Boat charter cancelled - refund not forthcoming
Discussion
If going to court, remember to also claim for your expenses in pursuing the claim. Keep a record of all time and money involved.
Not sure of the legal position if they wind the company up as presumably it is that company you are taking action against. Hopefully Trading Standards have advised on that.
Not sure of the legal position if they wind the company up as presumably it is that company you are taking action against. Hopefully Trading Standards have advised on that.
Ganglandboss said:
Thanks for the replies.
A few have advised cutting our losses at £900, and that is what I would probably do. My difficulty is it is not just our money, but eight other people. We collected their money and handed it over to these crooks, so we need to show we are fighting to get it returned.
Most have accepted it, but one of the newer club members seems to be avoiding us.
We sent them a letter before action and she responded, saying she has told her accountant to issue a refund. We have challenged the amount, but has told us she will not negotiate, and the money would be paid by the 29th September. This has not happened. The deadline date on our letter before action is this coming Tuesday, so it is looking like we will be taking her to court.
I have emailed my concerns about their qualifications and SCV coding to the MCA.
I have also reported her to Gwynedd Trading Standards. To do this, you have to go through Citizens Advice; they were pretty helpful.
I have also got some insider information from PADI. There is a lot of positive media about how she was the youngest person to become a PADI Course Director (this is their most senior instructor rating). It seems she has had a big falling out with them over service delivery, and I note all their branding has been removed from her website, premises and van. She is showing as a PADI dive centre on the PADI website, and I notice she is still offering PADI instructor training. I emailed PADI about this and they have confirmed there is an ongoing investigation into quality management at both her business and her wife's business.
I have also spoken to one of the group I said had booked with them on her wedding day. She is refusing to refund them and instead offering credit against another booking. It seems that amongst that group was the chairman of BSAC, so I am hoping he might be able to provide some support.
I had a look at the information from Companies House a while back. They do not have much in the way of tangible assets, or cash in hand or at bank.
I have just checked again, and it seems she has a second directorship. The one we are dealing with has her and her mother as the only directors. The second is with her wife, and was only incorporated two days ago. I am wondering if she is gearing up to transfer the assets to this new firm and wind the other one up.
Wouldn't surprise me. That's why your best option is to get the £900 and run... if it's an option. There's f'all point in taking someone to court if they don't have the means to pay and it looks like this is the sort of situation you're facing. Turning down the £900 or not doing everything you can to ensure it is paid will likely mean you get nothing at all and have to pay out for court costs. A few have advised cutting our losses at £900, and that is what I would probably do. My difficulty is it is not just our money, but eight other people. We collected their money and handed it over to these crooks, so we need to show we are fighting to get it returned.
Most have accepted it, but one of the newer club members seems to be avoiding us.
We sent them a letter before action and she responded, saying she has told her accountant to issue a refund. We have challenged the amount, but has told us she will not negotiate, and the money would be paid by the 29th September. This has not happened. The deadline date on our letter before action is this coming Tuesday, so it is looking like we will be taking her to court.
I have emailed my concerns about their qualifications and SCV coding to the MCA.
I have also reported her to Gwynedd Trading Standards. To do this, you have to go through Citizens Advice; they were pretty helpful.
I have also got some insider information from PADI. There is a lot of positive media about how she was the youngest person to become a PADI Course Director (this is their most senior instructor rating). It seems she has had a big falling out with them over service delivery, and I note all their branding has been removed from her website, premises and van. She is showing as a PADI dive centre on the PADI website, and I notice she is still offering PADI instructor training. I emailed PADI about this and they have confirmed there is an ongoing investigation into quality management at both her business and her wife's business.
I have also spoken to one of the group I said had booked with them on her wedding day. She is refusing to refund them and instead offering credit against another booking. It seems that amongst that group was the chairman of BSAC, so I am hoping he might be able to provide some support.
I had a look at the information from Companies House a while back. They do not have much in the way of tangible assets, or cash in hand or at bank.
I have just checked again, and it seems she has a second directorship. The one we are dealing with has her and her mother as the only directors. The second is with her wife, and was only incorporated two days ago. I am wondering if she is gearing up to transfer the assets to this new firm and wind the other one up.
Simpo Two said:
CraigyMc said:
If you paid by credit card provider, take it up with them.
I think we can assume not, because he's been asked that three times to no avail.OP is entirely at the mercy of the company and beating around in irrelevant bushes. Trading Standards won't get him his money back so it's court and then - if they owe over £1K (I think that's the minimum amount) - escalate to High Court to get paid.
Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 1st October 21:01
I am not expecting Trading Standards, or anybody, to get our money back. I am fully aware court is our only option now. I am confident we will get a judgement in our favour, but I suspect the company will go under before we get anything.
My priorities are being able to show the rest of the group we have done everything we can to get a refund, and try to stop her doing the same to others.
Matt_E_Mulsion said:
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Take the money, leave reviews and move on.
I'll correct that:Take the money, leave reviews, sink the boat and move on.
TGCOTF-dewey said:
There must be a couple of Tech divers in the club.
Leverage their all black kit and D-Rings, do a night dive, and block every intake port on the hull.
I've got loads of black kit and D-rings, and a rebreather. Leverage their all black kit and D-Rings, do a night dive, and block every intake port on the hull.
As others have said, take the £900.00 if possible, as it certainly will not be worth the hassle chasing the full amount through the courts. If there is one of your group not in agreement with this then let them chase the balance themselves, and they will soon give up I can assure you.
Your issue as you have showed is the company has no real assets, so the closing & reopening under a new company name carries little risk for them, at which point your losses are the full amount. This may be their play anyway and are just buying time.
You have limited options;
1. Wait, and hope the £900.00 comes through
2. Start winding up proceedings against the company. This is not cheap and unless they have taken a significant amount of dividends through the company which would be seen at insolvency as a overdrawn directors loan account would not really carry much of a threat to them to be fair
3. Start small claims proceedings through moneyclaim, etc. The issue with this being that it could be dragged out for months and ultimately if they say they don't have the monies to pay you could offer a monthly payment of such a nominal amount its a joke. You could go this route for the larger amount, plus interest and fees, and it you are successful then appoint agents to collect the full amount.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money then you aren't getting it. If it were me, and it were at all possible, then instead of writing/emailing, go visit them in person asking what the issue is and get it sorted there and then. They may just have cashflow issues and may do a deal at the larger amount but over say 4 months instead of all in one go, which appeases all your group I suspect.
Hope it works out for you, and thankfully its only a small amount.
Your issue as you have showed is the company has no real assets, so the closing & reopening under a new company name carries little risk for them, at which point your losses are the full amount. This may be their play anyway and are just buying time.
You have limited options;
1. Wait, and hope the £900.00 comes through
2. Start winding up proceedings against the company. This is not cheap and unless they have taken a significant amount of dividends through the company which would be seen at insolvency as a overdrawn directors loan account would not really carry much of a threat to them to be fair
3. Start small claims proceedings through moneyclaim, etc. The issue with this being that it could be dragged out for months and ultimately if they say they don't have the monies to pay you could offer a monthly payment of such a nominal amount its a joke. You could go this route for the larger amount, plus interest and fees, and it you are successful then appoint agents to collect the full amount.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money then you aren't getting it. If it were me, and it were at all possible, then instead of writing/emailing, go visit them in person asking what the issue is and get it sorted there and then. They may just have cashflow issues and may do a deal at the larger amount but over say 4 months instead of all in one go, which appeases all your group I suspect.
Hope it works out for you, and thankfully its only a small amount.
Just to add... looking at the company itself (creditsafe/companies house, etc) as it's not hard to know who they are (DD Ltd per chance), they appear to up to only last week be advertising for new staff on social media, so maybe things are not terminal and it is simply a cashflow issue.
There is nothing else adverse about them reported from what I can find, so hopefully the newly formed company (which consists of one of the directors and a new director) is nothing but coincedence.
Another thought would be to contact their accountant and see what they say, that being Woods & Cooper 0151 4228049. They won't tell you much, but will certainly be ringing there client when you mention legal action which may provoke a reaction.
There is nothing else adverse about them reported from what I can find, so hopefully the newly formed company (which consists of one of the directors and a new director) is nothing but coincedence.
Another thought would be to contact their accountant and see what they say, that being Woods & Cooper 0151 4228049. They won't tell you much, but will certainly be ringing there client when you mention legal action which may provoke a reaction.
Cancellation policy seems quite clear, and is dated 2022 (so assume would have been in place at time of your booking, ie not changed since);
Cancellations
1. If a customer cancels a booking more than 6 weeks in advance of a booking date they shall be liable for the non-refundable deposit and no refund will be made of this amount. If a customer cancels a booking within 6 weeks of the booking date, no refund of the booking cost will be offered and the customer shall be liable for the total amount of the booking.
2. The cancellation terms above reflect the non-refundable costs incurred by [company name] in respect of any V1 18.07.22 bookings made with them.
3. If [company name] is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. [company name] liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer.
4. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“Regulations”) set out cancellation rights during a 14 day “cooling off” period that apply to Consumers for certain bookings made “off premises”. These cancellation rights do not apply to bookings for leisure
activities on specified dates and therefore do not apply to any bookings made with [company name].
5. If, due to exceptional circumstances including, but not limited to, illness, accidents and bereavement, a customer has to cancel a booking [company name] will consider the circumstances and in their discretion decide whether to waive the cancellation terms set out in this section.
Cancellations
1. If a customer cancels a booking more than 6 weeks in advance of a booking date they shall be liable for the non-refundable deposit and no refund will be made of this amount. If a customer cancels a booking within 6 weeks of the booking date, no refund of the booking cost will be offered and the customer shall be liable for the total amount of the booking.
2. The cancellation terms above reflect the non-refundable costs incurred by [company name] in respect of any V1 18.07.22 bookings made with them.
3. If [company name] is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. [company name] liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer.
4. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“Regulations”) set out cancellation rights during a 14 day “cooling off” period that apply to Consumers for certain bookings made “off premises”. These cancellation rights do not apply to bookings for leisure
activities on specified dates and therefore do not apply to any bookings made with [company name].
5. If, due to exceptional circumstances including, but not limited to, illness, accidents and bereavement, a customer has to cancel a booking [company name] will consider the circumstances and in their discretion decide whether to waive the cancellation terms set out in this section.
Matt_E_Mulsion said:
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Take the money, leave reviews and move on.
I'll correct that:Take the money, leave reviews, sink the boat and move on.
How useful are the police with boats thefts, I like the idea of just taking it.
Hobo said:
Just to add... looking at the company itself (creditsafe/companies house, etc) as it's not hard to know who they are (DD Ltd per chance), they appear to up to only last week be advertising for new staff on social media, so maybe things are not terminal and it is simply a cashflow issue.
There is nothing else adverse about them reported from what I can find, so hopefully the newly formed company (which consists of one of the directors and a new director) is nothing but coincedence.
Another thought would be to contact their accountant and see what they say, that being Woods & Cooper 0151 4228049. They won't tell you much, but will certainly be ringing there client when you mention legal action which may provoke a reaction.
I will try not to break the PH naming and shaming rules, and tell you whether or not you are correct, but I can tell you that the T's & C's in your second post are identical to theirs. And they have been advertising the same positions on social media.There is nothing else adverse about them reported from what I can find, so hopefully the newly formed company (which consists of one of the directors and a new director) is nothing but coincedence.
Another thought would be to contact their accountant and see what they say, that being Woods & Cooper 0151 4228049. They won't tell you much, but will certainly be ringing there client when you mention legal action which may provoke a reaction.
"3. If [company name] is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. [company name] liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."
BSAC's Chairman (who they have also ripped off recently) says this falls foul of the Consumer Rights Act. He is a business auditor by profession. In any case, we cannot agree an alternative booking date.
I like the idea of contacting their accountants.
Hobo said:
Ganglandboss said:
I like the idea of contacting their accountants.
The companies registered address is the accountants, so any legal paperwork would be issued to them which they wouldn't like, hence me saying give them a call and see what happens.She said she would look into it and call back.
email 18th September said:
Subject: Re: Refund for Pwllheli whole boat booking - Sat 2nd of Sept and Sun 3rd of Sept
Hi Clemmie, the refund has been sent to be processed by the accountant at the end of the month - this is the reason that you were sent a remittance notice a few days after you were here.
Regards,
Clare
Hi Clemmie, the refund has been sent to be processed by the accountant at the end of the month - this is the reason that you were sent a remittance notice a few days after you were here.
Regards,
Clare
email 21st September said:
Subject: Re: Refund for Pwllheli whole boat booking - Sat 2nd of Sept and Sun 3rd of Sept
Good morning Clemmie,
Being the skipper on the day, my suggestion was that we did not take the vessel out despite me getting it operation on the first day. I stated that we would take the vessel out and undergo checks to ensure that it was fit for the following day - which is was. I gave you the option to either await for us to confirm this in the evening or cancel - which you chose to cancel.
The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
Regards,
Clare
Good morning Clemmie,
Being the skipper on the day, my suggestion was that we did not take the vessel out despite me getting it operation on the first day. I stated that we would take the vessel out and undergo checks to ensure that it was fit for the following day - which is was. I gave you the option to either await for us to confirm this in the evening or cancel - which you chose to cancel.
The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
Regards,
Clare
If you don't hear back from the accountants by tomorrow lunchtime then call them again and start to pester them. You have it in writing from the company that they have instructed the accountant to issue the refunds (which seems odd, as can't imagine the accountant actually doing that), but you can go down that route for now as they will get royalled p!ssed off and speak with their client I suspect quickly to get the matter resolved as certainly won't want to be caught in the middle of it.
BertBert said:
The accountants will not call back and if they do by some chance it will be to tell you to talk to their customer as the have no remit to deal with you.
I would tend to agree, but on the basis their client has put it in writing to the OP that they have asked the accountant to transfer the monies back then there is certainly questions to ask and answers to be recieved.If the accountant confirms no such request has been made by the company then that should be confirmed back to the company in writing and used in any legal challenge then made, as it’s clear at that point they don’t intend paying the monies back so the OP may as well go money claim online if they don’t want to lose much money if the company shuts, or winding up petition if they don’t care about the monies and want to cause hassle.
Hobo said:
I would tend to agree, but on the basis their client has put it in writing to the OP that they have asked the accountant to transfer the monies back then there is certainly questions to ask and answers to be recieved.
If the accountant confirms no such request has been made by the company then that should be confirmed back to the company in writing and used in any legal challenge then made, as it’s clear at that point they don’t intend paying the monies back so the OP may as well go money claim online if they don’t want to lose much money if the company shuts, or winding up petition if they don’t care about the monies and want to cause hassle.
I would be astonished if the accounting company gave any info away at all. If my third party accountant did any such thing they would be fired (says well-built company director type).If the accountant confirms no such request has been made by the company then that should be confirmed back to the company in writing and used in any legal challenge then made, as it’s clear at that point they don’t intend paying the monies back so the OP may as well go money claim online if they don’t want to lose much money if the company shuts, or winding up petition if they don’t care about the monies and want to cause hassle.
Today is the deadline day of our letter before action.
I had a message last night from the guy from the other group that had a booking cancelled, after I told him what I found out about the new company. He told me he had been advised to contact Companies House and advise them they owe money and can't strike off. I gave CH a call today and they were very helpful. They cannot do anything at this stage, but it seems we have a two month window to raise an objection if they try to have the current company stuck off, so I have subscribed to updates on this and the new company.
We are just looking through the court application process. As it stands, we are seeking return of the booking cost, accommodation, interest, court fees, and mileage for travel to and from the marina via the bunkhouse.
With the booking cost and accommodation, they are single transactions from my OH's bank account, but mileage was paid individually by a number of claimants.
There are options on the online form for 'myself or my organisation', 'more than person or organisation', and the final one is for a solicitor acting on the behalf of a client.
I assume I am right in saying we cannot choose the first option because of the multiple mileage claims, but could if we only claimed the booking costs and accommodation, as these were paid by a single person?
The website says we have to submit a paper form if it is an application for more than one person. This in itself is not a problem, but would that mean everybody listed would have to attend court?
a group application is also difficult because one of the group does not want any involvement. It seems she is moving house, and has had problems with a thug of a property developer who has bought the house next door to her current address, so she does not want further stress. We could not therefore list her on the application, although I suppose we might be able to just omit her and not be able to claim her mileage?
Would it be an option to apply as an organisation (i.e. the club), so we could include members' costs, but not have to list them individually as joint claimants?
Thanks!
I had a message last night from the guy from the other group that had a booking cancelled, after I told him what I found out about the new company. He told me he had been advised to contact Companies House and advise them they owe money and can't strike off. I gave CH a call today and they were very helpful. They cannot do anything at this stage, but it seems we have a two month window to raise an objection if they try to have the current company stuck off, so I have subscribed to updates on this and the new company.
We are just looking through the court application process. As it stands, we are seeking return of the booking cost, accommodation, interest, court fees, and mileage for travel to and from the marina via the bunkhouse.
With the booking cost and accommodation, they are single transactions from my OH's bank account, but mileage was paid individually by a number of claimants.
There are options on the online form for 'myself or my organisation', 'more than person or organisation', and the final one is for a solicitor acting on the behalf of a client.
I assume I am right in saying we cannot choose the first option because of the multiple mileage claims, but could if we only claimed the booking costs and accommodation, as these were paid by a single person?
The website says we have to submit a paper form if it is an application for more than one person. This in itself is not a problem, but would that mean everybody listed would have to attend court?
a group application is also difficult because one of the group does not want any involvement. It seems she is moving house, and has had problems with a thug of a property developer who has bought the house next door to her current address, so she does not want further stress. We could not therefore list her on the application, although I suppose we might be able to just omit her and not be able to claim her mileage?
Would it be an option to apply as an organisation (i.e. the club), so we could include members' costs, but not have to list them individually as joint claimants?
Thanks!
Sorry I haven't read everything but a few years back a company owed me money and applied for voluntary strike off. I sent an email to the director pointing out the following:
8. Offences and penalties
It’s an offence:
to apply when the company is ineligible for striking-off
to provide false or misleading information in, or in support of, an application
not to copy the application to all relevant parties within 7 days
not to withdraw application if the company becomes ineligible
The offences attract a potentially unlimited fine on summary conviction (before a magistrates’ court or Sheriff Court) or an unlimited fine on indictment (before a jury).
letting him know he may have committed criminal offence. I don't know if I was correct about this but he paid up immediately. I believe if a company has debtors it is ineligible for striking-off.
8. Offences and penalties
It’s an offence:
to apply when the company is ineligible for striking-off
to provide false or misleading information in, or in support of, an application
not to copy the application to all relevant parties within 7 days
not to withdraw application if the company becomes ineligible
The offences attract a potentially unlimited fine on summary conviction (before a magistrates’ court or Sheriff Court) or an unlimited fine on indictment (before a jury).
letting him know he may have committed criminal offence. I don't know if I was correct about this but he paid up immediately. I believe if a company has debtors it is ineligible for striking-off.
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