Farewell sweet clean license
Discussion
Sorry for the lack of response from me on this, I left my laptop powersupply in my studio and the battery died. At parent's for a visit so nabbed the chance.
Clarification on 'facts':
86 on a single carriageway (A83), weather not perfect but not bad, I was actually slowing down gradually due to the dropping temperature.
My speed was slower than it has been in the dry, this is a very straight well surfaced section of road with good visibility off the road.
The officers stated that they did not consider my driving dangerous, however they warned me that due to a new zero tolerance approach to speeding it was possible that the sherrif may push for careless or danerous driving. I do not think the case would have anything to be based on but when is evidence necessary for road policy just now.
I am a bit surprised by the measured speed, i was not pushing on, the only time I will have a play is in slower sections of road, I am not that brave tbh.
They did state that it was in my benefit that they would ignore the speed i was doing as they caught up to me.
Still find it a touch amusing that when i spotted them as Police behind me I moved as close to the nearside as possible and eased off a touch to let them pass easier.
Reason I am really fed up is that I was actually havin a really good drive, I had spotted a couple of potential hazards very early and taken appropriate action, my car control had been really smooth and everything felt good.
After i was stopped my drivin was rubbish, I made so many mistakes and spent half my time watchin the speedo. driving at or around 60 on the A83 is very awkward.
I make an active effort and contribution to road safety every time I drive and am now bein punished yet I see awful drivin everyday but nothin done about it. Will wait and see what the letter brings. If it is 3 points then fair enough but 6 points for this?
Clarification on 'facts':
86 on a single carriageway (A83), weather not perfect but not bad, I was actually slowing down gradually due to the dropping temperature.
My speed was slower than it has been in the dry, this is a very straight well surfaced section of road with good visibility off the road.
The officers stated that they did not consider my driving dangerous, however they warned me that due to a new zero tolerance approach to speeding it was possible that the sherrif may push for careless or danerous driving. I do not think the case would have anything to be based on but when is evidence necessary for road policy just now.
I am a bit surprised by the measured speed, i was not pushing on, the only time I will have a play is in slower sections of road, I am not that brave tbh.
They did state that it was in my benefit that they would ignore the speed i was doing as they caught up to me.
Still find it a touch amusing that when i spotted them as Police behind me I moved as close to the nearside as possible and eased off a touch to let them pass easier.
Reason I am really fed up is that I was actually havin a really good drive, I had spotted a couple of potential hazards very early and taken appropriate action, my car control had been really smooth and everything felt good.
After i was stopped my drivin was rubbish, I made so many mistakes and spent half my time watchin the speedo. driving at or around 60 on the A83 is very awkward.
I make an active effort and contribution to road safety every time I drive and am now bein punished yet I see awful drivin everyday but nothin done about it. Will wait and see what the letter brings. If it is 3 points then fair enough but 6 points for this?
Please don't talk about the 'Sherriff' Keith, it conjures up images of some fat sweaty bloke in a cowboy hat eating doughnuts in front of a large fan in a Louisiana office.......
If the circumstances were as you describe then i would certainly say 6 points is harsh. That's half a licence for goodness sake! 3 points, well at least you'll take it on the chin and just crack on without being bitter and twisted. These things happen, who knows, your observation may improve because of this (NOT taking the piss). I must admit i've been very lucky over the years to avoid points. Let's just say i *ahem* enjoy 'making progress' from time to time. I won't slag off the policy of that Force, i don't know enough about it and i don't want to get myself into trouble.....
Please let us know the outcome anyway, all the best mate,
HW
If the circumstances were as you describe then i would certainly say 6 points is harsh. That's half a licence for goodness sake! 3 points, well at least you'll take it on the chin and just crack on without being bitter and twisted. These things happen, who knows, your observation may improve because of this (NOT taking the piss). I must admit i've been very lucky over the years to avoid points. Let's just say i *ahem* enjoy 'making progress' from time to time. I won't slag off the policy of that Force, i don't know enough about it and i don't want to get myself into trouble.....
Please let us know the outcome anyway, all the best mate,
HW
KB - sorry to hear your news mate.
I got pulled on the M20 on the way to Le Mans last year (indicated 94.6mph, beautiful sunny day, early morning, very few other cars) and it really knocked me sideways. Didn't help that they ran this bloody awful 'good cop bad cop' routine.
They were the tiniest spot in my rear view mirror before they pulled me (electronic timing thingy between gantries was my downfall).
I spent most of LM knotted up inside, worried that it would be more than three points (it wasn't), worried that I'd end up going to court (I didn't) and have the book thrown at me (it wasn't).
It's certainly changed the way I drive; I don't want to be sat in the back of a battenberg again!
I got pulled on the M20 on the way to Le Mans last year (indicated 94.6mph, beautiful sunny day, early morning, very few other cars) and it really knocked me sideways. Didn't help that they ran this bloody awful 'good cop bad cop' routine.
They were the tiniest spot in my rear view mirror before they pulled me (electronic timing thingy between gantries was my downfall).
I spent most of LM knotted up inside, worried that it would be more than three points (it wasn't), worried that I'd end up going to court (I didn't) and have the book thrown at me (it wasn't).
It's certainly changed the way I drive; I don't want to be sat in the back of a battenberg again!
Update to the tale.
Letter has arrived today relating to the pull mentioned at the start of thread. haven't seen it with own eyes yet as it had to go to my parents address.
Letter form Sherrif court basicly states that being charged with some rule to do with 'temporary'? speed limit violation of 86 in a 60 limit.
Carries maximum of £1000 and 6 points however on advice willing to offer conditional fixed penalty of 3 points and £60 fine.
So not as bad as could be but still a bit disillusioned with it all. After checking the markings and finding out where the trafpol car was sitting i think it is highly unlikely an accurate reading could be taken.
the little layby is partially obscured if you are travelling south (as i was) by trees and the start of the speed trap markings are about 30-40 metres from that spot and finish about 200m + up the hill. To watch a car pass these points and hit a stopwatch accuratley is a bit tricky i would have thought especially as we are talking small blocks on the road, not the big lines you see at scamera locations.
If it had been 6 points i would have gathered pics and such like and contested but as it is 'only' 3 points i will grab it.
Just wish they would do more to stop all the bad driving on these roads, getting worse everyday with more tourists coming in.
Still considering future options.
Letter has arrived today relating to the pull mentioned at the start of thread. haven't seen it with own eyes yet as it had to go to my parents address.
Letter form Sherrif court basicly states that being charged with some rule to do with 'temporary'? speed limit violation of 86 in a 60 limit.
Carries maximum of £1000 and 6 points however on advice willing to offer conditional fixed penalty of 3 points and £60 fine.
So not as bad as could be but still a bit disillusioned with it all. After checking the markings and finding out where the trafpol car was sitting i think it is highly unlikely an accurate reading could be taken.
the little layby is partially obscured if you are travelling south (as i was) by trees and the start of the speed trap markings are about 30-40 metres from that spot and finish about 200m + up the hill. To watch a car pass these points and hit a stopwatch accuratley is a bit tricky i would have thought especially as we are talking small blocks on the road, not the big lines you see at scamera locations.
If it had been 6 points i would have gathered pics and such like and contested but as it is 'only' 3 points i will grab it.
Just wish they would do more to stop all the bad driving on these roads, getting worse everyday with more tourists coming in.
Still considering future options.
Yugguy said:
So you're going to have 3 points on your licence and you're now going to give up driving? Bit of an over-reaction don't you think? The world and his wife have 3 points these days and the only one adversely affected by your giving up driving is yourself.
not the points, the wake up call that even though the roads i drive on hav a fair number of trafpol they are being ordered to sit in laybys setting up speed traps when there is some v.bad driving going on. Don't know if i want to be part of that scene that is all.
i can be quite strongly principled at times and if the attitude to our roads does not improve i may just step away. i put a lot of effort into my driving yet am punished when every time i am on the road i see a lot of mediocre to v.dangerous behaviour slip by.
KB,
Just caught this thread, and a few things spring to mind.
1) In the current climate, I am guessing the officers concerned actively mentioned that your driving was otherwise good - 3pts for that is a very good result, you should, as far as you can, be happy for that.
2) I am the same as you (very principled, get rather riled at all the bad driving I see, clean license for the moment...), but I don't think I could give up driving - it's in my blood, I enjoy it so much. And I wouldn't suggest you do, either - all you will do is bring the average standard of driving on the roads down. And inconvenience yourself and your family/friends.
3) Your posts sound very negative. Not to say I expect a positive thread about 'been caught speeding', but the words sound out-of-proportion, and your reactions do too. Might be worth sitting down with someone (close friend, wife/partner, parent etc...), and just talking about stuff. Have been nibbled by Churchill's 'black dog' myself a couple of times, and you don't notice it until it's almost too late...best way of dealing with things is not to let them get on top of you.
(Hope that doesn't sound patronising - apologies if it does!)
Take the points, then go for a drive on a sunny day. Don't do anything different to what you did that day - i.e. get back in the saddle ASAP.
CHeers,
M.
Just caught this thread, and a few things spring to mind.
1) In the current climate, I am guessing the officers concerned actively mentioned that your driving was otherwise good - 3pts for that is a very good result, you should, as far as you can, be happy for that.
2) I am the same as you (very principled, get rather riled at all the bad driving I see, clean license for the moment...), but I don't think I could give up driving - it's in my blood, I enjoy it so much. And I wouldn't suggest you do, either - all you will do is bring the average standard of driving on the roads down. And inconvenience yourself and your family/friends.
3) Your posts sound very negative. Not to say I expect a positive thread about 'been caught speeding', but the words sound out-of-proportion, and your reactions do too. Might be worth sitting down with someone (close friend, wife/partner, parent etc...), and just talking about stuff. Have been nibbled by Churchill's 'black dog' myself a couple of times, and you don't notice it until it's almost too late...best way of dealing with things is not to let them get on top of you.
(Hope that doesn't sound patronising - apologies if it does!)
Take the points, then go for a drive on a sunny day. Don't do anything different to what you did that day - i.e. get back in the saddle ASAP.
CHeers,
M.
Plotloss said:
Interesting, seems they are reluctant to fill up the courts with speeders.
With this and someone else getting a FPN for 99 in a 70 it seems pragmatism is the order of the day.
Easy and efficient money, isn't it. Why waste Bib's time in court when he can be out on further tax collecting duties.
mybrainhurts said:
How does Enlish law interact with Scottish law..?
If there is a link, remember two English Courts have held that 150mph is not dangerous driving.
OK, to break this down:
you're talking about precedents (I really must be in 'Bank Holiday Mode', because I just typed 'presidents'). In English Law higher courts set precedents for lower ones, so the decisions of the House of Lords set the tone for the Court of Appeal, the High Court and the Magistrates Courts. The Court of Appeal sets the tone for the High Court and the Magistrates Courts. Decisions in the High Court only act as a guideline for other High Court cases (one case is not 'rated higher' than the other). High Court judges will not set out to deviate from another judge's decision - it's just not the done thing. They will differentiate the case they're hearing from a previous one, though. It is for the Appellate Courts to decide if a High Court judge got it wrong. This is the basis of precedent or 'judge-made' law.
Now, the Scottish Legal system is not something I know vast amounts about because it is different to the English system. The House of Lords is the Appellate Court for Scotland and so any case law from the HoL must be used. I'm not too sure about case law from the CoA. When it comes to case law from the HC this will not be binding.
However, there are many instances of American law being used as a basis for argument in English cases so I can't see a reason for an English case not being used for a basis of argument in a Scottish case. It will not be binding ... merely instructive, in the same way that acedemic argument can be.
For 86mph on a dual carriageway (70 limit) you can expect 3 points. This being Scotland you might well expect a fine of up to £250. If the road in question was a 60 limit, you can expect a similar fine and 6 points.
Sorry. (I've been there - I got £250 and 6 points).
miniandy said:
Where on the A83 was this Keith?
I was out yesterday for a run and spotted 2 Trafpol with their gun (no hi-vis) tucked up a side road, but that was in Tarbert. Also spotted a marked BM at the rest and be thankful, but thankfully it was going the other way!
It was the marked BM about 5 miles after 'the rest' at the junction for Dunoon. I have also spotted them doing the gun with no hi-vis vests and it was about 10pm in february so pitch black. had the gun on me but i had slowed way down as i could see something moving and an occasional glint therefore feared it may have been a deer
mybrainhurts said:
How does Enlish law interact with Scottish law..?
If there is a link, remember two English Courts have held that 150mph is not dangerous driving.
Scottish law is more in line with old European (Roman) law, the law is set and less grey area, sometimes a good thing. To set a case precedent i believe the law chnge scenario has to be done out of court and seperate from case.
much better for record contracts usually!
to clarify the sherriff court offered 3 points and £60 fine, it does suggest in the letter this was based on advice of reporting officer.
KB_S1 said:
It was the marked BM about 5 miles after 'the rest' at the junction for Dunoon. I have also spotted them doing the gun with no hi-vis vests
Ah. Is that on the very long, open, downhill and safe straight bit we're talking about?
I thought they had to wear hi-vis when it was getting dark...
bryan35 said:
86 in a 60?, thought you were going to say 130 in a 60.
Jesus, the road I drive to work I've been clogging 90+ in a 60 almost everyday for the last 4 years. - bad old me.
Exactly, I too thought he was going to saya speed over warp factor 10!
My god, on a clear dry motorway or DC with lots of space is 86 that bad.... I say Hang the 80% of drivers that I see early in the morning doing that speed commuting to work....
6 points! a BAN! FFS this country needs to get a grip.
>> Edited by polus on Saturday 29th April 19:27
polus said:
My god, on a clear dry motorway or DC with lots of space is 86 that bad.... I say Hang the 80% of drivers that I see early in the morning doing that speed commuting to work....
6 points! a BAN! FFS this country needs to get a grip.
Problem is, this was a single carriageway 'A' road, not a dual carriageway. He might well have got 6 points - it has been known, even on this forum, in similar circumstances.
mybrainhurts said:
How does Enlish law interact with Scottish law..?
If there is a link, remember two English Courts have held that 150mph is not dangerous driving.
They aren't a precedent though on a point of law, they are not a binding decision for other courts & don't create "case law". Dangerous driving will be on how the court view the evidence in that individual case, rulings of other courts will have no effect on that decision.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 29th April 23:21
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