Boat charter cancelled - refund not forthcoming

Boat charter cancelled - refund not forthcoming

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Hobo

5,764 posts

247 months

Wednesday 4th October 2023
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Ganglandboss said:
Today is the deadline day of our letter before action.

I had a message last night from the guy from the other group that had a booking cancelled, after I told him what I found out about the new company. He told me he had been advised to contact Companies House and advise them they owe money and can't strike off. I gave CH a call today and they were very helpful. They cannot do anything at this stage, but it seems we have a two month window to raise an objection if they try to have the current company stuck off, so I have subscribed to updates on this and the new company.

We are just looking through the court application process. As it stands, we are seeking return of the booking cost, accommodation, interest, court fees, and mileage for travel to and from the marina via the bunkhouse.

With the booking cost and accommodation, they are single transactions from my OH's bank account, but mileage was paid individually by a number of claimants.

There are options on the online form for 'myself or my organisation', 'more than person or organisation', and the final one is for a solicitor acting on the behalf of a client.

I assume I am right in saying we cannot choose the first option because of the multiple mileage claims, but could if we only claimed the booking costs and accommodation, as these were paid by a single person?

The website says we have to submit a paper form if it is an application for more than one person. This in itself is not a problem, but would that mean everybody listed would have to attend court?

a group application is also difficult because one of the group does not want any involvement. It seems she is moving house, and has had problems with a thug of a property developer who has bought the house next door to her current address, so she does not want further stress. We could not therefore list her on the application, although I suppose we might be able to just omit her and not be able to claim her mileage?

Would it be an option to apply as an organisation (i.e. the club), so we could include members' costs, but not have to list them individually as joint claimants?

Thanks!
Who made the booking and paid the monies. One person, multiple people or a club ?

If you for example collected the monies from all the people and then booked it yourself then you would just claim as an individual. If you all paid individually you would each have to start the process individually, and finally it you are a formal entity (ie club) then you claim as an organisation.

Re court, I don't think there will be a need for attending to be honest so wouldn't be concerned with that. Its mostly done over the phone these days, include mediation before any court hearing. It's a painful process which is dragged out for an eternity.

Ganglandboss

Original Poster:

8,308 posts

204 months

Wednesday 4th October 2023
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Hobo said:
Who made the booking and paid the monies. One person, multiple people or a club ?

If you for example collected the monies from all the people and then booked it yourself then you would just claim as an individual. If you all paid individually you would each have to start the process individually, and finally it you are a formal entity (ie club) then you claim as an organisation.

Re court, I don't think there will be a need for attending to be honest so wouldn't be concerned with that. Its mostly done over the phone these days, include mediation before any court hearing. It's a painful process which is dragged out for an eternity.
Thanks for the reply, Hobo. My OH made the booking and paid the monies via bank transfer from a personal account. She then collected payment from the others. The problem is people travelled separately, so the travel expenses are individual costs.

We are a formal entity though; we are a branch of the British Sub Aqua Club.

Ganglandboss

Original Poster:

8,308 posts

204 months

Tuesday 10th October 2023
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Bit of an update on this. Somebody from the group who had their booking cancelled after ours contacted me by WhatsApp late on Saturday night. He said he had received a panicked voicemail from her, promising a refund would be made. He sent this screenshot from her Facebook profile that was made that evening.



MY OH heard from his wife last night; apparently they have now received a refund. Still nothing for us though.

I have just chased up my email to the MCA and got a very quick response from a Technical Manager saying I could give him a call. He sounded incredibly pleased to hear from me but could not talk for long as he is about to travel. He did have time to tell me they have been on their radar since my email.

There is a recent review on Google from somebody who booked their kid on a five day course with a children's activity group.

Google Review said:
On the 3rd day they went for a boat ride. Unfortunately the boat broke down necessitating assistance from the RNLI and the coastguard. We only knew about this as our son phoned us from the boat using his own phone, there was no communication at all from XXXXXX Divers, and they arrived back on shore 2 hours late.
It seems that as a result of this incident, their boat has subsequently been hauled out of the water, and they have been told in no uncertain terms it is not to go back in until it has been surveyed and other requirements have been met.

Hobo

5,764 posts

247 months

Thursday 14th December 2023
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The company had a CCJ put against its credit file this morning which doesn’t look great, so hopefully the OP got it sorted.

Ganglandboss

Original Poster:

8,308 posts

204 months

Thursday 14th December 2023
quotequote all
Hobo said:
The company had a CCJ put against its credit file this morning which doesn’t look great, so hopefully the OP got it sorted.
Unfortunately we have not got it sorted yet. There have been a couple of minor complications around other members of the group, and my OH and I have had a lot of other stuff on our plate, so we have not been able to get the court application in. We will have it in time for a little Christmas present to her though!

I have had a little bit of fun with her though. I have left a few reviews for her various businesses and she has responded, telling me leaving negative reviews will not get us refunded any quicker, and accusing me of defamation.

She registered another company recently, so she is clearly planning a phoenix scam. The new company even has Phoenix in the name!

The bloke who told me he got refunded said he sent an email, stating quite clearly what he knows they are up to, and she paid up promptly. We did the same and it has made her dig her heels in even more.

She made a big announcement recently that she is launching the new business that was registered with Companies House. She announced it as a merger of her business, her wife's dive school in Warrington, and another business that does a sort of dive adventure experience from the quarry she leases in Llanberis. What is interesting is she says any credit from the other businesses is valid with the new one.

I have had quite a few people contact me via social media with several horror stories. One of them says he used to work for her, and she owes him unpaid wages. He told me he had a falling out with her because she wanted him to teach people in the quarry without safety cover. Any commercial diving activity in the UK is covered by the Diving at Work Regulations 1997. As a club with volunteer instructors, we do not have to comply, but as soon as somebody is being paid, the regulations say you have to have shore cover and a safety diver.

Teaching diving in the UK makes very little money. The bloke who taught me said "The best way to make a million quid from diving is to start with two!". You can get away with charging around £400 for a PADI Open Water course. This will run over four days usually, and you will need an instructor for four days, a safety diver for three, and shore cover for three (my course was morning classroom and afternoon pool over two days, and two days in a quarry in Lancaster. When you factor in your overheads and paying those people, there is not a lot in it. The way dive schools make it pay a bit better is by running a club and getting members to volunteer as safety divers, and the shore cover could be a family member of one of the students. Generally, recreational diver training tends to be run by shops as it brings customers in. The training side will usually bring little profit or even a loss.

Another requirement of the regulations is divers have to have a medical, performed by a hyperbaric physician from the HSE's register. You used to be able to get away with saying the safety diver is a volunteer, but now the HSE have made it clear that the safety diver has to have a medical.

I have been told by more than one person that she has been teaching using a lone instructor, and locking the gates behind her so nobody sees (and also meaning if there was an incident, the chances of being seen are nil, and rescue services are hindered). I am aware that there has been a HSE investigation, and the outcome is the company has been served with an improvement notice, that is on the public register.

I posted a link to the entry on the HSE register on one of her Google review pages and she replied:

Crooked diving instructor said:
"Hi Dave, To respond to your recent review having kept deleting the previous after our reply - you have never actually dived with us to make any informed decision of our operations. It is no secret that one of the Divemasters in the water had a GP medical which was not a person accredited by the HSE and on realising this obtained the correct version the day after this was notified. The reason that the person needed a HSE approved medical as opposed to a standard GP was as all of the staff team are paid for their work - unlike many other places around the UK that get around these regulations by having clubs and having volunteers. With regards to the fact that numerous claims were made about the centres by your self and an ex member of staff, and this being the outcome of the HSE coming to inspect, I would suggest that our operations are quite safe, something which we actually do tend to pride ourselves on:
- Brand new top line equipment each year - including Santi drysuits & Mares & Fourth Element other gear.
- All diver school equipment including the following additional items; Torch, SMB, Whistle, Dive computer and line cutter as standard.
- A staff team of 3 persons for each open water dive project and small group sizes of 2:1 instructor.
- 4 defibrillators held at the dive centres to ensure that there is one on site at all times.
- Oxygen and trauma kit for each site (and additional ones for off site)
- Nautilus personal GPS given to all divers on guided sea dives.
- Coded dive vessels
-Medical trauma trained technicians & swift water rescue personal on site

... to name just a few of the things that we do.

If you do have any other suggestions of how to make our operations safer, please do let us know as we are always looking to improve in respect of safety, as should all other dive centre. With that in mind, we do not take the HSE attending the site due to your complaint as a negative, we would much rather take note and ensure that things are in place to ensure the best safety of our customers. The same for the other places who have bene contacted by yourself and the other person:

Maritime authority - with no case to answer, but some great tips of future development of the vessels.

Trading standards - With no case to answer.

ICO - With no case to answer.

All of which has been a great test of our policies & procedures and have had great feedback from all of those above.

Thanks again - Clare"
I like how she says I have never dived with her; that's why I want my fking money back! hehe

What I strongly suspect has happened is the HSE have attended and asked for the dates of courses, and then asked who the safety diver was, and who provided shore cover. She will have given them the name of a mate, who the HSE will have then requested a medical certificate for. The allegation of diving without safety cover would be difficult to prove, but the lack of medical certificate is easy to prove with a paper check.

I did not mention any of the other agencies in my review, so she has voluntarily published the fact there have been other investigations.

I note she says she says the HSE attended her site due to my complaint; this is not true. I have had no contact with the HSE regarding her business.

I did speak to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. I had a couple of very long telephone conversations with one of their Technical Managers. He told me they began monitoring them after my email, and said the Coastguard had reported a number of incidents involving their boats. He told me it is difficult to get a surveyor to Pwllheli, so I asked if I could pass his contact detail to potential witnesses. I then contacted the marina and got a very grateful email back from the Commercial Manager.

Marina said:
Many thanks for your email, and highlighting issues you’ve had with the company. I have been in recent dialogue with the company due to some incidents that were highlighted to us, and offered our support to enhance the experience to the customers, whilst also enforcing that any activity taking place out of the marina needed to conform with best practice, high assurance of safety an so forth.
I know as a result of this, a number of berth holders have made their complaints official. I was told a while back that her mum threatened to punch somebody's teeth down his throat after she crashed the boat. I have been told this was caught on video.

Since the MCA told them the boat could not be launched until it has been inspected, it has not been used, and has been listed for sale. They have taken the hard boat of their website, but are still advertising RHIB trips. The marina also told me they cancelled their berthing for both vessels and have closed their premises near the marina. Their website does not say where the RHIB is; the illiterate tt says it is 'birthed in a central location'. It is possible it is not in the water, as it can easily be recovered with a trailer. I suspect the only reason the MCA have taken no further action is because the boat in question is out of the water and not going back.

I do not know the current status with Trading Standards. I spoke to CAB (you have to before they will investigate); they gave me some advice about court action, and said they would refer the matter to Trading Standards. Trading Standards have not contacted me. I might give them a chase.

I do not know what the ICO's interest with her is. I was told by her former instructor that she forged his signature on some medical paperwork and diver certifications; perhaps it is something to do with that.

I know she has parted company with PADI following complaints about quality management around training. She is now with SSI. Her former employee said she had been suspended by them, but still teaching and getting others to sign the paperwork. This looks unlikely though, as she has just been signed off as an Instructor Trainer by them. This amazes me that they have allowed this so soon after being given an improvement notice by the HSE.

I noticed recently that a charge has been registered against the company by a business finance company. I suspect that money will get used to bankroll the new company, and let the old one become insolvent.

Her business is crumbling, and it is only a matter of time before it all comes crashing down. Previously she only appears to have ripped off people who lack the means to fight her for their money, but if she has now started with a bank, they won't fk about.

The UK diving community is quite tight knit, and her reputation is in tatters; I have no doubt her business is in its death throes. After that, she will never work in the industry. If we do not get our money back, it will be worth it, especially if she gets sent down for fraud.






Edited by Ganglandboss on Thursday 14th December 14:56

normalbloke

7,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 14th December 2023
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You seem very bitter, sounds like she’s living rent free in your head.Her response seemed quite measured considering.

pavarotti1980

4,919 posts

85 months

Thursday 14th December 2023
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normalbloke said:
You seem very bitter, sounds like she’s living rent free in your head.Her response seemed quite measured considering.
I would have used principled and safety conscious instead of bitter.

Ganglandboss

Original Poster:

8,308 posts

204 months

Thursday 14th December 2023
quotequote all
pavarotti1980 said:
normalbloke said:
You seem very bitter, sounds like she’s living rent free in your head.Her response seemed quite measured considering.
I would have used principled and safety conscious instead of bitter.
I am bitter. When somebody cons me out of money, wastes my glorious summer's weekend in the process, and causes disharmony at a club I have worked hard for, I am entitled to be.

But I like pavarotti1980's viewpoint; I am being principled and safety conscious.

During my enquiries amongst the diving community, I have discovered that not only is she a lying, thieving tt, but she is also happy to wilfully endanger lives (including those of children). I lost a mate to a diving accident just over two years ago, which may have been caused by inappropriate risks taken by the organiser. It is not something I am happy to let go unreported.

Unexpected Item In The Bagging Area

7,030 posts

190 months

Thursday 14th December 2023
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normalbloke said:
You seem very bitter, sounds like she’s living rent free in your head.Her response seemed quite measured considering.
Not measured enough to give him a refund though. The name of her new company says it all.

Keep up the good work, OP!

QuickQuack

2,214 posts

102 months

Friday 15th December 2023
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normalbloke said:
You seem very bitter, sounds like she’s living rent free in your head.Her response seemed quite measured considering.
You sound like somebody who doesn't understand the risks involved in diving, the safety requirements for teaching and training, the reasons for those requirements, or the potential consequences of not following the requirements. Her response seemed full of misrepresentations of the truth and downright lies. It was obviously aimed at conning the clueless. It seems to have succeeded.

Drawweight

2,893 posts

117 months

Friday 15th December 2023
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normalbloke said:
You seem very bitter, sounds like she’s living rent free in your head.Her response seemed quite measured considering.
People like her get away with it purely because there aren’t enough like the OP around.

They’ve probably being screwing customers out of money for years and most will say ‘it’s only a few quid’ and write it off.

Hats off to someone actually doing something about it.

Ganglandboss

Original Poster:

8,308 posts

204 months

Thursday 21st March
quotequote all
We have submitted our claim to the County Courts, and she has now responded. She rejects our claim in full, and is defending it on the grounds that she issued us with a credit note, as per her terms and conditions.

This is demonstrably untrue, as her emails show she offered a refund. I am also informed her T&Cs fall foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act. There is also the small matter that she cannot deliver the service we paid for as she no longer has the boat.

Meanwhile, some of the other st that is coming down on her is hard to believe...

She has now been expelled from PADI, and is listed as such on their website.

The CCJ she got in December is still unsatisfied.

The HSE case against her is crazy. I heard rumours that she is routinely flouting the Diving at Work Regulations, and she was served with an improvement notice last year, when the HSE found out her safety diver did not have a HSE medical. She has publicly admitted this on social media, but claims it was an error made by the safety diver, who she claims believed a GP's note was sufficient. She also claims the HSE investigation is over.

What has really happened is she had a family sign up for some training (mum, dad and son). She had three different instructors teaching them. Each instructor was teaching alone - no safety diver, no shore cover, and the gates tot the quarry locked behind them.

The instructor on day 3 raised concerns to her about teaching alone. He is not a UK national and did not know at first that this is actually illegal in the UK. She dismissed his concerns and he has subsequently gone to the HSE.

I do not know exactly how they conducted their investigation, but I expect one of the first things they do is demand to see all the dive logs. They will no doubt then ask for the medical certificates of the instructors and safety divers named on that log. This is an easy one for the HSE to prove, so they can issue an improvement notice fairly swiftly.

If the safety divers were not there, so she is relying on people being willing to lie for her. One of those people is her mother, who says she was providing shore cover. At the same time one of the dives was taking place, the England women's football team were playing, and she has put a photo on Facebook showing she was watching it in her living room.

The HSE have then contacted the family, and the parents are now quite angry. Dad has contacted the agency she is now teaching under and made a complaint. He then finds out she has signed the paperwork to say she taught them, which is untrue. He also finds out the instructor on the second day was not qualified. He has also discovered that somebody has forged his and his wife's signatures on the paperwork.

I am also aware the finance company she borrowed from have started recovery proceedings.

I doubt we will ever see a penny, but it is very clear she has a world of st coming down on her.

Flumpo

3,761 posts

74 months

Thursday 21st March
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I know nothing about diving, but if she is flouting laws there for good safety reasons, I hope she gets jail time.

CraigyMc

16,420 posts

237 months

Thursday 21st March
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Ganglandboss said:
We have submitted our claim to the County Courts, and she has now responded. She rejects our claim in full, and is defending it on the grounds that she issued us with a credit note, as per her terms and conditions.

This is demonstrably untrue, as her emails show she offered a refund. I am also informed her T&Cs fall foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act. There is also the small matter that she cannot deliver the service we paid for as she no longer has the boat.

Meanwhile, some of the other st that is coming down on her is hard to believe...

She has now been expelled from PADI, and is listed as such on their website.

The CCJ she got in December is still unsatisfied.

The HSE case against her is crazy. I heard rumours that she is routinely flouting the Diving at Work Regulations, and she was served with an improvement notice last year, when the HSE found out her safety diver did not have a HSE medical. She has publicly admitted this on social media, but claims it was an error made by the safety diver, who she claims believed a GP's note was sufficient. She also claims the HSE investigation is over.

What has really happened is she had a family sign up for some training (mum, dad and son). She had three different instructors teaching them. Each instructor was teaching alone - no safety diver, no shore cover, and the gates tot the quarry locked behind them.

The instructor on day 3 raised concerns to her about teaching alone. He is not a UK national and did not know at first that this is actually illegal in the UK. She dismissed his concerns and he has subsequently gone to the HSE.

I do not know exactly how they conducted their investigation, but I expect one of the first things they do is demand to see all the dive logs. They will no doubt then ask for the medical certificates of the instructors and safety divers named on that log. This is an easy one for the HSE to prove, so they can issue an improvement notice fairly swiftly.

If the safety divers were not there, so she is relying on people being willing to lie for her. One of those people is her mother, who says she was providing shore cover. At the same time one of the dives was taking place, the England women's football team were playing, and she has put a photo on Facebook showing she was watching it in her living room.

The HSE have then contacted the family, and the parents are now quite angry. Dad has contacted the agency she is now teaching under and made a complaint. He then finds out she has signed the paperwork to say she taught them, which is untrue. He also finds out the instructor on the second day was not qualified. He has also discovered that somebody has forged his and his wife's signatures on the paperwork.

I am also aware the finance company she borrowed from have started recovery proceedings.

I doubt we will ever see a penny, but it is very clear she has a world of st coming down on her.
I looked into this out of interest and noticed another new company has been created, as of 4 days ago, but not in her name directly. Just FYI in case you've not seen already.


Simpo Two

85,504 posts

266 months

Thursday 21st March
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Ganglandboss said:
We have submitted our claim to the County Courts, and she has now responded. She rejects our claim in full, and is defending it
Digging in. Well, grab all your evidence and put it a neat line ready for court. Remember that circumstantial stuff or how many other companies she may or may not have started are irrelevant. Good luck smile

NRG1976

984 posts

11 months

Thursday 21st March
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Hope you make these cowboys pay, the lack of concern for divers well-being will eventually lead to someone getting injured or worse.

Forester1965

1,529 posts

4 months

Thursday 21st March
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The dive operation sounds shoddy and dangerous.

To pragmatism. You've probably spent 10s of hours on this (and maybe even more). You won't get that time back, either as life or money. In the circumstances £900 back would have been a reasonable result. Going to court on principle is never a good idea. Ultimately they can avoid personal responsibility (for your booking cost, at least) and leave you hanging with the stress and cost of legal action.

An educated hunch suggests the business you contracted with has been in increasing difficulty and the new one is a lifeboat (please excuse the pun). You don't have anything like enough at stake to go down the route of trying to prevent a winding up or putting liability anywhere else.

If you can get your £900, take it and run, however I fear it may be too late to get that now.

BrettMRC

4,104 posts

161 months

Friday 22nd March
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Good on you OP, firms like this that are run by chancers and fraudsters need to be pilloried.

The proprietors need to know that not everyone is a mug; if no one stands on points of principal and fairness then the end game leads us to chaos and disorder.

audikarma

23 posts

98 months

Friday 22nd March
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You sound like hard work.

Forester1965

1,529 posts

4 months

Friday 22nd March
quotequote all
audikarma said:
You sound like hard work.
Perhaps a bit harsh but it does seem to have become obsessive. If the OP had been more patient the likelihood is they'd have the £900 in hand by now and possibly put the £200 down to experience.