Boat charter cancelled - refund not forthcoming
Discussion
Forester1965 said:
ith respect, the courts aren't there to facilitate moral crusades. The reparation the OP's looking for is money. If the company has no money, it has no money. If he' concerned about safety, he can report to the relevant bodies, which I believe he's already done.
The courts are a finite resource with no spare capacity and long delays for genuine claimants. Clogging them up with money claims doomed to failure to pursue a personal principle is wrong, on principle.
The OP and his clubmates are down over £1000 with what they feel is a valid claim. It's for the courts to decide that. Whether or not the defendant has the means to pay may influence the OPs assessment on whether it represents good value to go forward but they are fine from a principle point of view in my books. At the very least it's good to get these things on record.The courts are a finite resource with no spare capacity and long delays for genuine claimants. Clogging them up with money claims doomed to failure to pursue a personal principle is wrong, on principle.
I believe the OP also wants to follow correct procedure and show his clubmates that he has done so. A result in court, even if it doesn't result in money in the bank will help them demonstrate this.
rpguk said:
I believe the OP also wants to follow correct procedure and show his clubmates that he has done so. A result in court, even if it doesn't result in money in the bank will help them demonstrate this.
The company offered £900 (which the court will likely hold them to). That should be a simple win. The argument is over the other £225. Seems pretty straightforward, they paid £1125 and the refund didn't offer them £1125 (or realistic explanation as to why without at least seeing the whole T&Cs).All the other stuff is irrelevant. At a guess had he been less aggressive from the get-go the owner may have paid the £900 and he could have claimed the extra from them with that in the bank, who knows?
There has been another development.
I was contacted a few days ago by the dad from the family involved in the HSE case, who also have a County Court claim against them. He asked me for my email address and forwarded some correspondence between him and his local County Court.
Just to recap, Company 1, who we booked with has mother and daughter as directors. Company 2 is the new name of the first business and has the daughter and her wife as directors (mother was briefly a director too). I have not posted this yet, but the wife has registered Company 3, with just her as a director.
The email he sent to the court informed them that he had an outstanding County Court case against Company 1, and that he was aware of another (ours), and an unsatisfied CCJ. The court hearing was listed for 15 minutes in the name of the daughter, as a a civil application. He thought it may be an attempt to have Company 1 wound up, so he asked what the proper way of making a representation to the court was. I sent a similar email and was told it had been forwarded to the District Judge.
The bloke who contacted me told me he only lives 20 minutes away, so he was going to the hearing. I got a call from him later.
The hearing related to a debt the daughter has in her own name. It seems the boat is owned by her personally, and she leased it to the business. She has borrowed £35,000, and defaulted on the repayments. The finance company are going to apply to make her bankrupt, but cannot do so at the moment as she has 'breathing space'. Yesterday's hearing was an application to extend the breathing space, however, she did not show up.
The solicitor representing the finance company has asked for the case to be adjourned and relisted at the earliest opportunity after her breathing space period has ended, and they are then going to apply for her to be made bankrupt.
I also have it on good authority that her mother is in a similar situation, so it looks like both the directors will be disqualified. This leaves Company 1 with no directors, Company 2 with just one, and Company 3 unaffected.
This means that if we get a judgement, the bailiffs won't be able to slap a notice on the boat, so this makes our chances of getting anything back even more remote.
Question: what are the processes when all of a limited company's directors are disqualified following bankruptcy?
With regards to the latest company, it has the suffix 'fest' in its one word name, so i guessed it was clearly it is some sort of event. They announced the launch and published the website the same day she was in court. They are supposed to be organising a 'scuba diving and conservation festival' over a weekend in September 2025. They say there will be manufacturers present, talks, a professionals area, camping with barbecue and live music, and product demonstrations in their quarry.
They are advertising stands from £350 +VAT, then £5,000 to be the headline sponsor, 2 main sponsors at £2,000 each, 5 sub-sponsors at £1,000 each, and 8 awards sponsors at £250 each.
I will show my arse in the middle of Lidl if this event goes ahead. Their reputation is bad enough that nobody in the industry with any sense will have any involvement in it. I have put the word out to a few people I know who are involved with organisations like Seasearch and the Marine Conservation Society, to make them aware of who is behind this venture.
The other issue is I am sure they will lose the lease on the quarry pretty soon. The council who own it have a case against them relating to their health and safety breaches, and there is another group offering to take it over. I would expect the lease to be in the name of Company 1, which means it will be terminated if the company is struck off.
I then suspect those unfortunate enough to be hoodwinked will have a fight to get their money back.
I was contacted a few days ago by the dad from the family involved in the HSE case, who also have a County Court claim against them. He asked me for my email address and forwarded some correspondence between him and his local County Court.
Just to recap, Company 1, who we booked with has mother and daughter as directors. Company 2 is the new name of the first business and has the daughter and her wife as directors (mother was briefly a director too). I have not posted this yet, but the wife has registered Company 3, with just her as a director.
The email he sent to the court informed them that he had an outstanding County Court case against Company 1, and that he was aware of another (ours), and an unsatisfied CCJ. The court hearing was listed for 15 minutes in the name of the daughter, as a a civil application. He thought it may be an attempt to have Company 1 wound up, so he asked what the proper way of making a representation to the court was. I sent a similar email and was told it had been forwarded to the District Judge.
The bloke who contacted me told me he only lives 20 minutes away, so he was going to the hearing. I got a call from him later.
The hearing related to a debt the daughter has in her own name. It seems the boat is owned by her personally, and she leased it to the business. She has borrowed £35,000, and defaulted on the repayments. The finance company are going to apply to make her bankrupt, but cannot do so at the moment as she has 'breathing space'. Yesterday's hearing was an application to extend the breathing space, however, she did not show up.
The solicitor representing the finance company has asked for the case to be adjourned and relisted at the earliest opportunity after her breathing space period has ended, and they are then going to apply for her to be made bankrupt.
I also have it on good authority that her mother is in a similar situation, so it looks like both the directors will be disqualified. This leaves Company 1 with no directors, Company 2 with just one, and Company 3 unaffected.
This means that if we get a judgement, the bailiffs won't be able to slap a notice on the boat, so this makes our chances of getting anything back even more remote.
Question: what are the processes when all of a limited company's directors are disqualified following bankruptcy?
With regards to the latest company, it has the suffix 'fest' in its one word name, so i guessed it was clearly it is some sort of event. They announced the launch and published the website the same day she was in court. They are supposed to be organising a 'scuba diving and conservation festival' over a weekend in September 2025. They say there will be manufacturers present, talks, a professionals area, camping with barbecue and live music, and product demonstrations in their quarry.
They are advertising stands from £350 +VAT, then £5,000 to be the headline sponsor, 2 main sponsors at £2,000 each, 5 sub-sponsors at £1,000 each, and 8 awards sponsors at £250 each.
I will show my arse in the middle of Lidl if this event goes ahead. Their reputation is bad enough that nobody in the industry with any sense will have any involvement in it. I have put the word out to a few people I know who are involved with organisations like Seasearch and the Marine Conservation Society, to make them aware of who is behind this venture.
The other issue is I am sure they will lose the lease on the quarry pretty soon. The council who own it have a case against them relating to their health and safety breaches, and there is another group offering to take it over. I would expect the lease to be in the name of Company 1, which means it will be terminated if the company is struck off.
I then suspect those unfortunate enough to be hoodwinked will have a fight to get their money back.
Well done OP. You've gambled a £900 return against a £1125 return and lost. You haven't even put the business under. Others seem to have got there before you.
So despite your admirable stand on principle, you've actually lost £1125 to say 'I told you so'.
There's a lesson in there somewhere I feel.
So despite your admirable stand on principle, you've actually lost £1125 to say 'I told you so'.
There's a lesson in there somewhere I feel.
Chrisgr31 said:
I thought the £900 was offered and indeed "sent" but never received - which suggests it wasnt sent. Therefore he hasnt gambled £900 against £1125 but £0 against £1125.
That is my reading of it too:Ganglandboss said:
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
No, the OP got all 'letter before action' and so the offered money wasn't sent.
I think if he'd graciously accepted the £900, he'd have got it. We'll never know now.
There was never any £900. You and that other Forester clown have been banging on about this for the entire thread, blaming the OP. If you go back and read what was written, she agreed to refund £900 on 6 September and have her accountant process the payment to be in his account by 11 September. That didn't happen, which is what prompted the additional comms asking her why the money hadn't been received as promised and the questioning over the amount itself. Then the goal posts were moved back another 18 days to 29 September and - predictably - that didn't happen either.I think if he'd graciously accepted the £900, he'd have got it. We'll never know now.
None of it made any difference because the £900 was never there and never coming so it's a moot point. That much was obvious when she tried to make out that her tinpot diving tour co. was some big name brand when she dropped the [paraphrasing] "I've instructed my accountants to make the payment" line, when the reality is all she had to do was log in to her business banking account, type in the OPs bank accounts and the £900 would have been back in his account within minutes.
Unfortunately, with the way her new phoenix companies are breeding, and the original one now having CCJs lodged against it which have been ignored, the OP can forget recouping any of his monies via legal routes now.
I don't know who you are mate. But I haven't been 'banging on' the whole thread.
Suggest you read again. I haven't blamed the OP at all.
If there's a clown here, it's you. As usual you infect every thread with your aggressive abrasive manner.
This thread was started on 23rd September 2023. My first post was nine days ago in support of the OP. Engage your brain before letting your mouth run a full throttle eh?
Suggest you read again. I haven't blamed the OP at all.
If there's a clown here, it's you. As usual you infect every thread with your aggressive abrasive manner.
This thread was started on 23rd September 2023. My first post was nine days ago in support of the OP. Engage your brain before letting your mouth run a full throttle eh?
Edited by Jordie Barretts sock on Saturday 20th April 10:01
r3g said:
There was never any £900. You and that other Forester clown have been banging on about this for the entire thread, blaming the OP. If you go back and read what was written, she agreed to refund £900 on 6 September and have her accountant process the payment to be in his account by 11 September. That didn't happen, which is what prompted the additional comms asking her why the money hadn't been received as promised and the questioning over the amount itself. Then the goal posts were moved back another 18 days to 29 September and - predictably - that didn't happen either.
None of it made any difference because the £900 was never there and never coming so it's a moot point.
This from the 10th October. Seems there was refund money available, after all. Perhaps going nuclear far too early damaged his chances?None of it made any difference because the £900 was never there and never coming so it's a moot point.
Ganglandboss said:
Bit of an update on this. Somebody from the group who had their booking cancelled after ours contacted me by WhatsApp late on Saturday night. He said he had received a panicked voicemail from her, promising a refund would be made....
...MY OH heard from his wife last night; apparently they have now received a refund. Still nothing for us though.
...MY OH heard from his wife last night; apparently they have now received a refund. Still nothing for us though.
With regards to the £900 offered, as a few people have said, it was never going to be paid. We did wait to see if it was paid before complaining.
As to why the other group got refunded but we did not, I do not know the answer to that, but it was not because they were more patient - quite the opposite in fact. As I said earlier, the other group was a BSAC club from the Clyde area, and one member of the group is a dive boat operator, and another is the current BSAC chair. I know them through the former.
When he told me he had got a refund, his exact words were, "We basically just threatened her...". As this seemed to work, we also tried a similar approach, but did not get the same result.
As for why, I do not know, but I suspect it could be the fact the group includes a highly regarded skipper and the current Chair of BSAC, they might be well connected, and have better resources available to pursue them. Another possibility is the fact that her mum's Facebook privacy settings aren't particularly secure, and she posted a picture of her daughter and the skipper getting married on the day of their booking.
Yesterday's development is the mother (who is the other director) was due in county court, with the hearing listed as a creditor's petition. She did not show up.
The solicitor representing the finance company told the court that when they try to serve papers, she hides behind the door and turns the lights off. If they push them through the letterbox, she pushes them back out again. He said he is going to try and serve them at her workplace and has requested a hearing as soon after the 17th May as possible.
The bloke I have been speaking to said he has complained to SSI again. He has done so previously to the UK office and was not impressed by their apparent failure to act. He has gone to the German office, which he believes is the headquarters for the EMEA region. They have responded this morning saying based on the evidence he has presented, they are putting together an investigation panel with immediate effect.
As to why the other group got refunded but we did not, I do not know the answer to that, but it was not because they were more patient - quite the opposite in fact. As I said earlier, the other group was a BSAC club from the Clyde area, and one member of the group is a dive boat operator, and another is the current BSAC chair. I know them through the former.
When he told me he had got a refund, his exact words were, "We basically just threatened her...". As this seemed to work, we also tried a similar approach, but did not get the same result.
As for why, I do not know, but I suspect it could be the fact the group includes a highly regarded skipper and the current Chair of BSAC, they might be well connected, and have better resources available to pursue them. Another possibility is the fact that her mum's Facebook privacy settings aren't particularly secure, and she posted a picture of her daughter and the skipper getting married on the day of their booking.
Yesterday's development is the mother (who is the other director) was due in county court, with the hearing listed as a creditor's petition. She did not show up.
The solicitor representing the finance company told the court that when they try to serve papers, she hides behind the door and turns the lights off. If they push them through the letterbox, she pushes them back out again. He said he is going to try and serve them at her workplace and has requested a hearing as soon after the 17th May as possible.
The bloke I have been speaking to said he has complained to SSI again. He has done so previously to the UK office and was not impressed by their apparent failure to act. He has gone to the German office, which he believes is the headquarters for the EMEA region. They have responded this morning saying based on the evidence he has presented, they are putting together an investigation panel with immediate effect.
I think you're possibly almost as bad as each other.
You jumped into a Letter Before Action after only a few days instead of continuing to negotiate. That potentially cost you the £900 offered, as we know others who complained after you did get their money.
On 2nd October you said "I suspect the company will go under before we get anything". From early doors you believed the company would fold, which means you would need to expedite any claim before that happens.
On 14th December, 2 months later, you said "Unfortunately we have not got it sorted yet [submitting a claim]. There have been a couple of minor complications around other members of the group, and my OH and I have had a lot of other stuff on our plate, so we have not been able to get the court application in. We will have it in time for a little Christmas present to her though!".
Despite the fact you suspected the company wouldn't be able to pay you because it'd go under, you still hadn't submitted your claim more than 2 months later. You claim this was because you had too much on your plate, however in the period since not getting your refund, you did have the time to;
- Research the company extensively online and in conversations with various people by phone and WhatsApp
- Report them to Citizens Advice and Trading Standards
- Report them to the Maritime And Coastguard Agency
- Report them to PADI
- Discuss at length with the chairman of the BSAC
- Have an email conversation with their accountant
- Report them to Companies House
- Chase up your report to the MCA
- Write numerous bad reviews against the business online
- Stalked anything to do with the business/directors
Things you didn't have the time to do:
- Take an hour to fill in the claim form that was the only route to recover the money owed to you and your friends
It wasn't until nearly the end of March that you received a defence to your claim. Assuming you posted within a day or two of receiving it, that means you didn't get around to claiming until February, 5 months after the event. You have the temerity to spend 5 months telling the world how terrible these people are for not refunding you and your friends before you do anything practical about it. Everything else you've done has been a crusade for your own obsession and nothing about helping your friends get their money.
In reality, your own behaviour has likely cost your friends' the opportunity to get their money back. That is not to excuse the company, they sound awful, but you haven't been much better, to be frank. If were one of your friends, I'd be looking to you to give me my money back, irrespective.
You jumped into a Letter Before Action after only a few days instead of continuing to negotiate. That potentially cost you the £900 offered, as we know others who complained after you did get their money.
On 2nd October you said "I suspect the company will go under before we get anything". From early doors you believed the company would fold, which means you would need to expedite any claim before that happens.
On 14th December, 2 months later, you said "Unfortunately we have not got it sorted yet [submitting a claim]. There have been a couple of minor complications around other members of the group, and my OH and I have had a lot of other stuff on our plate, so we have not been able to get the court application in. We will have it in time for a little Christmas present to her though!".
Despite the fact you suspected the company wouldn't be able to pay you because it'd go under, you still hadn't submitted your claim more than 2 months later. You claim this was because you had too much on your plate, however in the period since not getting your refund, you did have the time to;
- Research the company extensively online and in conversations with various people by phone and WhatsApp
- Report them to Citizens Advice and Trading Standards
- Report them to the Maritime And Coastguard Agency
- Report them to PADI
- Discuss at length with the chairman of the BSAC
- Have an email conversation with their accountant
- Report them to Companies House
- Chase up your report to the MCA
- Write numerous bad reviews against the business online
- Stalked anything to do with the business/directors
Things you didn't have the time to do:
- Take an hour to fill in the claim form that was the only route to recover the money owed to you and your friends
It wasn't until nearly the end of March that you received a defence to your claim. Assuming you posted within a day or two of receiving it, that means you didn't get around to claiming until February, 5 months after the event. You have the temerity to spend 5 months telling the world how terrible these people are for not refunding you and your friends before you do anything practical about it. Everything else you've done has been a crusade for your own obsession and nothing about helping your friends get their money.
In reality, your own behaviour has likely cost your friends' the opportunity to get their money back. That is not to excuse the company, they sound awful, but you haven't been much better, to be frank. If were one of your friends, I'd be looking to you to give me my money back, irrespective.
Ganglandboss said:
The solicitor representing the finance company told the court that when they try to serve papers, she hides behind the door and turns the lights off. If they push them through the letterbox, she pushes them back out again. He said he is going to try and serve them at her workplace and has requested a hearing as soon after the 17th May as possible.
That seemed a bit daft to me so I checked...According to https://www.georgeide.co.uk/blog/dispute-resolutio...
[i]For UK-based individuals, there are several options to serve documents including first class post, handing a document to your opponent (or business) in person, or leaving it at their residence. This applies to both individuals and companies.
Common valid methods of service include:
Personal service under Civil Procedure Rule Part 6.5 (i.e. handing the document to the recipient directly or a senior representative within a company)
First class post, official document exchange or another next-business-day service
Delivery of the document to or leaving the document to a specified place
Fax or other electronic means, where agreed
Any method authorised by the court in Rule 6.15[/i]
So the finance company could simply have posted it, no need to pay a solicitor to play pat-a-cake with a letterbox and fail... You'd expect a solicitor to know that, so maybe the story is BS.
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