Fatal Accident: How long should road remain closed?
Discussion
Dashnine said:
I guess better communication, however it could be done would help those stuck behind the closure for many hours, as above?
Does anyone communicate what's going, or is it Chinese Whispers down the line of cars as to what has happened while they wait? Even a Traffic Car going down the hard shoulder with info on the rear display panel would help.
Do they generally turn cars around and get people off at the previous junction? I've not been caught in one but I imagine the frustation at the lack of information while stuck on a motorway for hours on end is huge.
As the situation per my post above, people were being turned around to go to a previous junction. But it is a very slow process. There wasn't any communication other than "there will be a closure for the foreseeable" if you knew where to look which was the, local police twitter feed. I guess they don't want to comment and call on a specific situation until the investigation has strong enough evidence.Does anyone communicate what's going, or is it Chinese Whispers down the line of cars as to what has happened while they wait? Even a Traffic Car going down the hard shoulder with info on the rear display panel would help.
Do they generally turn cars around and get people off at the previous junction? I've not been caught in one but I imagine the frustation at the lack of information while stuck on a motorway for hours on end is huge.
Dashnine said:
Do they generally turn cars around and get people off at the previous junction? I've not been caught in one but I imagine the frustation at the lack of information while stuck on a motorway for hours on end is huge.
Yes; I saw this for the first time on the A14 on Monday. One carriageway was closed for about seven hours after a two-car collision (one person injured, one person arrested for drug driving). Luckily I was going the other way, but saw the remarkable sight of cars driving the wrong way along the other carriageway for a mile or two then leaving at a sliproad. Obviously orchestrated by Plod or there'd have been even more carnage.I can't figure out how they cleared the right-hand lane, which must have been packed with traffic, to enable it to happen though - unless they all reversed?
StressedDave said:
1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
Seems there's a combined forensic team between four forces in the area, and who have pretty modern kit:https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/policing-and-crime...
the page said:
Using cutting-edge technology, the team meticulously examine collision scenes and the vehicles involved to determine the factors contributing to the incident. This information is used by the police to build a picture of the series of events leading up to the collision.
The forensics are paired with the wider evidence and presented to the courts to make a judgement on the cause, and where needed, bring offenders to justice.
The findings are also used to identify ways to prevent future collisions and make roads safer for all.
Recent advances include documenting collision scenes with 3D laser scanners, and calculating vehicle speeds from CCTV, as well as an in-house training centre to support further development.
The forensics are paired with the wider evidence and presented to the courts to make a judgement on the cause, and where needed, bring offenders to justice.
The findings are also used to identify ways to prevent future collisions and make roads safer for all.
Recent advances include documenting collision scenes with 3D laser scanners, and calculating vehicle speeds from CCTV, as well as an in-house training centre to support further development.
Voldemort said:
FYI I've just reported the thread in the following terms,
"I started this thread to get a question answered. I got the information I wanted and now it has/is descending into personal jibes.
Can you just close or delete the thread please?"
Hopefully the mods will oblige but in any event can we keep it civil.
"I started this thread to get a question answered. I got the information I wanted and now it has/is descending into personal jibes.
Can you just close or delete the thread please?"
Hopefully the mods will oblige but in any event can we keep it civil.
It's embarrassing to read some of the responses you've had to what was a perfectly sensible question.
[quote=kestral] and fatjon
Hear, hear.But instead we get some sort of demonstration of collective sorrow foisted upon us as a matter course, like it or not.
"My god a person has died"! and in a road traffic accident!
Cobblers get the traffic moving ASAP the living want to live.
You both have not got a clue .
As long as you are not inconvenienced, in your opinions is it a case of no one should give a F*** if someone has been killed in an accident, or care how or why it happened.
I hope neither of you ever have friends (if you have any with an attitude like that ) or family involved in a serious or fatal accident .
You obviously don't understand what happens when someone is hurt or killed in an accident or what has to be done to try and mitigate the risks of it happening again.
It needs detailed investigation and then the forensics can discover what happened and who ,if anyone is at fault.
I assume you would like anyone who kills or seriously injures someone else not to be investigated and just let off with a "Oh well it happened so get on with your life" even though they have killed someone or ruined their lives with life changing injuries.
I have seen the after effects of fatal and serious road traffic collisions and it is not nice .
As for timing of road closures it can take a long time to cut a vehicle to bits to get casualties out let alone the clean up afterwards , Family sometimes are escorted to the scene so they can understand what happened .
As far as I am concerned it takes as long as it has to .
Rant over
Hear, hear.But instead we get some sort of demonstration of collective sorrow foisted upon us as a matter course, like it or not.
"My god a person has died"! and in a road traffic accident!
Cobblers get the traffic moving ASAP the living want to live.
You both have not got a clue .
As long as you are not inconvenienced, in your opinions is it a case of no one should give a F*** if someone has been killed in an accident, or care how or why it happened.
I hope neither of you ever have friends (if you have any with an attitude like that ) or family involved in a serious or fatal accident .
You obviously don't understand what happens when someone is hurt or killed in an accident or what has to be done to try and mitigate the risks of it happening again.
It needs detailed investigation and then the forensics can discover what happened and who ,if anyone is at fault.
I assume you would like anyone who kills or seriously injures someone else not to be investigated and just let off with a "Oh well it happened so get on with your life" even though they have killed someone or ruined their lives with life changing injuries.
I have seen the after effects of fatal and serious road traffic collisions and it is not nice .
As for timing of road closures it can take a long time to cut a vehicle to bits to get casualties out let alone the clean up afterwards , Family sometimes are escorted to the scene so they can understand what happened .
As far as I am concerned it takes as long as it has to .
Rant over
Gareth79 said:
StressedDave said:
1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
Seems there's a combined forensic team between four forces in the area, and who have pretty modern kit:https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/policing-and-crime...
the page said:
Using cutting-edge technology, the team meticulously examine collision scenes and the vehicles involved to determine the factors contributing to the incident. This information is used by the police to build a picture of the series of events leading up to the collision.
The forensics are paired with the wider evidence and presented to the courts to make a judgement on the cause, and where needed, bring offenders to justice.
The findings are also used to identify ways to prevent future collisions and make roads safer for all.
Recent advances include documenting collision scenes with 3D laser scanners, and calculating vehicle speeds from CCTV, as well as an in-house training centre to support further development.
The forensics are paired with the wider evidence and presented to the courts to make a judgement on the cause, and where needed, bring offenders to justice.
The findings are also used to identify ways to prevent future collisions and make roads safer for all.
Recent advances include documenting collision scenes with 3D laser scanners, and calculating vehicle speeds from CCTV, as well as an in-house training centre to support further development.
How many of these great long investigations result in a conviction?
None of it brings anyone back.
Maybe some of those man hours would be better spent taking the crap drivers off the road before they kill someone?
Anything where people say 'it takes as long as it takes and you dare not question that!' really needs to be questioned.
OutInTheShed said:
The question is, how often does any of this actually do any good?
How many of these great long investigations result in a conviction?
None of it brings anyone back.
Maybe some of those man hours would be better spent taking the crap drivers off the road before they kill someone?
Anything where people say 'it takes as long as it takes and you dare not question that!' really needs to be questioned.
Couple of points: How many of these great long investigations result in a conviction?
None of it brings anyone back.
Maybe some of those man hours would be better spent taking the crap drivers off the road before they kill someone?
Anything where people say 'it takes as long as it takes and you dare not question that!' really needs to be questioned.
1. Road deaths occurred in the 1970 but I don't recollect extended road closures like today. Ethos back then was to keep the network open and flowing. That priority seems to have gone.
2. How do other countries handle similar challenges? Does Germany shut down autobahns for extended periods? Do Americans gladly suffer lengthy closure of interstates?
Can't help believing there must be a better solution than UK's.
bigothunter said:
2. How do other countries handle similar challenges? Does Germany shut down autobahns for extended periods?
Yes they do. Wife was sat for hours stationary on an autobahn a few weeks ago whilst the police dealt with a crash. There are some very self centred people on this thread. (Not aimed at OP)
MrTrilby said:
bigothunter said:
2. How do other countries handle similar challenges? Does Germany shut down autobahns for extended periods?
Yes they do. Wife was sat for hours stationary on an autobahn a few weeks ago whilst the police dealt with a crash. There are some very self centred people on this thread. (Not aimed at OP)
freedman said:
Wasn't there a similar incident a year or two ago on the same road ? I think it was on the opposite side of the road just across from the old fire station, similar scenario, an unfortunate woman stood at a bus stop was killed.Hansard said:
M.1 Motorway (Accidents)
HC Deb 24 January 1964 vol 687 cc171-2W171W
Mr. Holt asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the blockage of the M.1 for about three hours near Luton on 21st January when some 65 vehicles piled up in fog and ice conditions; and what steps he proposes to take to avoid a recurrence.
I can't find any reference to deaths but there must have been serious injuries in this 65 vehicle pile up.HC Deb 24 January 1964 vol 687 cc171-2W171W
Mr. Holt asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the blockage of the M.1 for about three hours near Luton on 21st January when some 65 vehicles piled up in fog and ice conditions; and what steps he proposes to take to avoid a recurrence.
Back in 1964, three hour blockage of the M1 motorway was considered sufficiently serious to be raised in Westminster parliament. Today such a comparatively 'minimal' delay would hardly be noticed.
Big shift in culture, priorities and relevance of lost time.
bigothunter said:
MrTrilby said:
bigothunter said:
2. How do other countries handle similar challenges? Does Germany shut down autobahns for extended periods?
Yes they do. Wife was sat for hours stationary on an autobahn a few weeks ago whilst the police dealt with a crash. There are some very self centred people on this thread. (Not aimed at OP)
Comments wailing for the priorities of the 1970s seem incredibly blinkered and ignorant - there were 5 times as many road casualties then compared to now. Sure some of that is because cars are safer, but also because our roads are designed better and attitudes improved. You’re not really suggesting you want to go back to higher fatalities just so you aren’t inconvenienced occasionally are you?
If you don’t investigate the reasons why crashes happen, how can you possibly expect improvements to happen to try and prevent them happening again?
And as to implying it doesn’t happen in other countries: you need to put the Daily Express down and get out more.
MrTrilby said:
Yup.
Comments wailing for the priorities of the 1970s seem incredibly blinkered and ignorant - there were 5 times as many road casualties then compared to now. Sure some of that is because cars are safer, but also because our roads are designed better and attitudes improved. You’re not really suggesting you want to go back to higher fatalities just so you aren’t inconvenienced occasionally are you?
If you don’t investigate the reasons why crashes happen, how can you possibly expect improvements to happen to try and prevent them happening again?
And as to implying it doesn’t happen in other countries: you need to put the Daily Express down and get out more.
Would seem I have dared to question the unquestionable. Only the dumb refuse to learn from history.Comments wailing for the priorities of the 1970s seem incredibly blinkered and ignorant - there were 5 times as many road casualties then compared to now. Sure some of that is because cars are safer, but also because our roads are designed better and attitudes improved. You’re not really suggesting you want to go back to higher fatalities just so you aren’t inconvenienced occasionally are you?
If you don’t investigate the reasons why crashes happen, how can you possibly expect improvements to happen to try and prevent them happening again?
And as to implying it doesn’t happen in other countries: you need to put the Daily Express down and get out more.
Your Daily Express comment was particularly inept. Notoriously that rag fanned the flames of 'something must be done to stop the carnage' back in 1964.
kestral said:
Hear, hear.
But instead we get some sort of demonstration of collective sorrow foisted upon us as a matter course, like it or not.
"My god a person has died"! and in a road traffic accident!
Cobblers get the traffic moving ASAP the living want to live.
Twunt of the year winner.But instead we get some sort of demonstration of collective sorrow foisted upon us as a matter course, like it or not.
"My god a person has died"! and in a road traffic accident!
Cobblers get the traffic moving ASAP the living want to live.
Edited by kestral on Wednesday 22 November 11:16
I've no idea what happened on the M1 last night J14, Northbound closed, Southbound closed from J15, radio said Air Ambulance was at the scene, I left Cobham in Surrey at 15.30, walked into my house in Teesside at 23.00, it was frustrating and tiring but at least I made it home, someone or some others didn't. Road closures are put in place for obvious reasons and I assume they remain closed for as long as the investigators deem necessary.
J4CKO said:
Maybe ask to join them on a fatal accident, see a mangled body in a car, drink in the sights and smells, go through the process, maybe even get involved in extricating a dead body from crushed car, maybe intact, maybe in pieces. I have never been but having worked in the Police I spoke with a lot of coppers and the stuff some had seen, when recounted would have a 20 plus year experienced big tough copper welling up as they spoke about it.
My stepdad recounts a tale from early in his career of borrowing a bucket and brush from a nearby pub to clean up after a fatal where a man’s head had been run over by a truck. Total respect for the folks having to deal with stuff like this and an interesting thread in understanding just what happens these days after a serious collision. Pedro25 said:
I've no idea what happened on the M1 last night J14, Northbound closed, Southbound closed from J15, radio said Air Ambulance was at the scene, I left Cobham in Surrey at 15.30, walked into my house in Teesside at 23.00, it was frustrating and tiring but at least I made it home, someone or some others didn't. Road closures are put in place for obvious reasons and I assume they remain closed for as long as the investigators deem necessary.
We were caught in this going South. After going to a funeral of a friend's father on Tuesday, then later on Tuesday, the friend's brother having a seizure and being rushed to hospital (much respect to the the paramedics/ambulance crew who arrived in under 5 minutes), we were heading home on Wednesday afternoon. Neither my wife nor I really cared about the delay, instead just hoped that whoever was involved would be ok, and even if they were ok, they were still having a day a lot worse than we were.Likewise, at the time we had no idea what happened. The air ambulance did attend - we saw it land, and then take off around 20-30 minutes later I think. We were heading South and were stopped in the traffic maybe 200-300 metres away from the incident at around 2:15pm. Various emergency vehicles in attendance, and the motorway closed in both directions. I assume they closed the motorway, and all traffic had to leave at the junctions immediately before the incident, but as we'd already passed the previous junction, just had to wait. They opened a single lane about 2.5 hours later (about 4:45pm), I assume to clear the traffic backed up to the previous junction. When going past the scene, it looked like a small car transporter had hit the central barrier on the opposite (Northbound) carriageway.
According to this report the Southbound carriageway was partially opened around 7pm, and fully opened at 8:20pm. Northbound was re-opened at 10pm.
Turns out it was a car transporter - car he was carrying came loose, hit a bridge, and looks like caused him to crash into the central reservation. Sadly, he died at the scene.
As for the posters (not the OP) saying it takes too long, and they just should sweep up and open the road, I wonder how they would feel if a relative was killed by someone driving dangerously, but who got away with it due to a lack of evidence because the police just swept stuff up due to prioritising opening the road?
It takes as long as it takes. The police are not in the habit of closing down the road and extending the closure for fun.
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