So they do work then!

[Mr_annie_vxr]

Hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Like what had he done?

He shared speeding points so he could continue going to work.

[disclaimer: I may or may not be telling the truth and this may just be my internet persona telling porkies so do not use this as evidence against my father in any after the fact legal proceedings..]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Speed has to be measured by a device.

Only if the margins are so tight that the law is pointless, imo.

Video's like this one actually make me feel queasy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerYiPogw-0&mod...

If you can not tell that someone is driving dangerously by watching them, should they really be punished?
If the public had speed camera's there would not be one serving police officer with a driving license but they don't deserve that any more than we do.

Sharing speeding points has always been the offence of perverting the course of justice. Its not a new law.

Speeding is not about danger it about reducing the impact of a screw up. Its hard to stop a crash but you can legislate to reduce the outcome (speed limits).

[herewego]

Big Fat F'r said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Who they are and why they do it I do not know.

They do it to gain support for their own interests. Persuade everyone they are being 'picked' on, and it makes it easier to get support.

It's not these groups that surprise me, it's the ones that allow themselves to be taken in.

BFF

Edited by Big Fat F'r on Sunday 12th August 11:52

We're easy to take in. Just look at advertising.

[Big Fat F'r]

Hedders said:

If you can not tell that someone is driving dangerously by watching them, should they really be punished?

It all depends on whether or not you accept the premise that risk, and potential damage, and the inability to cope safely, rises as speed does.

If you do, then you want to act before someone is seen to be dangerous.

If you don't, then you only want to act at the point someone is dangerous.

You takes your pick.

BFF

[Hedders]

vonhosen said:

but the law is there to remind us of the need to be careful, to encourage us to be careful & to punish us where guilty of falling foul & those who are charged with enforcing it consider it necessary to on that occasion.

Thats my point, these laws are so pointless they are only enforced when the officer feels like it/ is having a bad day/ doesn't like the cut of your jib/ needs to hit an end of month target.

Surely a law should be enforced all the time if it is a good law?

Edited by Hedders on Sunday 12th August 12:36

[Mr_annie_vxr]

Hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Like what had he done?

He shared speeding points so he could continue going to work.

[disclaimer: I may or may not be telling the truth and this may just be my internet persona telling porkies so do not use this as evidence against my father in any after the fact legal proceedings..]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Speed has to be measured by a device.

Only if the margins are so tight that the law is pointless, imo.

Video's like this one actually make me feel queasy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerYiPogw-0&mod...

If you can not tell that someone is driving dangerously by watching them, should they really be punished?
If the public had speed camera's there would not be one serving police officer with a driving license but they don't deserve that any more than we do.

Police officers on duty can only speed when they have an exemption. My police car has a black box with gps link. At anytime I can be asked why I am travelling at x speed. They review the boxes and look at harsh braking, traction control activation, engine revs and map your journey to limits. If I exceed limits without justification I suffer the same penalties as anyone.

We are more closely monitored than you.

[vonhosen]

Hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Like what had he done?

He shared speeding points so he could continue going to work.

[disclaimer: I may or may not be telling the truth and this may just be my internet persona telling porkies so do not use this as evidence against my father in any after the fact legal proceedings..]

It's a surprise that giving somebody else your speeding points is perverting the course of justice, or that perverting the course of justice is an offence that has a maximum penalty that could involve imprisonment ?

hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Speed has to be measured by a device.

Only if the margins are so tight that the law is pointless, imo.

Video's like this one actually make me feel queasy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cerYiPogw-0&mod...

If you can not tell that someone is driving dangerously by watching them, should they really be punished?
If the public had speed camera's there would not be one serving police officer with a driving license but they don't deserve that any more than we do.

We have speed limits & if we are to have them we have to enforce them. If you don't enforce them there is absolutely no point in having them.
If we want to prosecute only when danger becomes present we don't need speed limits.
But we don't we want to limit the speed people travel at & we want to be able to take action to enforce that before danger becomes involved where they aren't being adhered to.

Any Police officer on or off duty are bound by the limits where they are not using an exemption. The same cameras that can catch you, can catch them. They are prosecuted where there is evidence to prosecute.

[streaky]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Hedders said:

Seeing as most of the population is now considered to be a criminal or atleast a suspect, i think more people than you might expect would be prepared to break laws these days.

I come from a fairly respectable background but i am constantly suprised by my families ever changing attitude to laws, and the people who make and enforce them.

Who considers them that? I don't. My colleagues I work with don't. I doubt any officer posting here thinks that either. The vocal minority with interests want you to think that and it makes a good media story but I know no police officer who think that anymore than the 120,000 active criminals are criminals. ...

In a speech to councillors in Flintshire, Chief Constable of North Wales and sometime APCO Head of Road Policing, Richard Brunstormfurher, branded drivers who get caught for speeding 3 times as 'dangerous criminals'.

Streaky

[Mr_annie_vxr]

Hedders said:

vonhosen said:

but the law is there to remind us of the need to be careful, to encourage us to be careful & to punish us where guilty of falling foul & those who are charged with enforcing it consider it necessary to on that occasion.

Thats my point, these laws are so pointless they are only enforced when the officer feels like it/ is having a bad day/ doesn't like the cut of your jib/ needs to hit an end of month target.

Surely a law should be enforced all the time if it is a good law?

Edited by Hedders on Sunday 12th August 12:36

Zero tolerence policing works.However it is expensive to do and it upsets 'normal' people more. Your suggesting police officers should not use discretion then? Thats a change from whats usually said on here.

[vonhosen]

Hedders said:

vonhosen said:

but the law is there to remind us of the need to be careful, to encourage us to be careful & to punish us where guilty of falling foul & those who are charged with enforcing it consider it necessary to on that occasion.

Thats my point, these laws are so pointless they are only enforced when the officer feels like it/ is having a bad day/ doesn't like the cut of your jib/ needs to hit an end of month target.

Surely a law should be enforced all the time if it is a good law?

No for many reasons.
You may decide to vary the action you take by degree, everyone isn't prosecuted to the full extent of the law (ie someone who does 71 on the motorway isn't treated the same as someone doing 142 in the same circumstances & neither should they be in my opinion).
Also there are the practicalities that if I were reporting someone for doing 71 in a 70, it may be taking away from any primary role I am tasked with whilst doing it, if speed enforcement isn't a primary tasking for me.

What I observe & let go is greatly influenced by my primary tasked role that day.

[Big Fat F'r]

streaky said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Hedders said:

Seeing as most of the population is now considered to be a criminal or atleast a suspect, i think more people than you might expect would be prepared to break laws these days.

I come from a fairly respectable background but i am constantly suprised by my families ever changing attitude to laws, and the people who make and enforce them.

Who considers them that? I don't. My colleagues I work with don't. I doubt any officer posting here thinks that either. The vocal minority with interests want you to think that and it makes a good media story but I know no police officer who think that anymore than the 120,000 active criminals are criminals. ...

In a speech to councillors in Flintshire, Chief Constable of North Wales and sometime APCO Head of Road Policing, Richard Brunstormfurher, branded drivers who get caught for speeding 3 times as 'dangerous criminals'.

Streaky

But that is not the 'Official Line' of the Government or ACPO. Other individuals have given a more relaxed view.

Do you accept his comment? Aren't you able to dismiss it as just his opinion, without it affecting you or your family.

BFF

[Hedders]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Sharing speeding points has always been the offence of perverting the course of justice. Its not a new law.

Speeding is not about danger it about reducing the impact of a screw up. Its hard to stop a crash but you can legislate to reduce the outcome (speed limits).

And my dad appreciates that. But when he was taught to drive, he was taught to be observant and use his own judgement and drive to the conditions etc. He was not taught to keep one eye on the speedo and the other eye on the bushes and bridges for camera vans and such like. He was taught that if he drives liek an idiot he will probably get in trouble.

That simply is not the way it works anymore. It took him a couple of years to realise that the road rules had changed around him and in those few years he got 15 points and never once got done at more than 15 mph over IIRC.

[vonhosen]

Hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Sharing speeding points has always been the offence of perverting the course of justice. Its not a new law.

Speeding is not about danger it about reducing the impact of a screw up. Its hard to stop a crash but you can legislate to reduce the outcome (speed limits).

And my dad appreciates that. But when he was taught to drive, he was taught to be observant and use his own judgement and drive to the conditions etc. He was not taught to keep one eye on the speedo and the other eye on the bushes and bridges for camera vans and such like. He was taught that if he drives liek an idiot he will probably get in trouble.

That simply is not the way it works anymore. It took him a couple of years to realise that the road rules had changed around him and in those few years he got 15 points and never once got done at more than 15 mph over IIRC.

But that's got nothing do with him being surprised that giving someone your points is PtCoJ & that it is potentially a custodial offence.

[Mr_annie_vxr]

Hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Sharing speeding points has always been the offence of perverting the course of justice. Its not a new law.

Speeding is not about danger it about reducing the impact of a screw up. Its hard to stop a crash but you can legislate to reduce the outcome (speed limits).

And my dad appreciates that. But when he was taught to drive, he was taught to be observant and use his own judgement and drive to the conditions etc. He was not taught to keep one eye on the speedo and the other eye on the bushes and bridges for camera vans and such like. He was taught that if he drives liek an idiot he will probably get in trouble.

That simply is not the way it works anymore. It took him a couple of years to realise that the road rules had changed around him and in those few years he got 15 points and never once got done at more than 15 mph over IIRC.

When your dad drove I'd suggest the roads were quieter. The test different. People had consideration towards others.

All driving tests you fail if you exceed the speed limit. I'm not one for being pro-speed enforcement but I understand the need for limits and they have been there for years in most cases.

As I said previously I don't issue tickets or summons normaly.

[oldsoak]

"If you can not tell that someone is driving dangerously by watching them, should they really be punished?"

Look at it from another perspective
If someone is driving (not dangerously)in excess of the posted limit... and someone else pulls out in front or steps in front of that vehicle...expecting to have ample time to cross the road/complete their manoeuvre had the vehicle been travelling at the posted limit, but ends up being run over or in collision with that vehicle...who is to blame there? The pedestrian/the driver of the other vehicle or the one who exceeded the limit?
Speed cameras (IMPO) are there to try and avoid such scenarios...to slow people down to within the posted limits. Those who don't abide by the limits especially where cameras are sited are the real danger to everyone (including themselves) on our roads.

[Big Fat F'r]

Hedders said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Sharing speeding points has always been the offence of perverting the course of justice. Its not a new law.

Speeding is not about danger it about reducing the impact of a screw up. Its hard to stop a crash but you can legislate to reduce the outcome (speed limits).

And my dad appreciates that. But when he was taught to drive, he was taught to be observant and use his own judgement and drive to the conditions etc. He was not taught to keep one eye on the speedo and the other eye on the bushes and bridges for camera vans and such like. He was taught that if he drives liek an idiot he will probably get in trouble.

That simply is not the way it works anymore. It took him a couple of years to realise that the road rules had changed around him and in those few years he got 15 points and never once got done at more than 15 mph over IIRC.

Not knowing you or your Dad, it's hard to know how old he is. But are you saying that when he was taught to drive, he was not taught to keep within the limits.

Also, beware that saying "only 15mph over the limits" makes an arbitrary number okay!

BFF

[Hedders]

vonhosen said:

But that's got nothing do with him being surprised that giving someone your points is PtCoJ & that it is potentially a custodial offence.

I guess it is because he saw the fines simply as a new form of tax as he didn't consider himself to be doing anything dangerous.

The government don't care if you get someone elese to pay your tax, so long as it is paid.

[vonhosen]

Hedders said:

vonhosen said:

But that's got nothing do with him being surprised that giving someone your points is PtCoJ & that it is potentially a custodial offence.

I guess it is because he saw the fines simply as a new form of tax as he didn't consider himself to be doing anything dangerous.

The government don't care if you get someone elese to pay your tax, so long as it is paid.

It doesn't matter who stumps up the money for the fine (I've signed the cheque for the other half's parking ticket, that's no offence) it's the points you can't give to someone else. But come on, he knew that could get him in trouble.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 12th August 13:11

[Hedders]

Big Fat F'r said:

Not knowing you or your Dad, it's hard to know how old he is. But are you saying that when he was taught to drive, he was not taught to keep within the limits.

Also, beware that saying "only 15mph over the limits" makes an arbitrary number okay!

BFF

When he learned to drive there was no speed limit on motorways for a start. Not that motorways are included in the driving test!

The type of cars he would have had when he was growing up probably were not capable of the speed limits in the first place, limits were there to catch people who were really going for it rather than those who had inadvertantly taken their eyes of the speedo for a second.

You are quite right about quoting figures though, it doesn't help my argument at all does it!

[Hedders]

vonhosen said:

Hedders said:

vonhosen said:

But that's got nothing do with him being surprised that giving someone your points is PtCoJ & that it is potentially a custodial offence.

I guess it is because he saw the fines simply as a new form of tax as he didn't consider himself to be doing anything dangerous.

The government don't care if you get someone elese to pay your tax, so long as it is paid.

It doesn't matter who stumps up the money for the fine (I've signed the cheque for the other half's parking ticket, that's no offence) it's the points you can't give to someone else. But come on, he knew that could get him in trouble.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 12th August 13:11

I honestly don't think he thought he could get in trouble for it. I concede that he knew it was 'wrong' but wrong in an 'oops i just crept over the speed limit' type of way rather than 'I just did something i could be put in prison for and potentially lose everything i have ever worked for'.

I find it hard to believe that any normal person would not do the same thing in order to protect their family, and that is why the law is wrong.

[Big Fat F'r]

Hedders said:

Big Fat F'r said:

Also, beware that saying "only 15mph over the limits" makes an arbitrary number okay!

BFF

You are quite right about quoting figures though, it doesn't help my argument at all does it!

It's a tad risky (a bit like speeding). I think you got away with it though.

BFF