RE: Can they catch you using sound?
Discussion
I heard this on Radio 5 on Sunday nights "Up all Night" programme....
Obviously it's come from U.S. military technology and they're looking for new markets..It sems they can even tell "how many cylinders" and "how hard the engine" is working (load)..
Who else in these days of Murderers, Rapists, Drug trafficers, White Collar Crime, Con Merchants, Burlars, Car Thieves, People trafficers, Vandals, Illegal Imagrants, Feral Youths..Etc is there to target? ...........
Why........Public Enemy No.1 of course!!!
That BASTARD who drives at 5-10 mph over an arbitary 70 mph limit (imposed by a non-driving Gov transport minister in the '60's!! FFS!) ..... When cars were almost "prehistoric" and took 1/2 mile to stop!..... (I know! I drove 'em!)....
Local Elections next week is it?........
Obviously it's come from U.S. military technology and they're looking for new markets..It sems they can even tell "how many cylinders" and "how hard the engine" is working (load)..
Who else in these days of Murderers, Rapists, Drug trafficers, White Collar Crime, Con Merchants, Burlars, Car Thieves, People trafficers, Vandals, Illegal Imagrants, Feral Youths..Etc is there to target? ...........
Why........Public Enemy No.1 of course!!!
That BASTARD who drives at 5-10 mph over an arbitary 70 mph limit (imposed by a non-driving Gov transport minister in the '60's!! FFS!) ..... When cars were almost "prehistoric" and took 1/2 mile to stop!..... (I know! I drove 'em!)....
Local Elections next week is it?........
vipers said:
As a matter on interest, what is Cardington Trined Traffic Police, thats a new one on me.
Cardington is the Driving Standards Agency main training establishment which has always set/tested to the highest standards. The police traffic officers were always trained by people who had attended and trained at Cardington. This is happening less and less and is one of the reasons why our world leading traffic police system is becoming less effective.
smeggy said:
Chaps, just found this:
www.freshpatents.com/Truck-acoustic-data-analyzer-system-dt20060223ptan20060037400.php
>> Edited by smeggy on Tuesday 25th April 23:30
Appears to be a audio version of a radar gun. Simply tells you what speed the car (or 32 in every 33) is doing. What's the advantage over a gatso hiding behind a road sign?
pdV6 said:
It uses knowledge about the type of engine
And how, exactly, would it know that?
Simple really, can YOU tell the difference between a VW Beetle and a Ford Anglia by ear alone?? I can, but would need a damn good 'puter to calculate speed....
so the question remains what effect dos a chavboy boomboxed Nova have on these spy machines???
>> Edited by JMGS4 on Wednesday 26th April 10:28
Have read the link.
Whereas claims are made for a role in undetectable speed enforcement and even wait-for-it….homeland security I think these are necessary taboo words to endow the rather flaky proposal with some sort of commercial potential.
It might have some applications in the US for truck monitoring for some specialised study/ research but the author states that engine speed was measured to an accuracy of 6% as compared with the engine tacho. The calculation of truck weight is stretching things a lot further requiring a lot of data about the ACTUAL truck, turbocharger fitted etc etc. There are far too many variables such as the temperature variation in speed of sound in air etc to turn this concept into an enforcement tool.
But we should not underestimate the SCPs, ACPO and the Home Office’s ability to buy dodgy American technology at enormous mark-up
Whereas claims are made for a role in undetectable speed enforcement and even wait-for-it….homeland security I think these are necessary taboo words to endow the rather flaky proposal with some sort of commercial potential.
It might have some applications in the US for truck monitoring for some specialised study/ research but the author states that engine speed was measured to an accuracy of 6% as compared with the engine tacho. The calculation of truck weight is stretching things a lot further requiring a lot of data about the ACTUAL truck, turbocharger fitted etc etc. There are far too many variables such as the temperature variation in speed of sound in air etc to turn this concept into an enforcement tool.
But we should not underestimate the SCPs, ACPO and the Home Office’s ability to buy dodgy American technology at enormous mark-up
I can a lot of scope for fun here.
Record the sounds of various cars on say a track day, then go to the new speed sound scam location and just sit there with your stereo full on triggering it.........
The silly t
ts cant think of anything better to do with their time that arse about trying to catch drivers who they keep telling us "we dont want to catch you"....Wankers.
Sound activated speed cameras....what a crock of old bollox. Bring em on, i will have loads of fun with these!
Record the sounds of various cars on say a track day, then go to the new speed sound scam location and just sit there with your stereo full on triggering it.........
The silly t
ts cant think of anything better to do with their time that arse about trying to catch drivers who they keep telling us "we dont want to catch you"....Wankers. Sound activated speed cameras....what a crock of old bollox. Bring em on, i will have loads of fun with these!
This is the doppler shift effect and is why a car makes a neeeeooooowwwww sound as it zooms past you!
Car engine emits a sound waves at a frequency, but because the car is moving towards you, the sound waves get squashed up (until you reach the speed of sound!) and sounds like a higher frequency. As the car drives away from you, the sound waves get stretched out and the frequency sounds lower. Just compare the two and you can work out the speed - irrespective of what engine revs(as long as it doesn't change too much during the sample period).
Still don't think it'll work well in practice..and I guess there'd still need to be a camera in the system to get some evidence!
Not a Geek...hopefully?
Car engine emits a sound waves at a frequency, but because the car is moving towards you, the sound waves get squashed up (until you reach the speed of sound!) and sounds like a higher frequency. As the car drives away from you, the sound waves get stretched out and the frequency sounds lower. Just compare the two and you can work out the speed - irrespective of what engine revs(as long as it doesn't change too much during the sample period).
Still don't think it'll work well in practice..and I guess there'd still need to be a camera in the system to get some evidence!
Not a Geek...hopefully?
Well, I read and reread the links and have to agree that on the face of it it seems completely mad... as it would be having been designed an developed by the worlds most paranoid nation.
However... in reality the deployment of it along with a simple digital based camera system to capture offending vehicles details is not beyond the realms of possibility if:
1. It uses microphones placed at known distances apart.
2. The sound recognition software i.e. the brains of the system, is accurate enough to be able to differentiate between individual vehicles as they pass through the array.
3. The camera system is triggered by a vehicle exceeding the speed limit between the two fixed microphones i.e. Speed=distance/time vis a vis SPECS, VASCAR etc
There's actually nothing that's really innovative here. If US Military experience has been used to develop the software, then it will be able to deal with multiple vehicles as each vehicle will have its own unique acoustic signature, produced by a combination of engine speed, engine wear, exhaust and induction acoustics, tyre noise and wear etc. In reality, the type of vehicle or at least the engine type may also be identified in some cases, but that stretches the issue a little. I think the press release has exagerated and/or misinterpreted the engine, gear sounds etc.
And if it's cheap to deploy and cheap to operate you can be sure that it will end up being used in either North Wales or Northants sooner or later.
Happy days!
However... in reality the deployment of it along with a simple digital based camera system to capture offending vehicles details is not beyond the realms of possibility if:
1. It uses microphones placed at known distances apart.
2. The sound recognition software i.e. the brains of the system, is accurate enough to be able to differentiate between individual vehicles as they pass through the array.
3. The camera system is triggered by a vehicle exceeding the speed limit between the two fixed microphones i.e. Speed=distance/time vis a vis SPECS, VASCAR etc
There's actually nothing that's really innovative here. If US Military experience has been used to develop the software, then it will be able to deal with multiple vehicles as each vehicle will have its own unique acoustic signature, produced by a combination of engine speed, engine wear, exhaust and induction acoustics, tyre noise and wear etc. In reality, the type of vehicle or at least the engine type may also be identified in some cases, but that stretches the issue a little. I think the press release has exagerated and/or misinterpreted the engine, gear sounds etc.
And if it's cheap to deploy and cheap to operate you can be sure that it will end up being used in either North Wales or Northants sooner or later.
Happy days!
Can't see this happening.
OK, Doppler Shift. The sound from an approaching vehicle differs from one receding, fine, no problem. But measuring Doppler Shift somewhat depends on a steady state. A vehicle accelerating or decelerating won't be in a steady state, and the engine tone will be changing anyway. Let's not even consider misfires, deliberate or otherwise, loud stereos, interference (other vehicles, airplanes). Drop a cog as you pass and boot it and this thing would think you just changed direction!
Use of the Doppler Effect in a military scenario for measuring speed of jets is on thing, but using the same techniques in an urban environment is a whole different ballgame. How would they construct a convincing legal argument that the sound being recorded at that instance emanated purely from what, where and how they claimed?
Bring it on. The number of getout's would be immense.
"Thats not a Doppler Shift, that's a hedgehog farting!"
OK, Doppler Shift. The sound from an approaching vehicle differs from one receding, fine, no problem. But measuring Doppler Shift somewhat depends on a steady state. A vehicle accelerating or decelerating won't be in a steady state, and the engine tone will be changing anyway. Let's not even consider misfires, deliberate or otherwise, loud stereos, interference (other vehicles, airplanes). Drop a cog as you pass and boot it and this thing would think you just changed direction!
Use of the Doppler Effect in a military scenario for measuring speed of jets is on thing, but using the same techniques in an urban environment is a whole different ballgame. How would they construct a convincing legal argument that the sound being recorded at that instance emanated purely from what, where and how they claimed?
Bring it on. The number of getout's would be immense.
"Thats not a Doppler Shift, that's a hedgehog farting!"
Here you go, from their own Patent application:
"The system determines if the motor vehicle is a truck by comparing the MAGNITUDE of the sound within a predetermined frequency band to a threshold level using a band-pass filter."
So it's going to get mightily screwed up with a Viper then!
And there's more:
"0033] As seen in FIG. 4, when examining all runs having a confidence level of approximately 30 or greater, a realistic truck speed was estimated on 32 out of 33 cases. Although the actual speeds are not known, this result is very encouraging."
So its accuracy is in fact unknown. The actual speeds were not recorded, but the software didn't say 300mph, so the result is "a likely speed".
Piffle.
"The system determines if the motor vehicle is a truck by comparing the MAGNITUDE of the sound within a predetermined frequency band to a threshold level using a band-pass filter."
So it's going to get mightily screwed up with a Viper then!
And there's more:
"0033] As seen in FIG. 4, when examining all runs having a confidence level of approximately 30 or greater, a realistic truck speed was estimated on 32 out of 33 cases. Although the actual speeds are not known, this result is very encouraging."
So its accuracy is in fact unknown. The actual speeds were not recorded, but the software didn't say 300mph, so the result is "a likely speed".
Piffle.
This technology may have an advantage to the Government in that it could be modified to record conversations in the vehicle as it passes. Anyone saying negative things about the New Labour project could then be arrested under the prevention of terrorism act.
I've mentioned on previous posts that I'd like to see a camera system developed that can monitor the activities of our Government. Although the thought of getting a flash when Prescott dropped his trousers does not appeal.
I've mentioned on previous posts that I'd like to see a camera system developed that can monitor the activities of our Government. Although the thought of getting a flash when Prescott dropped his trousers does not appeal.
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