Damage to hire vehicle that I didn’t cause
Discussion
Robertb said:
Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental principle of justice.
It’s up to them to prove it wasn’t damaged.
They need to produce date stamped photos of the car undamaged before you collected or it’s their word against yours.
They have the proof, he signed the form when he collected it.It’s up to them to prove it wasn’t damaged.
They need to produce date stamped photos of the car undamaged before you collected or it’s their word against yours.
CS27 said:
What can I do to prove it wasn’t me? Surely it’s up to them to prove it happened whilst I had the vehicle not the other way round?
From reading the terms and conditions of the "flexible car club" I assume it to be, those state that you are liable for any damage caused from the start of the rental period to the end of the rental period. After the rental period ends then any risk of damage from where it is parked is theirs not yours.Therefore it seems quite straightforward that the ball is in their court for them to prove that the damage occurred in the period of time you had it rented and not before or after, but if their modus operandi is to choose not to inspect vehicles at the beginning or end of hire - well I have no idea how they could prove that.
As far as I see it if it was taken to court, if they were holding you for damage that they say was caused during the time period of the rental they would need to demonstrate that -
1. The damage wasn't pre-existing, and since their business model is to not inspect the vehicles before the hire and your liability starts that they properly warned you to check the van all over before your rental started.
2. That the damage to the van was reported before the next rental started..
3. That the damage *was not* caused between the end of your rental (when your liability ended) and the reporting of the damage whenever that was.
They might be able to prove the first through the wording of the rental agreement and how you access the vehicle to start the hire, and they might be able to prove the second from timing of the report of the damage.
However if the van was parked in a public area and there was any amount of time between the end of your hire and the discovery of the damage, then frankly I cannot see any way that they can prove the negative that the damage *wasn't* caused after your rental period ended.
They cannot simply assume the damage was caused during your hire, they have to prove it was, and their choice of business operation makes that virtually impossible for them to do.
I've had this several times as I used to hire every week for over 7 years.
If you state that they had the opportunity to inspect when you returned and they declined or failed too and you're confident it was damage free at that point then it could have only happend post return.
I've never had a successful charge made against me citing the above.
This was between Hertz and Enterprise, the one time I knowingly did damage a car, I pointed it out to them on return and they said it was within their acceptable range of damage and never charged me.
If you state that they had the opportunity to inspect when you returned and they declined or failed too and you're confident it was damage free at that point then it could have only happend post return.
I've never had a successful charge made against me citing the above.
This was between Hertz and Enterprise, the one time I knowingly did damage a car, I pointed it out to them on return and they said it was within their acceptable range of damage and never charged me.
the-norseman said:
CoreyDog said:
Cancel the card? Perhaps you’ve lost it?
If they get the money first, you’ve got a fight on your hands, if they can’t get the money, the fight is on them.
Yep tell your CC company you lost the car and need a new one. If they get the money first, you’ve got a fight on your hands, if they can’t get the money, the fight is on them.
Sounds to me like the van hasn't been hired out since, but a staff member has borrowed it and damaged it and is now trying to look for a scapegoat.
Otherwise people would do exactly this after causing deliberate damage (taking cars on track days, etc)
A hire company that measures itself in cycles per second?
I had no end of annoyance with them when I hired a van-by-the-hour from outside a DIY shed. I was stood by the van, waiting, and they didn't send me the code until some time into my rental period after I chased the with a phonecall. When I returned the van after having had it for a little less than my rental period tried to charge me for late return. Took several emails and phone calls to get sorted (with them, directly) and what is infuriating is that the logic of "I rented for x hours, I had the van for less than X hours after you sent the code" fell on deaf ears, what seemed to get them was "your T&Cs make no sense if you actually read them".
So, read the T&C's and see if that helps. Hint: you might find they have just cut and pasted ones for a different country, even though they are in English.
I had no end of annoyance with them when I hired a van-by-the-hour from outside a DIY shed. I was stood by the van, waiting, and they didn't send me the code until some time into my rental period after I chased the with a phonecall. When I returned the van after having had it for a little less than my rental period tried to charge me for late return. Took several emails and phone calls to get sorted (with them, directly) and what is infuriating is that the logic of "I rented for x hours, I had the van for less than X hours after you sent the code" fell on deaf ears, what seemed to get them was "your T&Cs make no sense if you actually read them".
So, read the T&C's and see if that helps. Hint: you might find they have just cut and pasted ones for a different country, even though they are in English.
FMOB said:
This shows the importance of taking pics at the time of collection and return. I think you are on the hook for the excess as you don't have any proof showing condition on return.
Has it been confirmed that the vehicle has been rented out subsequent to your use? Do they have any pics of the alleged damage when they collected it?
I get the feeling they will have an excess payment out of you and subsequent renters based on lack of evidence and make 1 insurance claim. If they were being fair they would make all renter's pay a share of the excess but they won't look a gift horse in the mouth.
That must be illegal, isn’t it? I realise we’d never know even if they did, but charging multiple hirers for the same damage can’t be lawful surely?Has it been confirmed that the vehicle has been rented out subsequent to your use? Do they have any pics of the alleged damage when they collected it?
I get the feeling they will have an excess payment out of you and subsequent renters based on lack of evidence and make 1 insurance claim. If they were being fair they would make all renter's pay a share of the excess but they won't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Southerner said:
That must be illegal, isn’t it? I realise we’d never know even if they did, but charging multiple hirers for the same damage can’t be lawful surely?
I thought it was well known that they do this, as well as never doing the repairs that they have charged for before they sell the vehicles on.I used to hire cars a lot. One time I put an engine in the boot i was moving and dinked the boot lid with the engine crane as I was reversing.
So I got it repaired to avoid the minimum £1000 or whatever it was as it was quite a hefty scrape.
Upon return, the guy inspected it, walked round the vehicle and stopped at the boot lid. Damn, thought I'd been sprung.
He turned to me and said "where's the damage that was on the boot lid"
FFS...
So I got it repaired to avoid the minimum £1000 or whatever it was as it was quite a hefty scrape.
Upon return, the guy inspected it, walked round the vehicle and stopped at the boot lid. Damn, thought I'd been sprung.
He turned to me and said "where's the damage that was on the boot lid"
FFS...
Dig your heels in. Potentially left yourself open by not getting a good inspection of the van when you collected it but can argue the same of them when you've returned it. As stated above, hammer home the point on the amount of time between your returning it and the damage being found.
Had a similar issue with a van but it was hired by my work who had a litlte more weight behind them to tell them to jog on.We now have an account with Enterprise who send us all sorts of bangers, beaten up, bulbs out, no Adblue etc.
Had a similar issue with a van but it was hired by my work who had a litlte more weight behind them to tell them to jog on.We now have an account with Enterprise who send us all sorts of bangers, beaten up, bulbs out, no Adblue etc.
AceRockatansky said:
I used to hire cars a lot. One time I put an engine in the boot i was moving and dinked the boot lid with the engine crane as I was reversing.
So I got it repaired to avoid the minimum £1000 or whatever it was as it was quite a hefty scrape.
Upon return, the guy inspected it, walked round the vehicle and stopped at the boot lid. Damn, thought I'd been sprung.
He turned to me and said "where's the damage that was on the boot lid"
FFS...
So I got it repaired to avoid the minimum £1000 or whatever it was as it was quite a hefty scrape.
Upon return, the guy inspected it, walked round the vehicle and stopped at the boot lid. Damn, thought I'd been sprung.
He turned to me and said "where's the damage that was on the boot lid"
FFS...
AceRockatansky said:
I used to hire cars a lot. One time I put an engine in the boot i was moving and dinked the boot lid with the engine crane as I was reversing.
So I got it repaired to avoid the minimum £1000 or whatever it was as it was quite a hefty scrape.
Upon return, the guy inspected it, walked round the vehicle and stopped at the boot lid. Damn, thought I'd been sprung.
He turned to me and said "where's the damage that was on the boot lid"
FFS...
My cousin had an 'issue' with a hire van.So I got it repaired to avoid the minimum £1000 or whatever it was as it was quite a hefty scrape.
Upon return, the guy inspected it, walked round the vehicle and stopped at the boot lid. Damn, thought I'd been sprung.
He turned to me and said "where's the damage that was on the boot lid"
FFS...
She had completed her law degree and just started her (trainee) solicitors job/articles, fairly close to her parents. She put her furniture in storage and moved into her parents house for a couple of months. Once she was established in her new job she decided to rent a place with a friend.
Moving day. She hired a 'Luton' type box van and, with her friend/flatmate drove to the storage facility. After loading, on the way out, she hit a 8 foot high security camera, knocking it off it's mounting but fortunately with no visible damage to the van.
She drove to her parents, in order to pick up her more personal stuff and did exactly the same as she had done in the storage facility - misjudging just how high a box van is...... Only this time the above cabin section 'took out' her parents porch, breaking windows, dislodging tiles and bricks and stoving in the above cabin 'box'. Ooops!
The next day she returned the van, knowing she had lost her deposit.
The owner of the van hire place was a laconic rather sour individual and Debbie said to him. "I'm so sorry..."
He just shrugged and said "That's life"
Debbie said "You know, you are taking this so well, I thought you'd be shouting at me and threatening all sorts."
And the guy said. "Well that the thing in the van hire business. You have no accidents/claims for months and then you have a spate of them. Only yesterday, some 't
t' in one of our vans crashed into a security camera...... thing is, apparently, according to the storage company, the driver just got out of the van in full view of the damaged camera, stared right into the lens, got back into the van and drove off. What a twonker!And Debbie had to say "Yes that was me, as well!"
As someone who uses quite a few hire vehicles, it's how they make money.
Several times they've tried to claim the tank wasn't returned full, it always was.
Europcar sent me pictures of a damaged tire after I'd returned it, the car had been moved from where I'd left it, photo evidence, case closed.
They are trying it on and have no case, you just have to fight it.
Several times they've tried to claim the tank wasn't returned full, it always was.
Europcar sent me pictures of a damaged tire after I'd returned it, the car had been moved from where I'd left it, photo evidence, case closed.
They are trying it on and have no case, you just have to fight it.
Ugh. I hate having any sort of interaction with hire companies for this exact reason. Every other business in existence has to prove loss to extract money from you, this lot just sneak it with credit card holds and the like, and then YOU have to fight them to get it back!
I always take extensive photos before and after, have excess protection etc etc but they ALWAYS find a way to get you!
One particular company has scammed us every time we use them
-Spain: charged me for unreported puncture, 2 days off hire etc when I’d told them about it at the desk and, luckily, got a chit. Weeks to resolve.
-South Africa. Filled the car at the petrol station at the fricking airport. Stung us for about £15 in fuel and service fees after managing to squeeze another 500ml in it!
-America just gone. Several times: Surreptitously charged for tank of prepaid fuel and also various other shenanigans. Despite agreeing to still haven’t refunded the £135 and chargeback in process.
Safe to say, however competitive and attractive their next deal is, we won’t be back!
I always take extensive photos before and after, have excess protection etc etc but they ALWAYS find a way to get you!
One particular company has scammed us every time we use them
-Spain: charged me for unreported puncture, 2 days off hire etc when I’d told them about it at the desk and, luckily, got a chit. Weeks to resolve.
-South Africa. Filled the car at the petrol station at the fricking airport. Stung us for about £15 in fuel and service fees after managing to squeeze another 500ml in it!
-America just gone. Several times: Surreptitously charged for tank of prepaid fuel and also various other shenanigans. Despite agreeing to still haven’t refunded the £135 and chargeback in process.
Safe to say, however competitive and attractive their next deal is, we won’t be back!
I hired an Enterprise van to move household items from South East England to North Wales. It was a brand new van. I was asked to if I wanted damage excess, I declined. They went over the van before, and went over the van after (the guy had a credit card sized plastic which also had a circular hole, these were both used as gauges for damage). No damage on return. All fine. No issues and a nice driving van.
There are some good tales and processes in the hire car business (Granted, it was about 8 years ago).
There are some good tales and processes in the hire car business (Granted, it was about 8 years ago).
UPDATE:
Thanks for the input from some of the replies in here.
They carried on badgering me by email but completely ignored my argument. They then charged my card £1,000 and as soon as that happened I raised a dispute with AMEX and supplied my evidence. I couldn’t prove the vehicle was undamaged when I gave it back but I did weirdly have a picture of the van 2 hours before I gave it back when taking a photo of my new house. Anyway, they didn’t have any proof that it was damaged until a week after I returned it anyway.
AMEX found in my favour within 48 hours and cancelled the payment. Result!
I’ve since hired a couple of cars on holiday and made sure I took full videos before and after and will continue to do so going forward.
Thanks for the input from some of the replies in here.
They carried on badgering me by email but completely ignored my argument. They then charged my card £1,000 and as soon as that happened I raised a dispute with AMEX and supplied my evidence. I couldn’t prove the vehicle was undamaged when I gave it back but I did weirdly have a picture of the van 2 hours before I gave it back when taking a photo of my new house. Anyway, they didn’t have any proof that it was damaged until a week after I returned it anyway.
AMEX found in my favour within 48 hours and cancelled the payment. Result!
I’ve since hired a couple of cars on holiday and made sure I took full videos before and after and will continue to do so going forward.
119 said:
Robertb said:
Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental principle of justice.
It’s up to them to prove it wasn’t damaged.
They need to produce date stamped photos of the car undamaged before you collected or it’s their word against yours.
They have the proof, he signed the form when he collected it.It’s up to them to prove it wasn’t damaged.
They need to produce date stamped photos of the car undamaged before you collected or it’s their word against yours.
With the car club you don’t sign anything before or after hire, you literally reserve it in an app, open it using the app and then enter a PIN code to get the keys out of the glovebox.
When returning you just park it up.
I forgot to say in my original post, I think anyway, I hired another one from them 2 weeks later but before I had received the original email to say there was a problem, which I had no issues with whatseoever, but it would have been pretty ballsy of me to destroy one of their vans and then hire another one shortly afterwards.
CS27 said:
UPDATE:
Thanks for the input from some of the replies in here.
They carried on badgering me by email but completely ignored my argument. They then charged my card £1,000 and as soon as that happened I raised a dispute with AMEX and supplied my evidence. I couldn’t prove the vehicle was undamaged when I gave it back but I did weirdly have a picture of the van 2 hours before I gave it back when taking a photo of my new house. Anyway, they didn’t have any proof that it was damaged until a week after I returned it anyway.
AMEX found in my favour within 48 hours and cancelled the payment. Result!
I’ve since hired a couple of cars on holiday and made sure I took full videos before and after and will continue to do so going forward.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if you book using your AMEX card they cover you anyway.Thanks for the input from some of the replies in here.
They carried on badgering me by email but completely ignored my argument. They then charged my card £1,000 and as soon as that happened I raised a dispute with AMEX and supplied my evidence. I couldn’t prove the vehicle was undamaged when I gave it back but I did weirdly have a picture of the van 2 hours before I gave it back when taking a photo of my new house. Anyway, they didn’t have any proof that it was damaged until a week after I returned it anyway.
AMEX found in my favour within 48 hours and cancelled the payment. Result!
I’ve since hired a couple of cars on holiday and made sure I took full videos before and after and will continue to do so going forward.
the-norseman said:
CoreyDog said:
Cancel the card? Perhaps you’ve lost it?
If they get the money first, you’ve got a fight on your hands, if they can’t get the money, the fight is on them.
Yep tell your CC company you lost the car and need a new one. If they get the money first, you’ve got a fight on your hands, if they can’t get the money, the fight is on them.
Sounds to me like the van hasn't been hired out since, but a staff member has borrowed it and damaged it and is now trying to look for a scapegoat.
It's still a card account. You can't just say you have a lost card and no pre-authorised charges can go against it.
OP - ignore this advice, it's incorrect.
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