Zero tolerance

[vonhosen]

XMG5 said:

vonhosen said:

XMG5 said:

Where do they get them all from. They always plead a lack of resources until it comes down to speed enforcement and then they come out of their offices to fall over each other in the name of "Road Safety".

When my son attended the end of school prom held at a local Country Club (used anually for the event) he got together with a few friends and hired a stretch limo for the journey there and back. It was usual for most of the attendees to hire them instead of taxis and private mini buses.

When they arrived at the entrance to the club's driveway they were stopped by a gaggle of Traffic BiB's who checked the number of passengers being carried in all the stratch limos'. If they found more than should've been carried they were ordered out and told to walk the rest of the way, in their ball gowns and tux's.

Now I know it is an offence to carry more passengers than the vehicle is designed for, Insurance implications and carrying passengers in a dangerous manner etc. BUT police resources to target such an event? It's a joke! Fish in a barrel time again!! Easy targets all the time.

Have you noticed how PCSOs are starting to populate the scenes of quite serious crimes?

Resources? Don't make me laugh. To be stuck with paperwork you have to get the offenders first, you never see evidence of BiB's on the street in order to detect the offenders and get the paperwork.

From my sources it's all about stats, real policing was killed off about 5 years ago. Tickets for this and tickets for that, Investigation? Wash your mouth out with soap. Perish the thought...Investigation...pah!! Now who's up for a bit of speed trapping? Don't all rush...form an orderly queue. Luvverly Jubbly.

Every station that I've worked at has ploughed money & resources into extra burglary, robbery, vehicle crime initiatives etc.
Do you know how many speeding initiatives they've run between them ?
A big fat zero.

Von, does the resources ploughed into vehicle crime initiatives include setting up civilian crime recorders who take the details over the phone, issue a provisional reference number (prior to a Crime Ref. No.) and all without any police involvement or attendance? TIC clear ups or no invetigation at all. That's a hell of an initiative. Who thinks that that is policing the problem.

Most initiatives shown by ACPO these days are squad based, small teams set aside to investigate specific crime genres. In fact our own CC a few years ago scoffed at the premise that the Bobby on the Beat was anything other than an outdated, worthless, over-rated and expensive waste of time in the fight against crime.

Strange then that a large % of high profile crimes currently receiving publicity are at street level. The very same streets that the police have deserted in favour of squads and Cameras (Speed Detection/Public CCTV). Someone's even invented the talking CCTV camera so that the civilian controller can issue verbals to those being observed, even doing away with the need for a copper's firm words of advice.

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

No I'm talking about proactive initiatives. Extra patrols & intelligence led targeting of offenders. I've worked on them.
Never ever (or any of my colleagues at the stations) asked to do targeted speed enforcement & money made available for that purpose.

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 31st August 16:12

[Mr_annie_vxr]

vonhosen said:

XMG5 said:

vonhosen said:

XMG5 said:

Where do they get them all from. They always plead a lack of resources until it comes down to speed enforcement and then they come out of their offices to fall over each other in the name of "Road Safety".

When my son attended the end of school prom held at a local Country Club (used anually for the event) he got together with a few friends and hired a stretch limo for the journey there and back. It was usual for most of the attendees to hire them instead of taxis and private mini buses.

When they arrived at the entrance to the club's driveway they were stopped by a gaggle of Traffic BiB's who checked the number of passengers being carried in all the stratch limos'. If they found more than should've been carried they were ordered out and told to walk the rest of the way, in their ball gowns and tux's.

Now I know it is an offence to carry more passengers than the vehicle is designed for, Insurance implications and carrying passengers in a dangerous manner etc. BUT police resources to target such an event? It's a joke! Fish in a barrel time again!! Easy targets all the time.

Have you noticed how PCSOs are starting to populate the scenes of quite serious crimes?

Resources? Don't make me laugh. To be stuck with paperwork you have to get the offenders first, you never see evidence of BiB's on the street in order to detect the offenders and get the paperwork.

From my sources it's all about stats, real policing was killed off about 5 years ago. Tickets for this and tickets for that, Investigation? Wash your mouth out with soap. Perish the thought...Investigation...pah!! Now who's up for a bit of speed trapping? Don't all rush...form an orderly queue. Luvverly Jubbly.

Every station that I've worked at has ploughed money & resources into extra burglary, robbery, vehicle crime initiatives etc.
Do you know how many speeding initiatives they've run between them ?
A big fat zero.

Von, does the resources ploughed into vehicle crime initiatives include setting up civilian crime recorders who take the details over the phone, issue a provisional reference number (prior to a Crime Ref. No.) and all without any police involvement or attendance? TIC clear ups or no invetigation at all. That's a hell of an initiative. Who thinks that that is policing the problem.

Most initiatives shown by ACPO these days are squad based, small teams set aside to investigate specific crime genres. In fact our own CC a few years ago scoffed at the premise that the Bobby on the Beat was anything other than an outdated, worthless, over-rated and expensive waste of time in the fight against crime.

Strange then that a large % of high profile crimes currently receiving publicity are at street level. The very same streets that the police have deserted in favour of squads and Cameras (Speed Detection/Public CCTV). Someone's even invented the talking CCTV camera so that the civilian controller can issue verbals to those being observed, even doing away with the need for a copper's firm words of advice.

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

No I'm talking about proactive initiatives. Extra patrols & intelligence led targeting of offenders. I've worked on them.
Never ever (or any of my colleagues at the stations) asked to do targeted speed enforcement & money made available for that purpose.

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 31st August 16:12

Actually it is the responsibility of society. They are your children doing this. The its not my problem/ responsibiity let someone else deal with it is why we are where we are. Lack or parental responibility, lack of self responsibility a selfish ill mannered attitude to life and to others property. We are where we are not because of the police. The police are now being left to pick up the pieces. We have become the first people that ever seem to say no to those criminals and scum in our society. Until society accepts its responsibilties and people realise they own thier own behaviour then nothing will change.

As for intiatives. Never done a speed one, never seen one done. Have worked many burglary/ car theft ops and have worked many many hours for free just to get a result.

[Chrispy Porker]

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

[Mr_annie_vxr]

[s2art]

Chrispy Porker said:

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

But hasnt this always been the case? The local village bobby would have been a part of the social support infrastructure as much as the keeper of the peace. No doubt in bygone times he would have clipped the ears of the local young scrotes on many an occasion. These days what are his alternatives?

[Mr_annie_vxr]

s2art said:

Chrispy Porker said:

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

But hasnt this always been the case? The local village bobby would have been a part of the social support infrastructure as much as the keeper of the peace. No doubt in bygone times he would have clipped the ears of the local young scrotes on many an occasion. These days what are his alternatives?

He may have done, society was different then. The lack of parental responsibility and social responisbility was nothing like today. We spend the vast majoirty of our time managing the lives of those who blame all but themselves for the position they are in. All the time we are doing this is time not spent doing what we should be doing. The police service is the the service that deals wih everything. Even complaints about the time the last train leaves a local station.

[s2art]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

s2art said:

Chrispy Porker said:

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

But hasnt this always been the case? The local village bobby would have been a part of the social support infrastructure as much as the keeper of the peace. No doubt in bygone times he would have clipped the ears of the local young scrotes on many an occasion. These days what are his alternatives?

He may have done, society was different then. The lack of parental responsibility and social responisbility was nothing like today. We spend the vast majoirty of our time managing the lives of those who blame all but themselves for the position they are in. All the time we are doing this is time not spent doing what we should be doing. The police service is the the service that deals wih everything. Even complaints about the time the last train leaves a local station.

I am not sure society was that different, certainly in parts of Liverpool when my dad was a plod (a long time ago, late 50's) the were plenty of feckless scrotes growing up without responsible parents. Or so he tells me.
And the police were doing exactlty the same then as now, with the same complaints.
Perhaps the real change is that to the law. Teachers used to have the power of in loco parentis, the police could, legitimately or not, clip the ears of a scrote. etc.

[fluffnik]

Zero tolerance of speed enforcement sounds good to me.

Lets purge a SCP per week!

[Brett928S2]

Hi

Let me tell you about the area my shop is in...

There is a local gang who KILLED a MOP ...group of them picked an arguement with him when he came out of a local shop late at night after buying milk and bread....

They all denied hitting him ...so no prosecution....and as far as I can see very little investigation...

I am the only local who is prepared to stand up to them,,,,so I regularly get bricks through my shop windows....response from police.....sorry sir would you like your crime number over phone.....they cannot even be bothered to visit and pat me on the head....

A group of this gang saw me in a local supermarket.....only around 6 of them but i knew what was coming.....so i had a chat with them....

Their version was I had the leader in a throat hold with his feet 6 inches off the floor....my version is my hand was on his chest restraining him...the supermakets cameras were behind me so i was blocking their view by coincidence

Want to guess who nearly got done for assault....

Correct me....

And my windows still get done on a regular basis....

We never see proper police around here....but we see a lot of the new kiddy toy police...in groups of 2 or 3 who never talk to anyone....just walk up and down to be seen i think....

I like the police but the restraints and targets that cause lack of policing are unbelieveable...

What would I do about it....the local gang that is ?

In a former life I would have signed out a 20 gauge and taken them out....all of them....without a thought

I wish the police could because society is getting so bad that one day people like me will lose our restraint ...and god help society then...

All the best Brett

[Mark V8]

The stoned chavs hurl abuse from the benches clutching their rolled-up duvets and Smirnoff.....
The Mk 3 Astra morons et al are handbraking and doughnutting round and round the green till they spill out, puking....
The PCSO takes three hours to walk round the twenty-odd stalls at the village car-boot sale, suspiciously perusing the wares....
Here comes the weekend. What a toilet.

[vonhosen]

Guam said:

Chrispy Porker said:

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

Hang on though dont you have a law on wasting police time to cope with that? Instead of finding new way to nick more everyday folks then maybe you should use the ones you have in a more effective manner if someone rings you up to ask how to switch their oven alarm off nick em (got to be worth at least life)


Cheers


Tom

The current law & charging criteria doesn't cover it in such circumstances.

[Chrispy Porker]

Guam said:

Chrispy Porker said:

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

Hang on though dont you have a law on wasting police time to cope with that? Instead of finding new way to nick more everyday folks then maybe you should use the ones you have in a more effective manner if someone rings you up to ask how to switch their oven alarm off nick em (got to be worth at least life)


Cheers


Tom

An example
Mental Health Act

Because the Govt will not invest in adequate provision for mentally ill people, a police cell is still deemed a place of safety where such unfortunates can be detained.
Even if, as on one occasion, I have to allocate 4 (four) officers at a time to restrain the man . Continually. For 9 hours.
I remain to be convinced that this is a proper use of resources. However as the law stands it was the duty of the police to perform this role.
I am sure the public would rather
a. the man was treated by medical staff in a hospital and
b, the police officers were out catching criminals.

[ipsg.glf]

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Edited by XMG5 on Friday 31st August 14:25

This is probably one of the most ignorance comments I've ever read on PH.

Go to the nick in your nearest largish town and ask the Duty Inspector how many officers are on duty this evening? I think you'll be suprised at how low the numbers are.

I have a few mates who are BiBs and some of the tales they tell of what they have to deal with are horrifying.

[vonhosen]

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

No it's everybody's responsibility to work together to do it for our common good.

Sir Robert Peel said:

The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

[Mad Moggie2]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

s2art said:

Chrispy Porker said:

True

Too often we are societies dustmen.

We are the ones who are always there dealing with the dregs when social services, and everyone else have put the answerphone on and gone home for the weekend.

'Can't cope, call the police' seems to be the motto for a hell of a lot of inadequates these days.

If 60% of the public could sort their own bloody lives out in a civilised manner then perhaps there would be more officers available to respond when needed.

This is a pipe dream however. In the meantime we shall carry on being criticised for doing nothing or doing too much, by anyone who has the odd 5 minutes to fill on an internet forum.

But hasnt this always been the case? The local village bobby would have been a part of the social support infrastructure as much as the keeper of the peace. No doubt in bygone times he would have clipped the ears of the local young scrotes on many an occasion. These days what are his alternatives?

He may have done, society was different then. The lack of parental responsibility and social responisbility was nothing like today. We spend the vast majoirty of our time managing the lives of those who blame all but themselves for the position they are in. All the time we are doing this is time not spent doing what we should be doing. The police service is the the service that deals wih everything. Even complaints about the time the last train leaves a local station.

Funny - the teachers are saying the same thing. They pick up the toilet training and resposniblity for these kids , etc.

Medics and nurses in particular cop a fair amount of abuse. Only we cannot arrest them. (I can choose a nasty looking syringe though and my nurse may not be overly gentle when administering to derriere Er, that's in our dreams of what we'd like to do some of the nasties we sometimes have to "help" ) After all - they'd more than likely do us for assault if we tweeked 'em "accidentally on purpose" )

[Yoda954]

vonhosen said:

No it's everybody's responsibility to work together to do it for our common good.

With the spectre of litigation ever increasing, you have absolutely no chance I'd say.

[havoc]

Yoda954 said:

vonhosen said:

No it's everybody's responsibility to work together to do it for our common good.

With the spectre of litigation ever increasing, you have absolutely no chance I'd say.

This government are criminalising all sorts of new things every week, and the police, with targets to hit, seem to be only too keen to 'nick' the typically law-abiding for momentary infringements, while the gangs, who know the score, are just too difficult.

Sorry...I've said all this before...but no-one seems to be listening so I'll say it again...


Put simply: I don't trust the police*!

• inc. CPS in that.

[GreenV8S]

vonhosen said:

Sir Robert Peel said:

The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

That quote seems to be saying that the public have a duty to do the same things that the police do, but as far as I can see the official line from the police is that MoP should never get involved, never take the law into their own hands, and never do more than call the police.

[Brett928S2]

GreenV8S said:

vonhosen said:

Sir Robert Peel said:

The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

That quote seems to be saying that the public have a duty to do the same things that the police do, but as far as I can see the official line from the police is that MoP should never get involved, never take the law into their own hands, and never do more than call the police.

Hi

If I assumed it was my DUTY to do the Polices job....hmmm..let me think...

I would buy a shotgun....blow away one or two of the local gang...which I assure you would be seen as a boon to the local shopkeepers and local area....say they threatened me with knifes (which they ALL carry)

I bet the local Bib would answer my calls then and respond....which they dont bother to do round here for anything else....

Ah well, I can dream I suppose...........

All the best Brett

Edited by Brett928S2 on Saturday 1st September 11:41

[Mr_annie_vxr]

No your right. All your kids are not your responsibility. The fact that people are no longer willing to accept responosibility for their own behaviour or actions is not mine.

Society is where it is not because of the police. Its only managing to stop from sliding further down than it already has because of work of the police fighting an ever growing lawless lack or respect attitude. Each person in society is responsible. Its beacause so many absolve that responisiblity as shown by some posts on here that we are in this mess. Until poeple accept responsibility for their own behaviour an start acting with consideration for the impact they have aupon others rather than putting their own self centred interests forward then we will continue down the slope.

As for the police failing. We are, yes I agree. Not for want of trying but every day we are asked to do more and more with less and less. Let me fight crime not deal with the other 70 % of crap and I'll give you a good service. Campaign for less rights for criminals, for longer jail terms and a complaints system that doesn't tie up hard working officers.

No-one is though. I do my bit. What do you as individuals do day in day out to preserve our society?