Chris Kaba Shooting
Discussion
flatlandsman said:
Hugely similar to the Tottenham incident, the media gather round the families and victimise the police, when the person involved is usually a rogue anyway.
the family are playing the race card when this guy had form, had been in a young offender prison for 4 years for possession of a fake gun and was known to be trying to go after someone over a shooting at Tower Hamlets.
He refused to get out of the car, (a Q8 lol, not at all gangy that is it)., drove at a police car and men to ram it, and was shot.
No loss whatsoever in my eyes sorry. In fact we have rid the country of a rogue. Yes it is sad, but imagine what this poor sod has had to deal with aswell, his life can hardly be worth living now, especially now he has been bloody named.
the big issue obviously is that no weapon was found in the car or on the victim, (the vehicle was linked to firearms however) hence the charge as he was shot in the head, I would imagine vol manslaughter as he did not set out that day or whatever to kill this man, but he should not have fired his weapon, and that will nail him.
It doesn't matter if there was a weapon found or not and also owing to the fact Kaba was driving a vehicle it's pretty difficult to pick another area to shoot when the target is surrounded by bits of vehicle. the family are playing the race card when this guy had form, had been in a young offender prison for 4 years for possession of a fake gun and was known to be trying to go after someone over a shooting at Tower Hamlets.
He refused to get out of the car, (a Q8 lol, not at all gangy that is it)., drove at a police car and men to ram it, and was shot.
No loss whatsoever in my eyes sorry. In fact we have rid the country of a rogue. Yes it is sad, but imagine what this poor sod has had to deal with aswell, his life can hardly be worth living now, especially now he has been bloody named.
the big issue obviously is that no weapon was found in the car or on the victim, (the vehicle was linked to firearms however) hence the charge as he was shot in the head, I would imagine vol manslaughter as he did not set out that day or whatever to kill this man, but he should not have fired his weapon, and that will nail him.
Edited by flatlandsman on Saturday 9th March 09:55
It's all down to an honestly held belief by the officer at the time, not what a lack of weapon or a head shot mean after the incident.
spaximus said:
The problem is the make up of the jury and how good the prosecution barrister is.
Even if the jury knows that Kaba would have been charged and found most probably guilty of murder a good barrister will say so what!
A reasonable jury would say based on the intelligence the office had reasonable belief his life was in danger, but as I said that depends on the make up and place of the jury. Hold it in the home counties against London and beliefs will be differrent.
I just hope he is getting the very best legal team money can buy and they are allowed to defend fully. I would hope he will be acquitted but who knows.
This raised an interesting point. You should expect to be tried by a jury of your peers, but is that your peers or the victim's peers? Even if the jury knows that Kaba would have been charged and found most probably guilty of murder a good barrister will say so what!
A reasonable jury would say based on the intelligence the office had reasonable belief his life was in danger, but as I said that depends on the make up and place of the jury. Hold it in the home counties against London and beliefs will be differrent.
I just hope he is getting the very best legal team money can buy and they are allowed to defend fully. I would hope he will be acquitted but who knows.
However, this all sounds a bit American where they get to hand pick the jury. Ultimately I would hope a cross section of UK society would hold the same values irrespective of location (though let's face it: ethnicity is really what's being talked about here. My view still stands.)
On the second point regarding what a reasonable jury will do when presented with the intelligence - intelligence of firearms links alone does not justify someone's death in my opinion, so is a red herring (as are any gang links etc).
As we don't have the evidence surrounding the event itself here, we also can't say what a reasonable jury will conclude about the threat assessment, which is ultimately the only factor that can make this death lawful. Firearms links would probably be a factor in that assessment (ie reaching down for a gun, carrying something long in a bag) but alone they would struggle to prove threat to life imo.
What we do know is the CPS feel there is reasonable prospects of a conviction (else they would not have prosecuted in my understanding of things - though perhaps a public interest test kicked in? Who knows)
Firearms police do a tough job, but I think it hasty for people to pre judge there wasn't any fault of the police officer here. They are human, and do make mistakes.
Ultimately this is what the jury will determine, after they are presented with evidence from both prosecution and defence.
Ian
I suppose it all depends on what was reasonable circumstances at the time. Was there a threat to life and no other to avoid opening fire? Was a warning given, was it reasonable to give one, if not why. Would it increase the chance of injury or death.
Was the car nudged into an empty police car at 2 mph or rammed at 40 mph into the side where a police officer was just about to get out?
I don't think any of that detail has been made public, but I'd say it will hinge on a car ramming/coming togther and how that is viewed by the jury.
Was the car nudged into an empty police car at 2 mph or rammed at 40 mph into the side where a police officer was just about to get out?
I don't think any of that detail has been made public, but I'd say it will hinge on a car ramming/coming togther and how that is viewed by the jury.
Edited by borcy on Saturday 9th March 20:31
The Gauge said:
Who's predicting disorder in the streets if he is (hopefully) found not guilty, similar to the Duggan situation?
All the more reason that body/car cam footage should be publicised where possible.Yes, some people will always cry that it was a racism even when the facts and video show otherwise. But, it hugely reduces the numbers attending any
SlimJim16v said:
There was an ex FAO on the news earlier who had lawfully shot and killed someone. He still has protection and frequently has the police out. He retired in 2008.
donkmeister said:
The Gauge said:
Who's predicting disorder in the streets if he is (hopefully) found not guilty, similar to the Duggan situation?
All the more reason that body/car cam footage should be publicised where possible.Yes, some people will always cry that it was a racism even when the facts and video show otherwise. But, it hugely reduces the numbers attending any
donkmeister said:
All the more reason that body/car cam footage should be publicised where possible.
Yes, some people will always cry that it was a racism even when the facts and video show otherwise. But, it hugely reduces the numbers attending anymass looting and vandalism sprees protests as well as identifying who is a moron who cannot interpret simple facts.
I’d like to know why Kabas family were shown the BWV soon after the event. At that stage the officer had not been charged and was merely under investigation (as you would expect)Yes, some people will always cry that it was a racism even when the facts and video show otherwise. But, it hugely reduces the numbers attending any
Surely that footage should only have been used at trial or internal conduct hearings?
Roman Moroni said:
SlimJim16v said:
There was an ex FAO on the news earlier who had lawfully shot and killed someone. He still has protection and frequently has the police out. He retired in 2008.
XCP said:
Don't forget that the CPS lower the evidential threshold when the defendant is a police officer as was mentioned months ago in this case. It's a show trial I suspect.
It’s CPS passing the buck to the Courts, happened many times before Charging is their get out of jail free card and absolves them of any criticism whether convicted/acquitted
Same happens with the IOPC
The Gauge said:
Who's predicting disorder in the streets if he is (hopefully) found not guilty, similar to the Duggan situation?
Not convinced at all that there will be Duggan and his extended family were heavily involved in the gang culture in Tottenham and linked heavily into many of the local “community leaders” (read activist/agitators)
He was shot on his home turf probably less than a mile from the family home which happens to be almost directly across the road from Tottenham Police stn where the protest started
Tottenham has always been quite challenging and volatile to Police
I’m not aware of Kaba’s family having such links
Earthdweller said:
XCP said:
Don't forget that the CPS lower the evidential threshold when the defendant is a police officer as was mentioned months ago in this case. It's a show trial I suspect.
It’s CPS passing the buck to the Courts, happened many times before Charging is their get out of jail free card and absolves them of any criticism whether convicted/acquitted
Same happens with the IOPC
LimmerickLad said:
Earthdweller said:
XCP said:
Don't forget that the CPS lower the evidential threshold when the defendant is a police officer as was mentioned months ago in this case. It's a show trial I suspect.
It’s CPS passing the buck to the Courts, happened many times before Charging is their get out of jail free card and absolves them of any criticism whether convicted/acquitted
Same happens with the IOPC
borcy said:
LimmerickLad said:
Earthdweller said:
XCP said:
Don't forget that the CPS lower the evidential threshold when the defendant is a police officer as was mentioned months ago in this case. It's a show trial I suspect.
It’s CPS passing the buck to the Courts, happened many times before Charging is their get out of jail free card and absolves them of any criticism whether convicted/acquitted
Same happens with the IOPC
LimmerickLad said:
If this is the case then why on earth any police office would volunteer to be a FAO is beyond me .
I’m led to believe that you could count the number of applicants for the ARV role on the last internal recruitment drive on the fingers of one hand .. it used to be a very popular and desirable posting There is already a shortfall in numbers with vacant posts running into three figures
They are struggling to both retain and recruit already
I also believe they have opened up the applications for officers that are still in their probationary period (less than 2 years service)
Edited by Earthdweller on Sunday 10th March 10:40
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