some avoiding action, even if that is simply maintaining course.

Isn't that exactly the same as driving down a road with a car coming the other way ?

You're relying on someone not popping out from behind a truck to have a look

This thread was about the really wide roads where the traffic is keeping to the left and allowing a third lane down the middle - that's typically 20 plus feet wide -in those situations I can't see how you are less safe than on a standard NSL

However I do admit I'm in the minority, I very rarely see anyone else doing the same

[bigothunter]

KTMsm said:

mac96 said:

I was not suggesting never overtake,I do too, just not when you are relying on an oncoming driver to take some avoiding action, even if that is simply maintaining course.

Isn't that exactly the same as driving down a road with a car coming the other way ?

You're relying on someone not popping out from behind a truck to have a look

This thread was about the really wide roads where the traffic is keeping to the left and allowing a third lane down the middle - that's typically 20 plus feet wide -in those situations I can't see how you are less safe than on a standard NSL

However I do admit I'm in the minority, I very rarely see anyone else doing the same

You must be a speed maniac

[mac96]

KTMsm said:

mac96 said:

I was not suggesting never overtake,I do too, just not when you are relying on an oncoming driver to take some avoiding action, even if that is simply maintaining course.

Isn't that exactly the same as driving down a road with a car coming the other way ?

You're relying on someone not popping out from behind a truck to have a look

This thread was about the really wide roads where the traffic is keeping to the left and allowing a third lane down the middle - that's typically 20 plus feet wide -in those situations I can't see how you are less safe than on a standard NSL

However I do admit I'm in the minority, I very rarely see anyone else doing the same

I was thinking of the same types of road and the risk of creating three abreast situations. The car popping out to have a look is concentrating on his driving and ready to pop back (hopefully!) but the oncoming car bumbling along in a world of his own, not planning on overtaking anything, and looking no further ahead than is necessary to stay in his lane (or even worse, relying on some form of lane keeping assistance which is only 'looking' at lane markings) may well be very slow to react to anything, so why risk forcing him to react? On a narrower road, you would be back on your side of the road before he arrives so his lack of care doesn't matter.

Of course, every potential overtake is slightly different, so you may be doing nothing I wouldn't!

[RSTurboPaul]

I was once told 'never be the meat in the sandwich' so tend to avoid overtaking on this sort of road unless the other side has a gap in oncoming traffic.

[donkmeister]

KTMsm said:

This thread was about the really wide roads where the traffic is keeping to the left and allowing a third lane down the middle - that's typically 20 plus feet wide -in those situations I can't see how you are less safe than on a standard NSL

However I do admit I'm in the minority, I very rarely see anyone else doing the same

The issues would become very noticeable if everyone woke up tomorrow deciding to recreate the suicide lane...

The reason it's less safe than a standard NSL SC is that it's unexpected behaviour. Suicide lanes are no longer commonplace, and the corresponding markings were lost several surfaces ago. If you think they should return, start a campaign or petition the highways people to build in a third lane next time they repaint. Pretending there are three lanes is equivalent to doing 60 through a busy village that has long been a 20 or 30; the pedestrians aren't expecting you to be going so fast and whilst most will see you and think "no way am I crossing until he has past me", occasionally someone won't.

[KTMsm]

donkmeister said:

The issues would become very noticeable if everyone woke up tomorrow deciding to recreate the suicide lane...

The reason it's less safe than a standard NSL SC is that it's unexpected behaviour. Suicide lanes are no longer commonplace, and the corresponding markings were lost several surfaces ago. If you think they should return, start a campaign or petition the highways people to build in a third lane next time they repaint. Pretending there are three lanes is equivalent to doing 60 through a busy village that has long been a 20 or 30; the pedestrians aren't expecting you to be going so fast and whilst most will see you and think "no way am I crossing until he has past me", occasionally someone won't.

That's really not the case - all the traffic keeps to the left

[OutInTheShed]

There used to be such a road on my commute.
A bit uphill.
The traffic making progress the other way would generally be happy to let people overtake slow stuff.

Where people are making fair progress both ways, it's not often you can overtake without breaking the 60 limit.
But if you're going to do it, it's best done as swiftly as possible.

The road in question now has a lot more white paint and you can't (legally) overtake any more, except on a bike.
So you get long queues behind tractors etc.

[donkmeister]

KTMsm said:

donkmeister said:

The issues would become very noticeable if everyone woke up tomorrow deciding to recreate the suicide lane...

The reason it's less safe than a standard NSL SC is that it's unexpected behaviour. Suicide lanes are no longer commonplace, and the corresponding markings were lost several surfaces ago. If you think they should return, start a campaign or petition the highways people to build in a third lane next time they repaint. Pretending there are three lanes is equivalent to doing 60 through a busy village that has long been a 20 or 30; the pedestrians aren't expecting you to be going so fast and whilst most will see you and think "no way am I crossing until he has past me", occasionally someone won't.

That's really not the case - all the traffic keeps to the left

Hmmm... in my experience people drive down the centre of their lane until some dhead decides to invent an imaginary suicide lane. At that point some people on both sides will veer left to reduce the odds of said dhead causing a crash, some will stay the course, and a couple of times I have seen them encounter another dhead who veers right to try and block the manoeuvre.

Nothing wrong with overtaking on such roads, I take umbrage with having some driving head on at me and forcing me to take evasive action though.

[KTMsm]

donkmeister said:

Hmmm... in my experience people drive down the centre of their lane until some dhead decides to invent an imaginary suicide lane. At that point some people on both sides will veer left to reduce the odds of said dhead causing a crash, some will stay the course, and a couple of times I have seen them encounter another dhead who veers right to try and block the manoeuvre.

Nothing wrong with overtaking on such roads, I take umbrage with having some driving head on at me and forcing me to take evasive action though.

Then your experience is very different to mine - and the picture in the first post

I regularly travel down the A46 most traffic is even further spaced to the left than in the first picture leaving a clear wide lane down the middle

No one would condone driving head on towards cars hoping they'll move

[KTMsm]

I just had a quick look on street view on the A46




White car is overtaking silver suv

Lorry coming the other way is far over to the left as is the car being overtaken, very typical for the road

[bigothunter]

Raises the old question of whether single carriageway roads should have median barriers to prevent overtaking. Relief provided when the road in widened enough for two lanes in one direction. Head-on collisions are virtually eliminated. Safety is definitely improved.

Getting more popular in Europe and worldwide.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/10696288...

[OutInTheShed]

It's a 'car driver thing' to see the whole of one side of the road as 'your lane'.

If people can't overtake without an explicit overtaking lane, then don't moan when you're stuck behind a moped or a jcb for 15 miles.

I have a theory that road users are getting worse at being aware of anything coming up behind them. This isn't just car drivers, but also cyclists and walkers. Walkers on shared paths step sideways without a glance back to look for bikes or runners or whatever, you can follow some cyclists for a long way and they never look back. Hire scooter users may be the worst?

Mind how you go when overtaking these people, I think they behave the same in their cars.


Last century, I think everyone would have agreed overtaking was normal on a wide two lane road. To be fair, there more outstandingly slow vehicles back then, tractors and jcbs were slower, many lorries were slow up hills?
Most of us started out on mopeds, then 100cc bikes, so we learned all about being overtaken!
But now, driving 'culture' seems to regard overtaking as abnormal, people who are in no hurry never think to let anyone past.

It was of course entirely normal to disregard speed limits in the interests of a swift, safe overtake. Back in the days when there was some point to having a powerful car.

I expect the roads in question are on a list for more white paint and/or a 50 or 40 limit, so the question will mostly become academic.

On two lane roads in Greece, I've seen vans and lorries drive with wheels in the dirt to let people overtake.

[KTMsm]

OutInTheShed said:

Last century, I think everyone would have agreed overtaking was normal on a wide two lane road.

But now, driving 'culture' seems to regard overtaking as abnormal, people who are in no hurry never think to let anyone past.

It was of course entirely normal to disregard speed limits in the interests of a swift, safe overtake

I did my motorcycle IAM on a 1000cc bike

The instructor asked me to demonstrate overtaking and I asked if I had to keep to the speed limit, he said yes

We went up the Fosse, I didn't overtake anything, he stopped to ask why and I said because the traffic was doing 50 and I didn't think 10 mph difference was adequate to safely overtake in the spaces I had seen

He then agreed to a max 30 over during the overtake. I went out and overtook loads

The Police Instructors on bikesafe gave similar instructions - it's stupid to increase your time exposed to danger

It's so annoying when no one will admit that how we actually ride / how is best to ride is not what is legal to do and what a Police Officer will (probably) allow you to do but a camera will not

[donkmeister]

KTMsm said:

I did my motorcycle IAM on a 1000cc bike

The instructor asked me to demonstrate overtaking and I asked if I had to keep to the speed limit, he said yes

We went up the Fosse, I didn't overtake anything, he stopped to ask why and I said because the traffic was doing 50 and I didn't think 10 mph difference was adequate to safely overtake in the spaces I had seen

He then agreed to a max 30 over during the overtake. I went out and overtook loads

The Police Instructors on bikesafe gave similar instructions - it's stupid to increase your time exposed to danger

It's so annoying when no one will admit that how we actually ride / how is best to ride is not what is legal to do and what a Police Officer will (probably) allow you to do but a camera will not

That's literally the opposite situation to a car on a wide two lane SC overtaking alongside an oncoming car though... your IAM/Fosse anecdote is about minimising the time spent in the path of oncoming traffic in order to minimise risk, which is something I absolutely definitely agree with you on. I'd even suggest that you can safely overtake cars on a wide 2-lane on a bike when you can do it safely between the car and the centre line... however I don't see wide 2-lane roads wide enough to do that with cars.